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Wednesday, August 27, 2008

DAP is Against A Theocratic State. So is PAS.(Updated)

It seems to me DAP and PAS has a common point that they can work on. Allow me to explain.

Referring to Lim Guan Eng statement in Malaysiakini, in which he says:

“Any proposal to turn Malaysia into a theocratic state whether an Islamic or a Christian state is contrary to our vision of a civil society that is multi-cultural and multi-religious. Further, it violates the Federal Constitution that is based on civil laws (and not on religious ones),” Lim said in his opening speech at the DAP 2008 congress.”

Looking at the Webster’s Dictionary definition for the word “theocracy”:

“1 : government of a state by immediate divine guidance or by officials who are regarded as divinely guided 2 : a state governed by a theocracy

Allow me to say that such definition does not apply to an Islamic state at all. Why? No reason apart from the fact that, in Islam only the Prophet Muhammad SAW is recognized to be infallible and thus Divinely Inspired. Other than the Prophet SAW, we are all infallible and subject to checks and balances.

That would explain why literatures on Islamic Jurisprudence range in the millions of volumes over a period of 1400 years. And in these volumes and volumes of opinions of Jurists, you will see debates and cross-checking between each other.

But a much simpler example is our own Shariah court system. If there is such a thing as a “divinely inspired officials”, then why do we have a Shariah Appeallate Court (Mahkamah Rayuan Shariah)? In other words, if a judgement at the lower Shariah court is not to your satisfaction, you can appeal the judgement at the Shariah Appalette court.

Hardly the trait of a group of Divinely Inspired people for them to have an Appalate Court in their Shariah system, wouldn’t you say? In fact, there’s even a Shariah Appallete Court in Lim Guan Eng’s own state, Penang.

Hardly a sign of "Divinely Inspired Ecclestical Elites", aren't they?. Let me repeat it once again, there is no such thing as INFALLIBILITY in Islam other than the Prophet Mohammad pbuh.

Take a look at the court structure for the Terengganu Shariah Court website on the left.


Clearly the existence of an Appeallete Court Shariah is confirmed. The same applies for Selangor Syariah Courts., as explained in their website.

All this shows there is no such thing as a “divinely inspired” elites running the jurisprudence in Islam. In fact, any Muslims claiming infallibility and gets “Divine Inspiration” is considered by Islam as being devitionists and some of them are subjected to laws of Apostasy i.e. Ahmadiyya/Qadyanni, Ayah Pin, Battiniyah etc.

Therefore, there is no truth to Guan Eng claims that PAS’s version of Islamic State is akin to a theocratic state. That’s because Islam doesn’t recognized infallibility or an acclestical elites being divinely inspired by God.

No Compulsion In Religion

In any case, it sounds very insecure of DAP to express their resistance to an “Islamic State” since the Quran clearly disallow Islam being imposed upon Non Muslims.

The Quran says in 002.256
YUSUFALI: Let there be no compulsion in religion: Truth stands out clear from Error: whoever rejects evil and believes in Allah hath grasped the most trustworthy hand-hold, that never breaks. And Allah heareth and knoweth all things. ……

And PAS has issues a very clear statement on this. That Islamic state will only be applied with the express consent of the Non Muslims in this country. So long as there is no consent, then the Islamic State will not be implemented in Malaysia.

As it is now, PAS is only interested in the application of Shariah to Muslims, thus allowing the existing Shariah court, as recognized by Article 121 (A) of the Constitution, to ejudicate on every aspect of the Shariah. On matters not touched by the Shariah, i.e. traffic laws etc, then the Civil Laws applies to all.

PAS is never interested to apply Islam and the Shariah to Non Muslims in this country. To deny the full implementation of Shariah is to prevent Muslims from practicing their religion in full.

Having said that I do recognize existing issues between Shariah and Civil courts that required addressing, but I am confident a solution can be attain.

Islam Advocates Tolerance and Understanding As Well

Lim Guan Eng also says that a secular state is necessary for a “civil society that is multi-cultural and multi-religious.”.

It think Guan Eng is confused between Secularism and Tolerance. Both are mutually exclusive to each other.

We cannot forget Stalin, Lenin, Pol Pot and many of the Communists “symbols” are all ardent secularist and they implemented secularism to the maximum. But, rarely do people consider them as examples of tolerance and understanding.

