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Saturday, August 9, 2008

How Could BAR Council Be So Stupid??

Also, I do know the need for freedom of speech, but freedom of speech entails responsibility. And to use such freedom in a way that will cause unnecessary tension and havoc is truly contradictory to the spirit of the freedom of speech. Trust me on this.


It’s a great idea for BAR Council to organize an open forum that touches on the religious sensitivity of the people of Malaysia at a juncture when Malaysia is about to undergo major political transformation.

Think, BAR Council, think, What kind of tangible gain from this forum can they get? The answer is absolutely nothing. The Muslims will not budge from their stand as seen by the impromptu demonstration organized by PEMBELA. If the issue was raised earlier, I can guarantee the crowd will have easily increased ten-fold.

At a time when Anwar Ibrahim is facing a by-election in a 70% Malay constituency, a sensitive issue like this is exactly what UMNO needs to carry the issue. I firmly believe that Bar Coucil has been compromised and that they are now operating in tandem with UMNO’s agenda.

At the juncture when PAS is facing a serious identity crisis, such a forum will only galvanize PAS to reject PAkatan Rakyat even more? And why can’t Bar Council organize a close door meetings with relevant religious authority and try to find a common agenda that can be shared together.

Just imagine, if Bar Council and Islamic NGOs can issue a joint statement advocating changes in the system that will take care of all grouses and worries on the part of the Non Muslims in Malaysia. Wouldn’t that be more productive minus the unnecessary tension?

Now, because of Bar Council abject stupidity, UMNO can go into the Permatang Pauh by-election with a bullet in hand courtesy of the Bar Council stupidity. I agree with Anwar’s stand that having an open forum like so will only raise tension that is totally undesirable.

It’s clear the Bar Council is not interested in a viable solution, They’re only interested in fanning unnecessary tension that will end up with benefits being sowed by Barisan Nasional.

And since when do we get pointers on religion and morality from lawyers anyways.
There’s a Christian joke I read about lawyers which I would like to share with readers:

“A man died and went to the gates of St Peter. Suddenly, he realized that when he died he didn’t leave behind a will. So, he thought of writing one and send it back down to earth. Therefore, he needs to consult a lawyer to write a proper will. He went to his mentor and ask whether he can meet a lawyer in Heaven. His mentor open his list of “heaven dwellers” and said: “We have Gandhi and Abraham Lincoln here in Heaven. And that’s just about it”

From their track record, I’ve seen that Bar Council is only interested in Social reengineering agenda and not really have the interest of the people of Malaysia at heart. Much of their social reengineering agenda has been proven to be non-economically viable in the West and slowly dying a natural death. But here in Malaysia, they’re trying to push for defunct and defected social policies down our throats. No wonder their call is not popular at all.

Notice, there was no demonstration when they organized a forum on Malay Rights.
Also, on the issue of apostasy, the issue has been dealt with by the Malaysian Syariah system. Please read my earlier article here for more details.

Having said that, I do recognize that there are still impending problem streamlining the Syariah and Civil system in Malaysia, but what Bar council is trying to do is far from reaching an amicable solution. It’s nothing but an act of wild provocation on the part of Muslims in Malaysia. It’s also an attempt to sell defected social policies to the Muslim mass which as we can see has failed miserably.

Also, I do know the need for freedom of speech, but freedom of speech entails responsibility. And to use such freedom in a way that will cause unnecessary tension and havoc is truly contradictory to the spirit of the freedom of speech. Trust me on this.

I just pray to Allah that such shenanigan of the Bar Council will not effect Anwar Ibrahim’s chances of recapturing Permatang Pauh.

Tulang Besi

99 comments:

alhadee said...

RC,

Where is the demonstration for Malay Rights forum when UMNO organized it?

PAS is a hypocrite party. PAS FOR ALL is just a lie.

But ofcourse, it came as a no surprise when the President and Deputy are proven liars.

Anonymous said...

Tulang besi,

If not NOW then when?

When DSAI formed the new govt?

When wawasan 2020 comes & goes?

The day the Malay can throw the NEP away?

The day ketuanan melayu remains a historical note?

Simply put - if U dont put your sensitivity to OPEN test, U will FOREVER find excuses to confront the issues raised by your sensitivity!

AND its better now then just procrastinate till kingdom comes.

The world does not revolves around Malay, & for that matter Muslim only.

Islam ask HIS followers to face any challenges in order to advance. AND yet here U are trying to hide behind the veil of 'malayalised' Islam!

Tulang Besi said...

anon August 9, 2008 6:52 PM asks "if not now then when"?

I answer, is there a need to have the open forum in the first place?

Didn't I say that what is needed is a joint statement by both side to propose an amicable solution that will solve the problem at hand?

The idea of an open forum itself is stupid and will not lead to anything productive.

In short, it's a waste of time and energy

Tulang Besi said...

err Alhadee,

Secularists are liars too. Go ask Lenin and Stalin.

oh wait they don't have to lie, they just commit genocide.

alhadee said...

well well RC, wat do u know!

I said 'a no surprise when the President and Deputy are proven liars.'

He replies 'Secularists are liars too. Go ask Lenin and Stalin.'

So Hadi Awang and Nasa = Lenin and Stalin. Thus the equation 'PAS = Communist Party of ex USSR'

Nice.

Tulang Besi said...

well Alhadee err,

First of all, the President did not lie. The Deputy maybe because most of the talks are done behind his back.

Secondly, their crime is pale compared the one committed by your secular fathers, Lenin and Stalin.

SO, i guess you're barking up the wrong tree

alhadee said...

Hello RC, Melayu mudah lupa eh?

http://www.harakahdaily.net/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=15442&Itemid=115
=============
Isu kerjasama PAS dan Umno
Dato' Seri Tuan Guru Abdul Hadi Awang
Sat | Jun 28, 08 | 11:02:27 am MYT

Setelah kita mengeluarkan kenyataan rasmi atas isu fitnah kerjasama kepimpinan PAS dan Umno pada dua minggu yang lalu,"

"PAS dengan ini menegaskan sekali lagi bahawa tidak ada sebarang rundingan kerjasama dengan Umno/BN.

Sebarang tuduhan kerjasama atau cadangan itu adalah dinafikan oleh kepimpinan tertinggi PAS yang sedar bahawa kemenangan yang diperolehi dari Pilihanraya Umum baru-baru ini adalah harapan seluruh lapisan rakyat pelbagai kaum dan agama"
============

Yup, dats on 28th June. Before Pak Lah exposed there exists talks on coperation between UMNO and PAS and after that acknowledged by the liar Hadi Awang.

Liar! Liar! Serban on fire!

Tulang Besi said...

eerr Alhadee,

Is your brain not firing on all cylinders.

Which is worse? Lying because the President was misinformed and even Mahfuz apologized.

or killing 60 million people combined by fathers of secularism, Lenin and Stalin?

alhadee said...

RC, RC,

Hang memang pandai wat aku gelak.

You are funny la man!

We talk about Hadi and Nasa as liars. What that got to do with Stalin and Lenin eh?

Where is the proof that the President is misinformed? Where is his statement apologizing for all his lies and deceit?

Hello, Mahfuz apologized not on behalf of PAS but for his personal self. He stated that very clearly. Want me to paste here his apology?

Or are you now a liar too RC. Oh yes, 500 terrorists as reported by Harakah but Malaysiakini only reported 300 talibans are there to protest the forum.

So who is lying now.. let me see.. Judging by the recent behavior of PAS, my bet is on Harakah.

So there are missing 16,999,700 Muslims at the protest.

Give it up la brader. You are fighting a losing battle. SOmetimes I do pity you. Kesian. TKO calls you SB la.

Tulang Besi said...

Err alhadee,
Maybe it's because compared to lenin and Stalin, the father of modern day secularism, what Nasa did is pale in comparison

Now wait, didn't I already said that or is it because you have problem in reading?

alhadee said...

Hahahaha

RC oh RC,

So lying and deceits to millions of Malaysian is halal because Lenin kills people?


Errr... I think your serban is too tight la. Can you loose it up so blood can now start flowing to ur brain?

That is assuming you have brain to start with.

Anonymous said...

It is quite a stretch to get from secular to Lenin/Stalin, and doing so does not engage the debate.

This Bar Council event has, if anything, laid bare some real issues that some serious people -- Muslim and non-Muslim if we really need to draw those distinctions -- have with limits on public debate.

PKR has probably fared the worse by having alienated those who see in it a party that bridges all the tired exploitation of distinctions among groups in Malaysia.

PKR would have done better to engage the Bar Council calmly -- instead, of an an almost-tangible ideal of a unified and peaceful Malaysia under Anwar's imminent leadership, we hear the sound of a toilet flushing.

What a shame for all of us.

MR

Tulang Besi said...

MR,

Please read my article again. I never said that real problems does not exist.

But what is needed is a completely different platform.

And there must be a joint stand taken by Bar Council and PEMBELA or Muslim NGO on a solution that can be shared.

Having an open forum like this only leads to unnecessary problems that has no bearing or significance at all.

At the end of the day, do you see the problem getting solved? No. what u see is the people getting fragmented.

Do you see why it's weird that UMNO is on the side of the protestors this time around.

All work towards bringing true reforms will be derailed becuase of this insignificant event.

alhadee said...

MR,

Agreed. This issue must be discussed openly. No need to talk thru backside and in the dark like Hadi Awang and Nasa did with UMNO.

But what else could you expect from Tulang Besi? He is just following the example of the maksum liar Hadi Awang and Nasa.

Hence, his support for the 300 mini Talibans who wanted to storm the hall ala Taliban.

I dont understand this type of people. You see how they praises Ahmad Deedat because the old man could go and debate with priests on the topic of Islam vs Christianity.

They go and distribute it freely among Malaysians. I remember my friend got the VHS last time. It was selling like hot cakes.

So they are very proud when they have great debators like Ahmad Deedat.

They forget that this only could happen because in the West, secularism ensure that there are no "Ketuanan Kristian" and ensure that no special protection for any particular religion.

Anyone like Ahmad Deedat is given the liberty and freedom to criticize Christianity, to do his method of Dakwah in a country where Christians are the majority.

And fundamentalists Islamist like to brag about Islam being the fastest growing religion in the West although they have no figures to prove it.

Assuming this is true, this is because they are free to preach about Islam, to openly compare Islam and other religion and in doing so protected by the secular oriented government of the West.

But in Malaysia, this same Islamists claim that Islam is under threat although no one can criticize Islam openly. Only Muslim can criticize other religion and not vice versa.

Amazing isn't it?

In the West where there is no special protection for any religion, people embrace Islam in droves.

But in Malaysia, where there is a lot of protection, these Islamists claim people denounce Islam in droves.

Could it be that in a Secular and Liberal system, Islam will fare better?

Think about it.

p/s. Support Secular and Liberal Malaysia. Let's get rid of liar Mullahs once and for all.

Tulang Besi said...

Alhadee is operating in a completely different dimension.

To have an open forum like this will only invite disaster.

And it's expected from Islamophobe like Alhadee to dislike such move and label them as Taleban.

but, the truth remain that it is a sensitive issue and to play it the way AlHadee advocate will not solve the problem at all.

But, you're free to follow ALhadee despite him representing the voice of a bunch of insignificant number of Muslims.

I think it's wiser to follow the voice of the majority.

And if the majority can come up with 500+ people on a short notice, how many of Alhadee kind did appear, may I ask?

So, best to put Alhadee's advice in a box, lock it and throw away the key.

hahahahaha this alhadee dude makes me laugh.

Anonymous said...

Tulang Besi,

I took your advice and re-read your article.

What stands out is your belief that problems can be solved by "organiz[ing] a close [sic] door meetings with relevant religious authority" (for which I presume your use of the singular is intentional).

Rather than being critical of your opinion, I will merely point out that some (including myself) might prefer to have a more inclusive dialogue -- not one that is determined for us by a paternalistic cabal of religious and political elite who have helped lead us to this point in the first place.

And I disagree that this forum "only leads to unnecessary problems." The problems are, most prominently, the loud-mouthed hot heads that likely have no clue as to what was (or was to be) discussed. It is understandable that people will react this way -- concepts that they hold to dearly, such as ideas indoctrinated over the years by our national government as well as transnational religious discourses are, in their views, under threat -- but the country's problems will only change when we all learn to build bridges by listening carefully and deeply and trying to understand things from the perspective of the 'other.'

So, events like these are far from insignificant. I repeat my early statement that they lay bare certain difficult truths. If we are not working toward addressing our sensitivities over dialogue, your ideal of "true reforms" will remain just that -- a jingoistic ideal.

MR

Anonymous said...

Dear Saudara Tulang Besi,

I respect your courage in defending issues which you feel are close to your heart. I genuinely believe that you are interested in democracy, toleranci and better future for our country.

To this end, you believe that Saudara Anwar Ibrahim is the only/best option.

Thus, your efforts night and day to support and champion his cause/party/opposition cause.

You rightfully brought up a very stupid decision organized by the bar council, who biasalah, nak cipta glamour. You think that this can be misused by UMNO.

Actually, sorry brader, the only political path to Malaysia peace and prosperity is thru UMNO. Only thru UMNO can there be the check and balance required so that sensitive issues like this will not be discussed in the open.

I salute the leader of GPMS for bravely confronting the leaders of this troublesome forum.

Anyway, i have predicted, that the Anwar saga will soon be over. There will be no change in Govt by Sept 16. To his credit, he was strong opposition caused us a lot of problem, but his time will soon pass and only UMNO will be around.

I say take your time, I dont expect you to drop your current allegiance. And i will respect your decision as its not that of the other political tikus running around claiming he has 6 MAGIC boxes, but do know, that there is no chance for the country, aside thru UMNO's dominance.