As such, the concept of tolerance is applicable under any circumstances, secular or Islamic. And as a matter of fact, concepts like freedom of expression or freedom of faith has been practiced in Islam 1400 years before the Declaration of Human Rights was enacted.

Conclusion

All I see is that there is no problem between the DAP and PAS’es ideology. If both sides are open and willing to listen to each other, the problem can be immediately resolved.

I strongly believe that DAP will not object the full application of Shariah to Muslims only and PAS is only interested in the application of Shariah to Muslims only. PAS has expressed their stand on this matter very clearly.

I also believe that most non-muslims in this country will not object to full implementation of Shariah provided it is only for Muslims and not applied to Non Muslims.


Tulang Besi.

43 comments:

adli said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
adli said...

AlhamdulilLah,... good article.

Keep up with your wisdom in expressing Islam to especially people who have not knowledge about Islam.

Yes, I agree that Islamic state is not cosmetic but rather the state of striving for excellence and goodness in all aspects of life.

Let's tell, explain, and most importantly practice such good values that will speak for themselves about the beauty of Islam.

So, DAP's people should fear not about Islam and to good muslims.

Anonymous said...

Hi,

I dare say that non muslims are not vehemently against Islam's principles. It's just the lack of knowledge coupled with the very visible fear mongering by extremists that had tarnished the religion in the eyes of non Muslims.

When you are not very conversant or knowledgeable about a religion (Islam) and with the almost all too frequent outbursts by followers of that religion that intimidates or threatens other religious beliefs, it is not hard to understand why non Muslims tends to be wary or cautious towards the Islam religion.

No one outrightly rejects or is fearful of a truly peace-loving and dynamic religion except when carried to the extreme, encroaching upon the liberty of a person of other religion.

As you had indicated, it is not impossible to bridge such divides. Better presentation of the Islam religion and outright rejection of extremism within the will bring acceptance by all.

No one will ever feel comfortable when threatened especially when kerises are raised and menacing words are uttered - even in the heat of the moment.

As the famous words that had been spoken - people can forgive but it's much, much more difficult to forget!

I do believe that Malaysians do look forward to live together in harmony amongst the differing races and religions. We had done it 45 years before and I believe we can do it again.

PK can provide that environment where extremism is banished from the face of the nation!

Purple Haze said...

Is it possible that it is the Muslims who are the ones who find this arrangement less palatable than the non-Muslims ?

Think along the lines of the Spanish Inquisition.

malayamuda said...

non Muslims should study the beauty of Islam and

muslims should study the beauty of Christianity, Hinduism, Buddhism etc etc

All religions are beautiful

amoker said...

If only the ulamaks can agree. In fact like the Saiful case, it does not seem so. And I bet that if we open up this question, there are different intepretation or vision of "Islamic" state.

But this is healthy engagement. Continue talking and not resort to intimidation when disagree.

Anonymous said...

as a non-muslim, let me list down what we are worried abt PAS....

1) implementation of islamic laws on non muslims... which is no alchoholic, no genting highland, no nightlife... today, we are in a world of globalization... hw can we, youngsters, to live in a country without entertainments(legal ones)... we should have our rights to choose hw we wanted to live n our life should be restricted by anyone... moreover, we had our freedoms to access into these entertainments for the past 50 years and we wanted it in future too... so can PAS guarantee this to us(nonmuslims) as what uve said in ur blog? n yeah, i bet the nonmuslims do not have any comments abt PAS applying shariah to muslims...

2) PAS objectives to make Malaysia into an islamic country.. i do not have to elaborate much on this...

3) despite gaining supports from nonmuslims in PR12, PAS had dialogues secretly with UMNO which is party which the Rakyat is angry at... however, thank God that ntg happens... can u ensure PAS will nvr betray the nonmuslim voters in future too??

4) will pas be another umno? im not trying to insult pas with this but i still respect all the top veteran leaders of pas.. just im worried abt the young grassroots which are the future leaders of PAS... even some of them have power-crazy mentality..
For eg. a) just after landslide victory in PR12, we already have some leaders frm PAS claiming PAS should be the backbone of pakatan n etc... PKR is a multiracial party n has the highest total of MPs is far more suitable to be the backbone.

b) as we are approaching sept 16 which anwar said to take over the gov, some PAS grassroots wanted Hadi to be PM eventhough the rakyat knows DSAI should deserve the post more than anyone else despite him going through all the pains n his hard work all this while...

c) PAS in PP also claimed they are sidelined... come on, PAS has only 1 ADUN in PP n yet they wanted to be big player in the state... DAP has 1 ADUN in kedah but he didnt ask for more...

based on all these situations which had happened, im really worried abt the future leaders of Pas... no offence to anyone ya.. im just expressing my point of view... i apologize if i offended anyone after reading my post... but as a non muslims, we are not willing to jeopardize the future of our generations in Malaysia...

lets hope DSAI will make a history for malaysia today.... good luck to u datuk seri...

Anonymous said...

our life should NOT be restricted by anyone...

just a correction.. =)

Anonymous said...

Yes, the non muslims do not wish to interfere with muslims and their religion. It is when a non muslim sees an interference on their rights, that a non muslim will go on a defensive. It is defensive and not offensive, but a lot of muslims think that non muslims are questioning muslims' right and religion. I guess this is where a lot of misundestanding arises.We have to seat down together and discuss the matter objectively, otherwise both sides will just let it "simmer quitely" and then "explode" at the slightest provocation.

Malay Muslim said...

I am a Malay and a Muslim. I do not wish to be governed by Hudud. Will you respect my right?

Anonymous said...

Berhati2....Jgn percaya2 sgt dgn DAP ni... Sbb walau ape2 pon, dlm Al Quran pon dah sebut yg org bukan Islam sampai bila2 pon takkan senang hati dgn org Islam... Jadi,walaupon DAP nak bekerjasama dgn PAS tapi mereka mesti ada agende tersendiri & tersembunyi yg tak terlihat.. Nanti hujung2 bila dah dpt kuasa penuh, masa tu baru nampak the true colour of DAP.. Jadi, kene berhati2 dari skrg...

tulang titanium said...

You want to know something tb, it would be good for PAS to stick with PR.

I think it's a good combination. They really know how to keep PAS to behave and toe the line.

Maybe this is the best way to get rid of ideological orthodoxy and conservatism. Or at least to suppress PAS's nonsense.

PAS+UMNO would be disastrous.Thank you tb. i think you've done a great job.

Mr. Padedoh said...

Mr Tulang Besi,
Greetings and tahniah on the victory of DSAI against the Rejim from the people at Padedohland.
I read with interest on your topic, you and I know that PAS-DAP is the Achilles heel of Pakatan.
However, I disagree with your solution because the solution is that typical of the way people think i.e. Action -> Intended Effect.

Classic case in point, courtesy of Khairiah and the boys
Action: Repeat Saiful Bukhari tape over and over and over and over and over and over again
Intended Effect: Malay electorate in the Kampung will believe that Anwar is hiding something and not vote him in.

What Happenned:
Initial effect was working but sub effect was that Ustaz Ramlang Porigi was getting harassed. He decided as a good Muslim, he is sick and tired of this crap and dropped the Atomic Bomb.

Final Effect: BN got whacked to pieces.

Point of my story: To do something you must thing in non-linear method. One example invented by me is the Systems Dynamics approach, and I have done by signals and will be completing my model soon.

But to think thru Systems Approach you need Padedoh. hihhihih

Wenger J Khairy
Rembau

Shai-Hulud said...

Ah well we've already had 51 years of "tolerance". One tolerates an unpleasant stimulus. You know what's better than "tolerance"?

Acceptance.

But baby steps first...

Mr. Padedoh said...

Acceptance and tolerance are levels in the System Dynamics models. You are right there - essentially Acceptance was there as a level but BN tried its level best to destroy it.

When we look at System Dynamics, we model all the factors that lead to increased/decreased levels of tolerance and acceptance, we call this the 'flows', 'rates' or 'signal'

Right now, from a technical point of view, they will be a strong rebound in this level, because of the level of spin directed by BN to break this down. Trust me, the directive will go out very quickly to TV3 to stop playing on the racial religious sentiment.

This is not because BN has suddenly become good, they are evil to the bone and in their DNA. It is a question of survival.

BN leadership must have some credibility when they stand on the pedestal with His Majesty the YDP during National Day.