We can also support Pak Lah while we are at it.

WK

alhadee said...

WK,

Why invite him openly la? You think he will agree if you do?

You must do what Pak Lah and Hadi did. Invite secretly, talk about power sharing, then let Tulang Besi deny he ever talk to you and etc.

Follow the PAS procedure in deceit la brader. Only then it will be Halal. And certified by JAKIM!

Anonymous said...

Sedara Alhadhe,

Tulang Besi is a man driven by ideals, ada martabat. Dia masuk ikut pintu hadapan. Kalau yang lain nak masuk, nak dapat habuan, tu ikut pintu belakang. Itu kita kata rezeki.
WK

Anonymous said...

Tulang besi,
You are right. This is not the time to hold the forum. Lets see how the UMNO use this card for their advantage at the PP election.

Ronaldkp said...

Do you think the Bar Council is a 'tool' to break up Pakatan Rakyat?

For us , we must not do anything to break up Pakatan Rakyat?

As we told you always,some of PAS members have 'weakspots' of religious zeal and people can manipulate this weakness.All religious groups have these 'zealots'.

We think Tok Guru Nik Aziz will take control of things, over time.

Raj said...

Dear Tulang Besi,

I fully agree with your comments. I fail to understand how the bar council can be so stupid to adamantly go ahead with this forum at this critical junction in our nations political development. There is so many other issues that the bar council need to look into urgently like deaths in police custody, conditions in our prison system, ISA, OSA etc,etc.
I also hope our Dear YB Karpal Singh doesn't come out with his own bull headed statements on this matter to further inflame the situation

Anonymous said...

I agree with you. Bar could have waited a little longer until the political situation in Malaysia takes a shape.
But I also pity Malays and Muslims in Malaysia for allowing politicians to exploit and manipulate them by instilling fear of religious disharmony should non-Malays speak about Islam. They should grow up!

suresh

Anonymous said...

my dear fellow Malaysians,

Tulang Besi is right. This forum produce nothing productive but a play card for UMNO on the Malay/Islamic sentiment again. Its not a rocket science to understand it is a trap but is amazing even some veteran politician especially from DAP keep falling into it again and again.

Why they keep wasting their time playing this race/religious game with UMNO/BN that can never win?

50 years of brainwashed by UMNO/BN can never change in a single day!!

Save the energy to first save our beloved country from corruptions and abuse of power by helping to form a strong PR as an alternative to BN which should be our first priority!!

Tulang Besi,

I am a chinese and i like to read your blog! You had my full support on this.

TKY

Anonymous said...

Ni Hao Mah?

You'll wonder why DAP dumbos keep falling into it. Because they are dumbos, UMNO is the ace, UMNO can play it again and again, because only UMNO can rule.

So stop dreaming of a pkr+dap+pas govt cause its not going to happen.

just work with the system, u must remember the sentiment and sensitivities of others

WK

Tulang Besi said...

I do not think that having an open forum will solve any problem or lead to any viable solution.

What it will do is strengthen the resolve between the two sides of the isle and deepen their animosity.

This to me is a recipe for disaster and it's exactly what BN and UMNO thrive upon.

The best way is to have a discussion between the two sides and reach an agreement that is amicable to both sides towards solving impending problems in the soceity.

Otherwise, it the ball will always be in UMNO's court.

Tulang Besi said...

MR says:
"
And I disagree that this forum "only leads to unnecessary problems." The problems are, most prominently, the loud-mouthed hot heads that likely have no clue as to what was (or was to be) discussed. It is understandable that people will react this way -- concepts that they hold to dearly, such as ideas indoctrinated over the years by our national government as well as transnational religious discourses are, in their views, under threat -- but the country's problems will only change when we all learn to build bridges by listening carefully and deeply and trying to understand things from the perspective of the 'other.'"

MY REPLY: WHy??? How do they managed to gather so much steam in such a short time?

Isn't it because the topic is really sensitive to the every muslim hearts, except for the likes of Alhadee?

Or do you prefer to deny the reality and operate in a vacumm?

Blaming a group of protestors will not solve problems.

These protestors would not have any reason to protest if the method adopted is correct.

Unless u prefer to deal with the likes of Alhadee who looks down on his own religion, i can only assure u that u are dealing with a small and insignificant minority among the Muslims.

Tulang Besi said...

MR says:

"Rather than being critical of your opinion, I will merely point out that some (including myself) might prefer to have a more inclusive dialogue -- not one that is determined for us by a paternalistic cabal of religious and political elite who have helped lead us to this point in the first place."

MY REPLY: The fact that you're already negatively labeling them shows that there will never be a solution be achieved.

And a solution does not mean that Muslims having to change their religion to adopt a secular and liberal ideology.

Also, ever notice that body snatching doesn't really happen in PAS controlled states?? And most of the PEMBELA people are PAS members and supporters.

I stand by my word. Having the open forum doesn't benefit anyone except UMNO and BN.

It wont benefit the victims, the muslims, the non muslims or anyone for that matter.

It only creates an atmosphere of enimity which suits UMNO and BN just fine.

Tulang Besi said...

what i am proposing that Bar Council sits down with PEMBELA to discuss real problems that can be solved with real solutions that will result in points of actions good for both soceities

alhadee said...

RC's

'..Unless u prefer to deal with the likes of Alhadee who looks down on his own religion..'
=============

I look down on my religion because;

1. I believe that all man are born equal.

2. I believe that we should focus on the building of Bangsa Malaysia instead of one particular race or religion.

However,

Hadi Awang and Nasa looks up on their religion because;

1. They lie to the voters. First they promise PAS FOR ALL slogan to all non Malays voters yet the day after election, goes secretly to talk with UMNO on power sharing on the basis of Malay and Muslim sentiment.

2. Lie to the people again by making public statement denying any meeting with UMNO took place.

So you see MR, how I am classified as looking down at my religion according to RC's criteria.

I wish to be a good Muslim but by RC's standard, I will have to be a liar to be so.

So hard to be Muslims nowadays.

alhadee said...

RC's
I do not think that having an open forum will solve any problem or lead to any viable solution.
======

MR, being open is not the solution according to RC's standard.

Everything must be done in the dark and without public knowledge. And then must lie about it.

That is PAS standard procedure of getting things done.

Please try very hard to understand PAS mentality.

alhadee said...

RC's
MY REPLY: WHy??? How do they managed to gather so much steam in such a short time?
===========

PAS issue statement opposing the forum on the 7th August 2008.

It is safe to assume they know about the forum before that.

So few days, they manage to gather 300 talibans only?

That is 'much steam' according to RC's standard.

alhadee said...

RC's
Also, ever notice that body snatching doesn't really happen in PAS controlled states??
==========

True, PAS is not interested in snatching dead bodies.

They are only interested in demolishing churches.

Read More:
http://www.gospel2poor.org/jias.htm

alhadee said...

RC's
Bar Council sits down with PEMBELA to discuss real problems that can be solved with real solutions that will result in points of actions good for both soceities
========

And yes, 'real solutions' according to RC is very simple; apostates must be killed.

That is the 'real solution' and 'good for both soceities' for RC.

Please read Haris Ibrahim's People's Parliament.

http://harismibrahim.wordpress.com/2008/06/21/understanding-the-mindset-of-rahman-celcom/

Anonymous said...

Tulang Besi,

I would like to deconstruct your statements here to show some things I find problematic.

(1) "the topic is really sensitive to the every muslim hearts"

(2) "Muslims having to change their religion to adopt a secular and liberal ideology"

(3) "i am proposing that Bar Council sits down with PEMBELA to discuss real problems"

(4) "Having the open forum doesn't benefit anyone except UMNO and BN"

(5) "the likes of Alhadee who looks down on his own religion, i can only assure u that u are dealing with a small and insignificant minority among the Muslims"

........................

(1) "the topic is really sensitive to the every muslim hearts" essentializes Muslims into a single category of thinkers which we are not.

It is obviously not sensitive to *every* Muslim's heart as I find the debate potentially enlightening.

Why should we reject a dynamic Islam that uses the wisdom of the revelations and example of our Prophet (pbuH) to examine philosophical issues in the context of a modern, cosmopolitan society?

........................

(2) "Muslims having to change their religion to adopt a secular and liberal ideology"

Aside from ascribing the evils of Leninism and Stalinism to secular and liberal thought, you do little to provide a definition. I assume that you mean 'devoid of religious belief and values' through the use of the word "change."

While secularism and liberalism should not be conflated -- they each have distinct and multivalent histories and meanings -- they are far from incompatible with Islam. Secular, more or less, means "worldly," but does not necessarily mean the absence of spiritual thought. A secular Muslim is potentially a righteous one who seeks balance in his or her life. Within our Quran and Hadith there are many sources of inspiration for living a worldly existence such as the numerous references to God's creations which, for me at least, inspire awe but also the necessity to seek practical, secular solutions.

Liberalism is another misunderstood term in many conservative religious discourses (and not just Islam). There may be economic liberalism, or social liberalism. The Islam that was preached by the Prophet (pbuH) was liberal in both respects by today's standards. In present discourses, it is just used to attack 'so-called' enemies of Islam. Liberalism no more leads to immorality (which many suggest) than does conservatism. In fact, both can and do but that is another issue.

........................

(3) "real problems" are not for you to delimit. They acquire a life of their own (cf Hindraf). Perhaps the Bar Council feels they were discussing "real problems." (And maybe that is one big reason they held their meeting.)

........................

(4) "Having the open forum doesn't benefit anyone except UMNO and BN".

This is counter intuitive as openness is a fundamental aspiration of the organized opposition in Malaysia. Anwar promised a few days ago to "ensure a healthy and vibrant democracy where dissent is not only tolerated but also nurtured." He did not say discourse could not benefit one party or another (which, to no one's surprise hopefully, should be accepted as part of discourse).

........................

(5) "the likes of Alhadee who looks down on his own religion, i can only assure u that u are dealing with a small and insignificant minority among the Muslims".

Alhadee defended himself later in the thread. I will add that "a small and insignificant minority among the Muslims" is:

(a) another essentialization of Muslims' thoughts and

(b) the size of a group does not reflect a monopoly upon righteousness or understanding.

........................

I will add that there are Muslims from many backgrounds, and not just those who define themselves by race. I think a study of how these protesters look at themselves in racial terms would show that this is, quite simply, a protest by self-identifying Malays against what they perceive as incursions into their spheres of socio-economic and political control by those they perceive as Chinese and Indians, framed in terms of religious difference.

It is a sad event for this country. I hope that some leaders in PR will speak up and show the protest for what it is.

MR

Tulang Besi said...

Alhadee says:

"And yes, 'real solutions' according to RC is very simple; apostates must be killed."

MY REPLY: Actually this is what the Quran prescribed. Although minority liberals like you disagree, you sure cannot change the QUran.

Try checking 02:54 Alhadee.

Al Hadee says:Please read Haris Ibrahim's People's Parliament.

http://harismibrahim.wordpress.com/2008/06/21/understanding-the-mindset-of-rahman-celcom/

MY REPLY: Yes, and please also read my various rebutal to Haris Ibrahim. Go to the archive section of this blog an click any link with the name HAris Ibrahim on it.

Alhadee must've had a memory relapsed because i also proved that Haris Ibrahim changes the meaning of the Quran as he pleases.

Al HAdee is no exception, i guess because he accepts part of the Quran that he wish and rejects whatever he wants.

So, anyone listening to Alhadee is really inviting more problems and troubles

Tulang Besi said...

Alhadee says:

"True, PAS is not interested in snatching dead bodies.

They are only interested in demolishing churches.

Read More:
http://www.gospel2poor.org/jias.htm"

MY REPLY: Oh you mean this land dispute?

Get your facts right Alhadee

Tulang Besi said...

Alhadee says:
"I look down on my religion because;

1. I believe that all man are born equal.

2. I believe that we should focus on the building of Bangsa Malaysia instead of one particular race or religion."

MY REPLY: WHat has this issue got to do with "all men being born equal"

You believe one thing and u understand something else.

Haven't u heard of the concept of "diversity". It has nothing to do with equality, you know.

Hahahahaha secularist muslims are always a bunch of dumb idiots. I kept proving them that over and over again.

Oh, and trust me, the word "equality" can be defined in so many terms, and we do not have to limit ourselves to the western-liberal-secular definition of it

Tulang Besi said...

Alhadee says:

"PAS issue statement opposing the forum on the 7th August 2008.

It is safe to assume they know about the forum before that.

So few days, they manage to gather 300 talibans only?"

MY REPLY: Eerr, they only knew about it one or two days before that.

It's not enough time to organize anything significant.

Tulang Besi said...

Alhadee says:
"
MR, being open is not the solution according to RC's standard.

Everything must be done in the dark and without public knowledge. And then must lie about it.

That is PAS standard procedure of getting things done."

REPLY: It's like I said, Alhadee represents an insignificant minority among the Muslims in Malaysia.

The fact that they can't even muster the number on the day of the forum is a testimony to their insignificant nature.

And Alhadee has a problem understanding the simple concept of "being careful" and "being open".

But then again all Muslim secularists like Alhadee are plauged with skewed mind and non fully functional brain to analyze an issue properly.

That is why their views are almost always biased one lop-sided.

So if u want disaster, listen to Alhadee.

Tulang Besi said...

The measure of Alhadee confidence in his beliefs.

He screens all comments in his blog and while I let all comments to be published.

SO much for secularism and freedom of speech. hahahahahahaha

So, go figure

Tulang Besi said...

MR says:

"I will add that there are Muslims from many backgrounds, and not just those who define themselves by race. I think a study of how these protesters look at themselves in racial terms would show that this is, quite simply, a protest by self-identifying Malays against what they perceive as incursions into their spheres of socio-economic and political control by those they perceive as Chinese and Indians, framed in terms of religious difference."