What we look at is, what happens after Merdeka and during Ramadan. I feel a truce will be struck between Pak Lah and Pakatan - they will drop the charges against Anwar, because it is going to be counter productive.

In return, there will no September 16 take over. I predict the mediator will come from the Palace.

My model does not go further than circa end September. Will refine and tell you when that happens.

Kerajaan Rakyat said...

With this good article, we do hoped
that all Malaysian can understand
clearer on the beauty of Islam.

Regards and Salam.

Anonymous said...

Dear Tulang Besi,

Your Webster's definition unnecessarily clouds the meaning of 'theocracy' which is a rule (-cracy) by God (theo-).

Like all terms -- including your bĂȘte noire 'secular' -- the interpretations are multivalent.

I disagree that this is exclusive to rule by the divinely inspired; rather, it may be much more mundane, encompassing the use of religious texts as jurisprudential sources.

That said, theocracy -- in this case, the system of Shariah -- is not necessarily a bad thing. Nor are Western (or any other) legal systems. It all comes down to justice being served justly.

I think that Muslims and non-Muslims alike are uncomfortable with theocratic laws because the legislative process for determining the way civil society is governed is (perceived to be) sidelined or replaced by interpretation by a religious elite.

There is no reason that we have to start from a point of relativism, saying that one group should have their laws and another theirs. Let us have this discussion with input from all religions and with a goal of unifying the country.

Emmar

Anonymous said...

Maaf...out of topic

Alternate way to Malaysia Today
http://202.75.62.114/2008/

Tulang Besi said...

Emmar says:

"Your Webster's definition unnecessarily clouds the meaning of 'theocracy' which is a rule (-cracy) by God (theo-)."

REPLY: Actually Emmar, you are providing your own definition for the word.

The real Webster definition is the one I quoted verbatim in my article.

Anonymous said...

Tulang Besi replied:

>REPLY: Actually Emmar, you are >providing your own definition for >the word.

>The real Webster definition is >the one I quoted verbatim in my article.

Well thank you for making my point for me. While the etymologies of the words we use are useful, there is no such thing as a 'real' meaning for many of them. (Perhaps Noah Webster would agree.)

Like (religious and other) debates among mixed social groups, language needs to be approached in a flexible manner.

...and of all the parts of my comment to respond to...man, talk about missing the point.

Emmar

MarGeeMar said...

What is unique about PKR is that it is multiracial in name and in ambition, but its top leaders are Malays. This last detail is what makes many Malaysians believe and hope that PKR has a bright future. Multiracialism proposed by non-Malays cannot but fail. It is a doctrine that can succeed in Malaysia only if members of the majority community are its most vocal proponents...More http://margeemar.blogspot.com

Stanley Teoh said...

I am NOT against ANY religion. The way Islam was projected by the Middle East Muslims, especially the terrorists, frightens not only me but the rest of the world. Imagine, holding up a SEVERED head of an INNOCENT Korean or Japanese, in their left hand and holding a big knife in their right , shouting " Allahuakbah !" Looking at these images, can you blame the rest OF THE WORLD for being fearful AND DOUBTFUL of Islam ? When these atrocities were committed by MUSLIMS in Irag, the reaction from our country's MUSLIMS were muted. They DID NOT come out forcefully enough and UNEQUIVOCABLY CONDEMN such atrocities by FELLOW MUSLIMS ! It 'seems' the Malaysian Muslims were 'supportive' of such atrocities,'in the name of ALLAH' committed on NON-MUSLIMS. I don't mind, as long as NON-Muslims are left alone, and not be harrassed by so-called MUSLIM MORAL POLICE, who are no better themselves ! I can be friends with my fellow Muslim MALAYSIAN, but I don't trust the way ISLAM is being practised in Malaysia. Read the daily newspaper and you'll see what I mean....false conversion( just to kawin), body snatching,refusing a convert to convert OUT( Penang woman' case), arbitrarilly annuling a marriage contracted under the CIVIL LAW, young DBKL moral officer( not qualified) arresting NON-MUSLIM for holding hands, DBKL MORAL enforcer trying to extort money..... the list goes on.Can I trust Islamic PRATICERS OF MALAYSIA ? No. Not yet.

Serious Shepherd said...