REPLY: I would like to differ on that because we didn't see any demonstration of this measure when the Bar Council held a forum on Malay Rights?

Which means the motivation to this forum is religion in nature and nothing to do with race.

Tulang Besi said...

MR says:

"I will add that there are Muslims from many backgrounds, and not just those who define themselves by race. I think a study of how these protesters look at themselves in racial terms would show that this is, quite simply, a protest by self-identifying Malays against what they perceive as incursions into their spheres of socio-economic and political control by those they perceive as Chinese and Indians, framed in terms of religious difference."

REPLY: I would like to differ on that because we didn't see any demonstration of this measure when the Bar Council held a forum on Malay Rights?

Which means the motivation to this forum is religion in nature and nothing to do with race.

Tulang Besi said...

Alhadee says:

"Alhadee defended himself later in the thread. I will add that "a small and insignificant minority among the Muslims" is:

(a) another essentialization of Muslims' thoughts and

(b) the size of a group does not reflect a monopoly upon righteousness or understanding. "

REPLY: In truth, they become a small insignificant minority because their understanding of the Quran has been proven to be skewed and mistaken.

Largely due to their ignorance of the language of the Quran and how the process of Islam.

Their main motivation is to change Islam to fit secularism. That's all.

That's why they even go to the length of changing the meaning of the Quran.

Read my debate with Haris Ibrahim in the archives and you will see.

that's how pathetic they are. And that's why they will never become a majority.

For one, they have all failed to debate their cause effectively.

If you're really confident about your beliefs, then why screen all your comments in your blog.

Look at me i never screen anything.

Anonymous said...

y u people worry abt UMNo using this as an issue in PP by-election ?

so scared tat Anwar 'll lose ah ? Victory is a forgone conclusion..maybe lose a few votes..tat's all..

Bar council want 2 organise watever forum,up to them la..no nid to check which direction d wind is blowing..or answer to this side or tat side..it's independent body mah....apolitical...

main problem is with those hot headed nut-cases..with nothing much in their brains..

Scott said...

Hi Tulang Besi

As an ignoranti of current & past M'sian affairs, i find a lot of what’s written in the blogs refreshing & entertaining to say the least (if only 1/2 of what u write is true....God help us all! LOL). I find your post slightly flawed though meritorious nonetheless.

While its true that the timing of this Bar Council’s forum can be more fortuitous for Anwar Ibrahim’s election, I’m a firm believer in the idiom of “there’s no better time than now”. If Malaysia wishes to advance beyond the backwaters of racial & religious bigotry, there must be a means for topics & issues (sensitive or not) to be debated so that solutions are hopefully found. Afterall the Bar Council’s not running for office & if Mr. Ibrahim cannot deal with honest constituency issues, then he’s got no business running for office (not to mention as impending PM-in-waiting) in my honest opinion.

Fortunately I grew up in a multicultural country (Canada) where all forms of religions are not only respected but coexist peacefully. However the only entity that’s truly sacrosanct & inviolate is its citizen’s rights & freedoms which btw also include the right to congregate & debate but also guarantees their various religions & cultures. Indeed we even have right to disagree & protest with any & all groups who’s views we disagree with – all within peaceful legal confines of course.

Infact what bothers me most about this is the fact that the state ( M’sian police in this case) not only did not arrest the illegal gathering (as far as I know) of the protesters but assist in the protesters illegal actions in breaking up a legal public forum! Am I wrong in understanding that certain members of Hindraf were arrested & are still incarcerated under Malaysia’s (in)famous ISA for doing the same thing? But we digress.

As far as I can understand, the Bar Council’s forum does not touch on rights nor the sanctity of religions (Islam or otherwise) but merely the rights of individual caught up in certain unfortunate situations. If that’s wrong, then the idea of democracy, free & civilized society & fundamental individual freedoms are sorely missing. Perhaps we may not be so quick to judge & condemn if the shoe’s on the foot. But then again, perhaps I forget we are talking about Bolehland & its dynamic Bolehlaws especially for its privileged Bolehputras.

alhadee said...

"And yes, 'real solutions' according to RC is very simple; apostates must be killed."

MY REPLY: Actually this is what the Quran prescribed.
==========

Ah MR,

Now you know why they insists on a close door meeting to 'resolve' these issues.

What can you expect from a pea brain who cannot go beyond the interpretation of the Ulama from the 9th century?

alhadee said...

MY REPLY: Oh you mean this land dispute?
=========

You mean orang Asli building a church on Orang Asli Land is a 'land dispute'?

But ofcourse, it comes as a no surprise since PAS No 1 and No 2 are proven liars. What can I expect from a lowly member of Parti Ajaran Sesat.

alhadee said...

Oh, and trust me, the word "equality" can be defined in so many terms,
&
And Alhadee has a problem understanding the simple concept of "being careful" and "being open".
============

THis reminds me of George Owell's Animal Farm quote; "All animals are equal but some animals are more equal than others."

Muslims can critisize other religion. Non Muslims cannot do so to Islam because they will have to be 'careful' and 'sensitive'.

That is Taliban's definition of 'equal' for you.

alhadee said...

It's not enough time to organize anything significant.
========

Talibans are too insignificant to organize anything.

alhadee said...

Which means the motivation to this forum is religion in nature and nothing to do with race.
=======
Only Talibans went berserk when comes to religion

Compare that to the Orang Asli in Gua Musang whose church was demolished.

They went to the court for justice.

It does not take a genius to figure who knows better what Law and Order is. But again, you cannot find the word 'civilize' in a Taliban's dictionary.

Anonymous said...

Tulang Besi said:

....clip....

we didn't see any demonstration of this measure when the Bar Council held a forum on Malay Rights?

Which means the motivation to this forum is religion in nature and nothing to do with race.

.....end clip............

Two things.

You tend to argue emotionally and in a very ad hominem manner. Please, can't we all avoid denigrating each other for a change and stick to addressing the points raised???

Second, by your logic A=B. It does not follow that the absence of a protest in the first case corresponds to a solely religious (rather than racial) character in the second.

Malaysia is a country built on racial difference.

I have experienced racism expressed in religious terms (and vice versa) too many times to mention in all types of social situations, public and private in Malaysia, as I am sure many -- if not all -- of those reading this comment have. It begins at an early age, is built into the education system and all levels of the government and society.

Is it truly possible to separate racial and religious motivations in such public protests?

If you say it is possible, can you be sure that you are speaking for others?

(As a related aside, the reporting of racial epithets being shouted by the protesters at the Bar forum may or may not be accurate -- did anyone witness this happening?)

MR

alhadee said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
alhadee said...

we didn't see any demonstration of this measure when the Bar Council held a forum on Malay Rights?

Which means the motivation to this forum is religion in nature and nothing to do with race.
=========

UMNO held numerous forums on Malay Rights.

And PAS says they are against Asabiyah/Nationalism. Did you see them protesting at any UMNO forums?

Ah, what to expect from a party headed by 2 liars.

alhadee said...

RC's lies

Bar Council who represent Malaysian lawyers organize a forum discussing legal aspects of the constitution = religious issue

Orang Asli church built on Orang Asli Reserve Land being demolished is not a religious issue. Instead, it is a "land issue".

Liar! Liar! Serban on fire!

Tulang Besi said...

Blogger alhadee said...

RC's lies

Bar Council who represent Malaysian lawyers organize a forum discussing legal aspects of the constitution = religious issue"

REPLY: And it's the part of the constitution that is related to Islam and religion.

How is it that I lied?

Tulang Besi said...

Alhadee says:

Ah MR,

Now you know why they insists on a close door meeting to 'resolve' these issues.

What can you expect from a pea brain who cannot go beyond the interpretation of the Ulama from the 9th century?

MY REPLY: So you deny the Quran? Or u deny the entire religion of Islam?

Actually, there's no need for a close door meeting when discussing the punishment of apostates in Shariah.

It's there in just about every Islamic books. It's not even a secret.

Maybe Alhadee reads a different types of Quran, that's why he can't see the true picture

Tulang Besi said...

scott writes:

"If Malaysia wishes to advance beyond the backwaters of racial & religious bigotry, there must be a means for topics & issues (sensitive or not) to be debated so that solutions are hopefully found."

MY REPLY: I think here's where you're mistaken.

There is no problem of RELIGOUS bigotry in Malaysia. There are problems that needs to be solved in the implementation of Shariah.

There are also avenues and holes that needs to be plugged.

So, having an open forum is exactly the kind of thing that will breed and nurture bigotry. When emotions starts to replace rationale, problems like bigotry appears.

That's why my question to the organizer, what is their motive?

To solve problem or just to fan tensions along religous lines?



There's only a problem of racial bigotry.

Tulang Besi said...

Alhadee says:

"THis reminds me of George Owell's Animal Farm quote; "All animals are equal but some animals are more equal than others."

REPLY: So, George Orwell actually agrees with me. George Orwell agrees with Tulang Besi.

Muslims can critisize other religion. Non Muslims cannot do so to Islam because they will have to be 'careful' and 'sensitive'."

REPLY: Err where did u get this nonsense from Alhaid?

Tulang Besi said...

To those who doubts what Bar Council is doing falls direvtly into UMNO's lap, feel free to read Khir Toyo's latest postings:

"http://www.drkhir.com/2008/08/jong-pecah-yu-kenyang.html"

CHee XtheMan said...

You can't blamed Umno for this.

IT is PKR and PAS MPs being ran amok w/o concerning the good points in having such discussion and hope to adress the "grey' area.
The forum is not a treat to Islam.
Islam is not belongs only to Malay. (It make me lough why tose people calling "balik China". Brader, in China, there were more chinese muslims compare to Malaysia)

Why protes like a morons in the street .... very uncivilized. WHY not hujah like a gentelman ? This is the problem of some Malay, always think Malay = Islam, and Islam = Malay !! It is not, pls remember that !!

Anonymous said...

BE CAREFULL, DON’T FALL INTO THE DEVILS TRAP, BE AWAKE AND ALERT ALL THE TIME.IT’S THE UMO DEVIL’S WORK. DON’T BE USED BY THEM, BE VERY VERY CAREFULL. SOME ALREADY BEING BOUGHT OVER, DON’T MISTAKEN ‘THE CHANGE TO DEVIL’S’ AS YOUR FRIEND ANY MORE. HUMAN GOT GREED AND WEAKNESSES,CAN BE EASILY BOUGHT OVER. CONCENTRATE ON PERMATANG PAUL AND BE SMART, MAKE SURE OUR BELOVED DSAI WON HANDS DOWN. DON’T FALL INTO THEIR TRAP, THE CORRUPTED UMO ARE TRYING TO MAKE YOU ALL FIGHT EACH OTHER. LONG LIVE RPK AND DSAI. MAY GOD SAVE MALAYSIA

Scott said...

Perhaps the issue isn’t whether these debates or forums are “stupid” or valid or even useful. Afterall in a civilized society, everyone has the right to be stupid, to be morons… or otherwise. In my humble opinion, the importance of having public debates/forums is exactly that – the right of debate or more succinctly, the right of expression. Indeed to me, the chief privilege of living in an enlightenment society is that we can all, whatever our religion or politics, speak our minds without fear of prosecution and/or persecution.

If enraged emotions do get outta hand, well that’s what law & order is there for. Civilized society entails that respect works both ways. The right & freedom to criticize also ensures the rights & freedoms of others to criticize back – its works both ways. Having a public forum ensures that all sides can gets fair & equal exposure to the issues. Unless of course, one believes & abides by the idiom “it my way or the hi-way”.

For what its worth, certain 20th century unsavory characters (Hitler, Stalin, Mao, Saddam, etc…) also share a fondness for this particular idiom. They too have used & applied censorship for the “greater good of the people”. Yes, the dreaded “C” word – what else can we call it when we disallow others their views & right of expressions.

So which is worse: the ramblings of a bunch of pompous lawyers? the poisonous diatribes of corrupt politicians? The self righteous preachings of religious hypocrites? To me the answer matters nought for if one values Democracy, Civilized Society, Freedoms & Rights and Due Processes, one will defend the right of all to be heard. For Censorship is not only an enemy of the above values, it is a very intimate friend of Oppression & a vital partner of Tyranny.

I’ll part with the immortal words of the great SciFi author,
ROBERT HEINLAN
When any government, or any church for that matter, undertakes to say to its subjects, "This you may not read, this you must not see, this you are forbidden to know," the end result is tyranny and oppression, no matter how holy the motives. Mighty little force is needed to control a man whose mind has been hoodwinked; contrariwise, no amount of force can control a free man, a man whose mind is free. No, not the rack, not fission bombs, not anything - you can't conquer a free man; the most you can do is kill him.

Tulang Besi said...

Alhadee also sees that secularism is much like porn. We have a soft secularism and hardcore secularism.

I struggle to find the difference but eventually it leads to the same conclusion, no implementation of Shariah.

But, Shariah is based upon the Quran and AS Sunnah. To deny shariah is to deny Al Quran and AS Sunnah?

so again tell me how soft secularism is not against Islam?

Alhadee gave the example of Sweden as soft secularism where certain Islamic laws are allowed.

FUnny, i don't see the shariah allowed to be implemented.

Tulang Besi said...

scott

To be stupid is indeed our right, but if your stupidity leads to chaos and tension, then it's illegal.

Let's face it, there is no such thing as absolute freedom.

In America there's a list of Supreme Court judgements on the limits of freedom stipulated in the Constitution.

It's all rhetoric

alhadee said...

What can you expect from a pea brain who cannot go beyond the interpretation of the Ulama from the 9th century?

MY REPLY: So you deny the Quran? Or u deny the entire religion of Islam?
===========

I deny the interpretation of the Ulama who lived more 1000 years ago, and who lived in a different background, different society and different political structure.