Stanley Teoh,

Where were you during the Balkan War when the events like Srebrenica genocide or how a UNESCO heritage site was demolished? Or the Tak Bai incident? Or the Haditha massacre? Unfortunately, the list goes on, and the most recent is the airstrike launched towards civilians in Afghanistan.

At the same time, it is unfair to generalize that all Christians are Radovan Karadzic or all Buddhists are Thaksin Shinawatra. It would be nice if non-Muslims like yourself understand the situation 1st e.g. why Muslims attacked cities in Mindanao.

Why look at how the secular UMNO practises their unpopular Islam Hadhari? Why don't you look at Kelantan for a start.

Anonymous said...

I think the issue here is not Hudud Laws for Muslims and Civil Laws for non Muslims. For non-Muslims, the concern is what happens if there is a dispute between a Muslim and a non-Muslim. Or in a more grey area like when a non-Muslim converts to Islam. Which Laws shall we follow as evidenced by several examples of failed marriages. This is precisely what Bar Council is trying to sort it out during a recent forum but was labelled as anti-Muslims.

Anonymous said...

1) "Kedah says no to gyrations, bans concerts"

2) "Solat hajat PAS sebelum konsert Avril"


im getting really pissed and tired of PAS now.... why cant they just ban the muslims from the concert n leave the non muslims alone.... we, the non muslims want our freedom of life n who are they to control our life?? why do they want the non muslims to live in their type of life??

LEAVE US ALONE!!!! we vote for u hoping u can bring justice n fairness to us, NOT RESTRICTIONS on us!!!! respect malaysia as a multiracial country not islamic country.... orelse, u will be facing the tsunami instead of BN in PR13...

can the blogger of this site guarantee the freedom of non muslim if we vote for PAS in the nxt PRU???

Serious Shepherd said...

Anonymous 5:59 PM 29/8

A concert of a female artist who enjoys showing her middle finger is not a religious practice by any religion. Is showing middle finger allowed in your religion? Do you teach your kids to show middle finger?

Anonymous said...

>> Serious Shepherd said...
A concert of a female artist who enjoys showing her middle finger is not a religious practice by any religion. Is showing middle finger allowed in your religion? Do you teach your kids to show middle finger?

.....
I didn't realize her concert had to feature 'religious practice[s]'.

So she stuck out her middle finger...and that justifies banning her?

lighten up and stop trying to ban forms of expression -- in this case, not one that necessarily carries much local meaning -- with which you disagree.

(e.g., concerts, bar council meetings...and the list goes on...)

Emmar

Serious Shepherd said...

"lighten up and stop trying to ban forms of expression "

The Chinese electorates disagree with Kerismuddin's form of expression and punished his party during the political tsunami of March 8. Of course, Kerismuddin also wanted to carry a local meaning, in which even I disagree. And I didn't see him anywhere at Permatang Pauh during the by-election.

Anonymous said...

All I see is that there is no problem between the DAP and PAS’es ideology. If both sides are open and willing to listen to each other, the problem can be immediately resolved
----------------------------------
Yes,agree.Now,DAP,PSM r socialists,n believers in western style democracy,equality and justice.PAS,on the other hand is the torch bearer of Asian democracy(which is based on spritual/religious realities).The truest meaning of equality,oneness ,justice can be found in the quran,the vedanta,and even early christianity.So,no worries lah.

Anonymous said...

"Solat hajat PAS sebelum konsert Avril"

sangat memalukan malaysia!!! its a big INSULT towards avril n canadian... as a malaysian, im feeling so ashamed now... we will be the laughing stock among the ASEAN n even western countries.... thx to PAS, those other famous artists will reconsider Malaysia as their destination...

all malaysians can only enjoy watching wayang kulit n chinese opera in future... thats malaysia's vision 2020.... thx u PAS... ill c u in PR13...

serious shepherd,
dont relate kerismuddin with avril lavigne... its diff story... 1 is performing as a racist vs 1 is performing as an artist... see the picture?

Anonymous said...

SS,

Hisamuddin's raising of the keris was very much unlike AL's raising of her middle finger.

One (the former) is an expression of hegemonic power, the other is an f***-you to power.