But of course, bigots does not know the difference.

They need a brain to start with.

alhadee said...

There is no problem of RELIGOUS bigotry in Malaysia. There are problems that needs to be solved in the implementation of Shariah.
=========

The problem is when people question the implementation of Shariah.

When people accept without questioning, only then there is 'no problem'.

That is Taliban's definition of 'no problem'.

alhadee said...

So, having an open forum is exactly the kind of thing that will breed and nurture bigotry. When emotions starts to replace rationale, problems like bigotry appears.
==========

And open, legal and professional forum will breed bigotry.

Only talibans will belive that.

Taliban 'rationale' is 'accept without questioning'. No different opinion allowed.

alhadee said...

Muslims can critisize other religion. Non Muslims cannot do so to Islam because they will have to be 'careful' and 'sensitive'."

REPLY: Err where did u get this nonsense from Alhaid?
========

You mean when the Bar Council representing lawyers in Malaysia held an open and professional legal forum, it was disrupted by a bunch of Talibans who thinks it is about questioning their religion?

alhadee said...

They too have used & applied censorship for the “greater good of the people”. Yes, the dreaded “C” word – what else can we call it when we disallow others their views & right of expressions.
=========

Scott, that is exactly why RPK said " For the West, Islam is the new communism!"

Thanks to the liars such as Hadi Awang.

alhadee said...

Actually, there's no need for a close door meeting when discussing the punishment of apostates in Shariah.
=======

First they told you not to have open forum and propose a closed forum instead.

Then they told you 'there is no need for a close door meeting' at all.

Taliban's idea of an open society.

Liar! Liar! Serban on fire!

alhadee said...

No one can held an open forum discussing issues affecting them if Taliban thinks it is a religious issue.

But Muslims are free to demolish Orang Asli church built on Orang Asli Reserve Land.

That is 'equal' according to Taliban'd dictionary.

alhadee said...

"THis reminds me of George Owell's Animal Farm quote; "All animals are equal but some animals are more equal than others."

REPLY: So, George Orwell actually agrees with me. George Orwell agrees with Tulang Besi.
===========

Hahahahaha

Why don't you read the book first RC before commenting?

That is what the Pig force upon other animals to ensure their dominance.

But if you want equate yourself with the pigs in Animal Farm, be my guest.

Hahahahaha

Tulang Besi said...

Alhadee says:

"I deny the interpretation of the Ulama who lived more 1000 years ago, and who lived in a different background, different society and different political structure."

REPLY: I see, so that explains why you and your friend Haris Ibrahim would rather change the meaning of the Quran just so to see it fit the 20th century?

It looks more like unscrupulousness rather than being modern.

Also, the interpretation of ulama 1000 years ago seems to fit what the Quran says.

Your "modern" interpretation seems to be inspired by orientalist and liberalists.

Tell me, why should I trust liberalist/secularists? What makes them better than the ulama of 1000 years ago?

Tulang Besi said...

Alhadee youre so confident of your quest that you screen all the comments in your blog.

I am confident of my stand i don't need to screen any of my comments.

So, that's a clear measure of who's confident with their message, isn't it.

Tulang Besi said...

alhadee said...

No one can held an open forum discussing issues affecting them if Taliban thinks it is a religious issue.

But Muslims are free to demolish Orang Asli church built on Orang Asli Reserve Land.

That is 'equal' according to Taliban'd dictionary.

REPPLY: Funny Jed Yoong visited Gua Musang and she said she went and visited a church in Gua Musang.

It seems Christianity is alive and well in KElantan.

Have Alhadee actually refered to the Gua Musang land office and get their side of the story?

I believe he hasn't and what's clear is that Alhadee doesn't have the faintest idea of the concept of balanced report of an issue.

So, i should not be surprised

Tulang Besi said...

Alhadee,

I doubt the ulama of 1000 years ago would support the massacare committed by fathers of secularism, Lenin and Stalin.

Plus, secularism was actually practiced even during the time of the Pharoah. So, secularism is older than the ulama of the past.

plus, u are angry with the death penalty for apostasy ruling, but to date we don't hear any sound reason from u rejecting this ruling.

Or even from any one of your brethrens.

Tulang Besi said...

Alhadee says:

"And open, legal and professional forum will breed bigotry.

Only talibans will belive that.

Taliban 'rationale' is 'accept without questioning'. No different opinion allowed."

REPLY: Funny, even secularists never question their beliefs as well.

Are secularists taliban as well.

All i know the fact u filter all comments on your blog show how confident of you of your beliefs.

HAhahahahahaha

Tulang Besi said...

Alhadee,

You're just a loud mouth. You have nothing to offer except for your secularism theory.

Almost all the world are ruled by secular governments yet 3/4 of the world languish in sufferings and decadent.

So much for your "modern" ways of understanding Islam.

What you want is the scholars change the Quran and SUnnah to fit your stupid ideology.

Tulang Besi said...

Alhadee says:
Hahahahaha

Why don't you read the book first RC before commenting?

That is what the Pig force upon other animals to ensure their dominance.

But if you want equate yourself with the pigs in Animal Farm, be my guest.

REPLY: I did write a paper on the book. I guess in the process i must've read the book too.

Tulang Besi said...

Actually Alhadee or anyone has yet to bring me one proof showing previous ulama's interpretation of the Quran and Sunnah is not suitable for modern times.

And just because it doesn't fit the Secular and Liberal outlook of the world doesn't make it wrong.

alhadee said...

REPPLY: Funny Jed Yoong visited Gua Musang and she said she went and visited a church in Gua Musang.

It seems Christianity is alive and well in KElantan.
========

Freedom of Religion is, according to Taliban, to demolish 1 church and left one standing - for a show.

Funny why PAS makes a huge cry over the demolishment of a mosque in Bujal, Terengganu when there are thousands of mosques all over Malaysia.

But it is not a surprise, since this comes from a party whose No 1 and No 2 leaders are proven liars.

alhadee said...

REPLY: Funny, even secularists never question their beliefs as well.
=========

And I suppose that is why open forums and open debates on any topics is a normal thing in the Western society.

But that does not happen in Taliban land.

alhadee said...

I believe he hasn't and what's clear is that Alhadee doesn't have the faintest idea of the concept of balanced report of an issue.
========

Balance reporting to RC is one girl went to one church while another church was demolished. So praises must be given for 'letting' 1 church standing.

Taliban's idea of balance reporting.

alhadee said...

plus, u are angry with the death penalty for apostasy ruling, but to date we don't hear any sound reason from u rejecting this ruling.
======

Oopss.. And you call one verse referng specific to the people of Musa a.s. as 'a sound' reason?

Try harder RC.

alhadee said...

Also, the interpretation of ulama 1000 years ago seems to fit what the Quran says.
========

The interpretation of ulama 1000 years ago fits the condition 1000 years ago.

The Quran fits for all time.

But I am sure pea brain Talibans does not know the difference.

alhadee said...

Plus, secularism was actually practiced even during the time of the Pharoah. So, secularism is older than the ulama of the past.
======

Now that is funny!

Hahahahaha

alhadee said...

A mosque was demolished in BUjal, Terengganu

>> Taliban went beserk

BAR Council representing lawyers organize forums discussing legal issues

>> Taliban went beserk

Orang Asli church was demolished in Kelantan

>>Orang Asli went to the court to present their case before a judge

Conclusions: Orang Asli living in a jungle is more civilize compare Taliabans living in a desert.

No need to compare with 1st world nation. Just compare them with Orang Asli is enough.

Malu lah sikit RC.

Somewhere I Belong said...

Tulang Besi,

Why i feel that you sounds like 'kanak-kanak riang ribena'?

Mcm kanak-kanak tgh marah...LOL!

Tulang Besi said...

Alhadee says:

Freedom of Religion is, according to Taliban, to demolish 1 church and left one standing - for a show.

Funny why PAS makes a huge cry over the demolishment of a mosque in Bujal, Terengganu when there are thousands of mosques all over Malaysia.

But it is not a surprise, since this comes from a party whose No 1 and No 2 leaders are proven liars.

REPLY: Taleban is alive and well. Multinationals are investing trillions in Taleban country.

Check it out

a. http://www.malaysiawaves.com/2008/05/life-in-taliban-country-pt-1.html

b. http://www.malaysiawaves.com/2008/05/life-in-taleban-country-pt-2.html

c. http://www.malaysiawaves.com/2008/06/life-in-taleban-country-pt-3.html

Also, please bear in mind they became liars because of seduction from secular UMNO, the real liar of them all.

Alhaid, when are u going to open up your blog for comments. U know, no screening?

Tulang Besi said...

Alhaid said that Masjid Bujal protest is a sign of double standard.

But as far as I know, the Masjid Bujal incident is related to the fact that the lease for the entire Bujal RTB area was revoked by the secular BN govt.

The permit for the land was awarded by the previous PAS government.

So the demonstration was done not only for the Masjid but also for the entire RTB area.

I guess Lenin worshipper loses again.

Tulang Besi said...

Alhaid uses the Taliban word many times to intimidate people.

Lets see what the Taliban did shall we:

a. Reduce heroin supply by 95%
b. Brought law and order to a country plague by American trained militias
c. Reduced crime rate to a level lesser than New York
d. Rebuild the country's infrastructure destroyed by American trained militia
e. They brought back inheritance to afghan women after being denied for hundreds of years.
f. They stopped mercy killings and the practice of inheriting women

and many more.

oh and before i forget, even after Taleban left, the plight of women in Afghanistan is still the same. No change. In fact worse, under the Taleban rapists are executed.
Under the current Haliburton President Karzai, rapists are appointed as Governors. hahahaha

So, women are oppressed in Afghanistan not because of Taleban.

Secularists like Alhaid are suckers for western propaganda

alhadee said...

But as far as I know, the Masjid Bujal incident is related to the fact that the lease for the entire Bujal RTB area was revoked by the secular BN govt.

The permit for the land was awarded by the previous PAS government.
==========

Ahhh, so it is a 'land' matter. Wonder why Talibans make a 'religious' issue out of it.

But of course, when orang Asli Church was demolished, it is never a religious issue. It is, according to RC, a 'land' issue.

Keep on lying RC, because that is a sign of a Munafiq.

Alamak! Forget la, PAS is full of liars.

alhadee said...

REPLY: Taleban is alive and well. Multinationals are investing trillions in Taleban country.
=======

As usual, when I talk about religious freedom, RC talks about investments.

Trying to divert the issue?

Does not work with me.

It works for your fellow pea brain Talibans

alhadee said...

Also, please bear in mind they became liars because of seduction from secular UMNO, the real liar of them all.
=======

Good to hear you admitting PAS No 1 and 2 are liars. We are making progress here.

Of course, every sin committed by PAS leaders are not their fault. It is always the fault of UMNO and secularism.

Like I said, only Talibans would believe that.

alhadee said...

Guys,

From my previous postings;
================
A mosque was demolished in BUjal, Terengganu

>> Taliban went beserk

BAR Council representing lawyers organize forums discussing legal issues

>> Taliban went beserk

Orang Asli church was demolished in Kelantan

>>Orang Asli went to the court to present their case before a judge
============

Can we for once stop and think, why Islam is getting such a bad name in this country.

Don't blame Jews, Christians, or any super secret organization from hell.

We should look among ourselves first.

My suggestion; look at RC as a start.

A 'fine' example of Dakwah bil-Hikmah.

But it comes as a no surprise since his Tok Guru said "Allah juga mencarut.."

And a fact that the No 1 and 2 in PAS, who is suppose to be the best Muslims among hundreds of thousands Muslims in PAS, are liars.

voices said...

After reading all the comments, my conclusion is anger vs anger, emotion vs emotion. The Muslim are angry because the forum discussed issues that are sensitive to Muslim. The panel are non-muslim, discussing on Muslim matters. Even is there is Muslim in the panel, are they the right people to be speaking on behalf of Muslim. The non-muslim are angry because the word and calling names which is so childish.
Both parties need to understand and respect each other believes.
Ask ourselves, how well we know other religions? We might not even know our own in great detail, far from knowing other religions. Can we comment or condemn others, when our knowledge is limited? Most of the time, we make our own assumption or get carried away with the emotion.
Dear friends, there are major issues need to be address that this issue. Lets get back on track..Don't get ourselves in trap in this issue.

Tulang Besi said...

Alhaid says:
As usual, when I talk about religious freedom, RC talks about investments.

Trying to divert the issue?

Does not work with me.

It works for your fellow pea brain Talibans
REPLY: Freedom, why don't u walk the talk, Alhaid.

Free up your blog first from screening of comments.

Ni la kata dulang paku serpih.

Give it up. Secularism is dead. THe ideology is only for people who cannot think.

Selling it tantamounts to being an idiot.

And despite all the lies abt Taleban, people are still queing up to invest in Taleban country.

So, it means everything we hear abt Taleban is not true after all.

But the likes of secularist like u are very gullible to western propadanda because u dont have a mind of your own

hassanuddin usj said...

Assalamu Alaykum Wa Rahmatullaahi wa barakato.

Sigh... How could our fellow 300 Muslims be so STUPID?

BAR Council was having FORUM to discuss LEGAL issues, NOT RELIGIOUS issues.

Many LEGAL issues have arised due to grey areas on various aspects such as marriage and divorce, children's custodian, and death in relation to conversion to Islam. All these confusions and conflicts have been giving unnecessary pains to many families - which can be avoided if the laws (either Secular or Syariah) have clearer cut. Read BAR Council's press statements and circulars prior to the Forum lah!

I am upset : this incident has again painted another ugly image about Muslims - violent, hush, not open. This is not what ISLAM propogates! Please, fellow brothers, don't shame the name of ISLAM again!

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