One is "punished" by the electorate, the other is a punitive sanction by an ideology (not Islam, but a political-religious sect that uses certain interpretations of Islam to justify its acts) against a perceived 'threat'.

My question is: how far can we expect that repression of thoughts and expression will carry us?

If you say that thought repression is already a fact in this country (as you have in another thread), then are you suggesting that more is okay as long as it is just a different type?

And back to the original issue (since the topic is too complex to generalize), what exactly do you fear will happen if AL performs for Malaysians?

Your Truly,
Emmar

Anonymous said...

Was there a solat hajat b4 the concert?sheesh.....Avril means no harm, n we must always remember supply demand theory..dia perform kat sini sebab permintaan ada..why blame her?dont lah be so overzealous..we r all human beings n none of us r perfect..look at those fraksi UMNO's who sembahyang 5 kali sehari,but still so greedy for postions,n so ambitious!!

Anonymous said...

Ya,Husam Musa was right.people r not walis,yogis, saints or mystics,n countries r not ashrams.Yes,only in ashrams,monastaries,spirtiul hide outs,u can see no alcohol,no sex,no drugs,no entertainment,no excessive food.Hopefully the "zealots" understand this fact.

Anonymous said...

SRI AUROBINDO

BANDE MATARAM

Early Political Writings. 1890 - May 1908

Asiatic Democracy

Asia is not Europe and never will be Europe. The political ideals of the West are not the mainspring of the political movements in the East, and those who do not realise this great truth, are mistaken; for they suppose that the history of Europe is a sure and certain guide to India in her political development. A great deal of the political history of Europe will be repeated in Asia, no doubt; Democracy has travelled from the East to the West in the shape of Christianity, and after a long struggle with the feudal instincts of the Germanic races has returned to Asia transformed and in a new body. But when Asia takes back democracy into herself she will first transmute it in her own temperament and make it once more Asiatic. Christianity was an assertion of human equality in the spirit, a great assertion of the unity of the divine spirit in man, which did not seek to overthrow the established systems of government and society but to inform them with the spirit of human brotherhood and unity. It was greatly hampered in this work by the fact that the European races were in a state of transition from the old Aryan civilisation of Greece and Rome to one less advanced and enlightened. The German nations were wedded to a military civilisation which was wholly inconsistent with the ideals of Christianity, and the new religion in their hands became a thing quite unrecognisable to the Asiatic mind which had engendered it. When Mahomedanism appeared, Christianity vanished out of Asia, because it had lost its meaning. Mahomed tried to re-establish the Asiatic gospel of human equality in the spirit. All men are equal in Islam, – whatever their social position or political power, – nor is any man debarred from the full development of his manhood by his birth or low original station in life. All men are brothers in Islam and the bond of religious unity overrides all other divisions and differences. But Islam also was limited and imperfect, because it confined the ideal of brotherhood and equality to the limits of a single creed, and was further deflected from its true path by the rude and undeveloped races which it drew into its embrace. Another revelation of the old truth is needed.

Anonymous said...

When man is free in spirit, all other freedom is at his command; for the Free is the Lord who cannot be bound. When he is liberated from delusion, he perceives the divine equality of the world which fulfils itself through love and justice, and this perception transfuses itself into the law of government and society. When he has perceived this divine equality, he is brother to the whole world, and in whatever position he is placed he serves all men as his brothers by the law of love, by the law of justice. When this perception becomes the basis of religion, of philosophy, of social speculation and political aspiration, then will liberty, equality and fraternity take their place in the structure of society and the satyayuga return. This is the Asiatic reading of democracy...It is the dharma of every man to be free in soul, bound to service not by compulsion but by love; to be equal in spirit, ap portioned his place in society by his capacity to serve society, not by the interested selfishness of others; to be in harmonious relations with his brother men, linked to them by mutual love and service, not by shackles of servitude, or the relations of the exploiter and the exploited, the eater and the eaten. It has been said that democracy is based on the rights of man; it has been replied that it should rather take its stand on the duties of man; but both rights and duties are European ideas. Dharma is the Indian conception in which rights and duties lose the artificial antagonism created by a view of the world which makes selfishness the root of action, and regain their deep and eternal unity. Dharma is the basis of democracy which Asia must recognise, for in this lies the distinction between the soul of Asia and the soul of Europe. Through dharma the Asiatic evolution fulfils itself; this is her secret.

Tulang Besi said...

Anon writes:

"sangat memalukan malaysia!!! its a big INSULT towards avril n canadian... as a malaysian, im feeling so ashamed now... we will be the laughing stock among the ASEAN n even western countries.... thx to PAS, those other famous artists will reconsider Malaysia as their destination..."

REPLY: In my opinion the ban on the concert should be limited to non muslims only.

As for Muslims, the character Avril is exactly what Islam has been preaching it's followers not to emulate.

Anonymous said...

"REPLY: In my opinion the ban on the concert should be limited to non muslims only.

As for Muslims, the character Avril is exactly what Islam has been preaching it's followers not to emulate."


yupz... totally agree with you bro... why want to drag non muslims down with you... just ban the muslims from the concert, end of story!!! the non muslims will be glad if u can respect our freedom in this country... just spare the non muslims from your hudud law n everyone will be happy with u, PAS!!

Anonymous said...

Tulang Besi said: REPLY: In my opinion the ban on the concert should be limited to non muslims only.
.......

For some reason, I think you stated the opposite of your point.

Are you suggesting that all non-Muslims should be forbidden from going?

(I'm not sure what religion AL and her band members practice but that ban would probably encompass most, if not all, of the performers. Might as well just cancel the event.)

All snarks aside, I am not a fan of AL but I reject those who say that I, as a Muslim, am forbidden from going to her concert.

We are not children, nor do we necessarily "emulate" something that we observe. If that were the case, you will need to ban a lot more than just one concert.

Please do not allow your sinful misinterpretations and fanaticisms to manifest into totalitarian public policy.

Emmar

Anonymous said...

And just one additional point, particularly for the "me toos" parroting the comments that favor restricting our freedoms.

...

This type of segregation of society for one social or ethnic group or another has been known by other names and in other places...

Apartheid

Jim Crow

Ghettos


all of which were deemed suitable at the time because of the characteristics of the society-at-large.

Indeed, there were those in the minority groups who submitted to the dicta of the powerful majority.

They were called "collaborators" or "Uncle Toms".

Some were racist and exclusionary too, and undoubtedly happy with the situation.

We have, in a nutshell, these same dynamics at work in Malaysia. Do not view this concert as the issue, it is merely the symptom of a deeper illness.

Emmar

Anonymous said...

Kira-kira 20 anggota Dewan Pemuda PAS Wilayah Persekutuan dan Selangor menunaikan solat maghrib dan diikuti solat hajat di kawasan lapang tepi tempat letak kereta depan stadium(frm malaysiakini)
-----------------------------------

aah,ther u r..20 fellas only..;-)

Anonymous said...

SRI AUROBINDO

BANDE MATARAM

Early Political Writings. 1890 - May 1908

Asiatic Democracy

...When the feudal system was broken in Europe by the rise of the middle class, the ideals of Christianity began to emerge once more to light, but by this time the Christian Church had itself become feudalised, and the curious spectacle presents itself of Christian ideals struggling to establish themselves by the destruction of the very institution which had been created to preserve Christianity. When the ideals of liberty, equality and fraternity were declared at the time of the French Revolution and mankind demanded that society should recognise them as the foundation of its structure, they were associated with a fierce revolt against the relics of feudalism and against the travesty of the Christian religion which had become an integral part of that feudalism. This was the weakness of European democracy and the source of its failure. It took as its motive the rights of man and not the dharma of humanity; it appealed to the selfishness of the lower classes against the pride of the upper; it made hatred and internecine war the permanent allies of Christian ideals and wrought an inextricable confusion which is the modern malady of Europe. It was in vain that the genius of Mazzini rediscovered the heart of Christianity and sought to remodel European ideas; the French Revolution had become the starting-point of European democracy and coloured the European mind. Now that democracy has returned to Asia, its cradle and home, it will be purged of its foreign elements and restored to its original purity. The movements of the nineteenth century in India were European movements, they were coloured with the hues of the West. Instead of seeking for strength in the spirit, they adopted the machinery and motives of Europe, the appeal to the rights of humanity or the equality of social status and an impossible dead level which Nature has always refused to allow....
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PKR,PAS r in the rite direction...n DAP showing some positive signs..

Anonymous said...

oh yes,wit or without avril,all sorts of "kehaprakan" is happening in this country commited by muslims n non muslim.. look @ those songkok wearing sembahyang lima kali who ambik rasuah,n those pot bellied pundits/swamis who sembahyang kuat everday but do all sorts of filty nasty things...sorrylah brudders n sisters..life is quite complex ..n morals laws/preachings aint enuff to korek korek adverse situations ..."somethin else" is needed..dats 4 sure

Anonymous said...

SRI AUROBINDO

BANDE MATARAM

Early Political Writings. 1890 - May 1908

The Writing on the Wall

When things violent or fearful take place let no one be alarmed or discouraged – they also are "His goings forth". That there will be only the piping time of peace and we shall sing of the cuckoo and the spring is expecting something unnatural. An individial or a nation cannot rise to its full height except through trouble and stress. The stone block patiently submits to hammering, cutting and chiselling to be made into the statue which pleases the eye and gladdens the soul. If it could feel, it certainly would say, "How dearly I have to pay for the beautiful transformation." This is the inexorable law of nature. Nature has not yet been known to relent in this respect. If you want to get anything grand and beautiful out of her, you must go through the process through which a piece of stone passes before it is endowed with shape, beauty and meaning. The fertilising river rolls down stones, breaks through the impediments, rends asunder the surface of the earth before it bears on its bosom the argosies and crowns the bordering lands with plenty. Those who cannot look this sternness of nature in the face are not destined for things good, noble and high. If you want to grovel in the dust, indolence, ease and ignoble peace may do, but if climbing up the heights of glory is your ambition learn to encounter difficulties and dangers manfully. This is apt to be ignored and ridiculed as a copybook maxim. But it bears repetition times without number and when either an individual or a nation sets about anything earnestly it should start fully impressed with the truth of this copybook commonplace. The truth cannot be confirmed enough and thus the threats of the Anglo-Indian Press have hardly any terror for us.

The Anglo-Indian Press whenever they find that their arguments are seen through, that what is at the back of their minds is at once discovered, that their professions and protestations are taken at their worth, fall to using threats and throw out dark hints as if the people do not know that they cannot regain their independence without a fearful struggle. The Anglo-Indian Press are really nervous at our getting at the truth about political salvation and their arguments about our weakness and incompetency backed by the opinion of the moderate school of politicians in the country are systematically alternated with the arguments of fire and sword. When they cannot coax us into acquiescing in servitude, they want to argue us into it and failing that too, they brandish the sword. The London Times, its namesake in Bombay, the Pioneer, the Englishman, all tried to win over the Congress suddenly changing their attitude of supreme contempt towards the National Assembly of a quarter of a century's standing. But as soon as the news that the extremist programme found favour with the 22nd National Congress was flashed across the seas, the "Thunderer" at once cabled to us that India was won by the sword and will in the last resort be held by the sword. Since then these Anglo-Indian Journals are trying both mild and violent ways. The more the desire for independence seems to be in evidence, the more the signs of the times point to that direction, the more they gnash their teeth, tear their hair and beat their breast. At every fresh proof of reawakening more blood is sent to their eyes and head. Their conduct gives the lie direct to the vaunted profession – that the English people are everywhere the upholders, the representatives, the leaders of the two great interests of a people – Freedom and Justice. The demand of the Egyptian General Assembly has only provoked their laughter. The granting of a constitution to Persia is according to them a move in the wrong direction. They have given the Amir a taste of the flirtation of Western civilisation. They want to retain their spell over those whom they have already enthralled and are ever in quest of fresh victims. Surrender your life, your liberty, your birth-rights to the English nation, go on ministering to their comforts and pleasures and you are credited with common sense, prudence, intelligence and all other mental equipments. But if you think of making any strides in the direction of manhood – if you take it into your head to hold your own in the conflict of interests – if you show the least sign of walking with your head erect you are damned wretches fit for the jail and gallows because it has been settled once for all in the wise dispensations of Providence, that you are to sow and they are to reap, that you are to buy and they are to sell, that you are to be killed and they are to kill, that you are to be deprived of arms while they are to be in their full possession, that you will use arms for nefarious purposes while they will wield them to defend themselves. What else can these ridiculous effusions of the Calcutta Englishman mean?:

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