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Saturday, September 13, 2008

Rumors On The Recent ISA Arrests

These are some rumors that I have picked up with regards to the recent ISA arrests.

1.0 The recent arrest is to provoke a racial and religous instability. Apparently, that will pave way for a MAGERAN. This is to ensure the continuation of the current UMNOPUTRA rule in Malaysia.

2.0 Apparently, the arrest is not the handiwork of the BN government. It is the single handed effort by the Police. Even Syed Hamid Albar is taken by surprise of these moves.

3.0 The Sin Chew reporter is forced to be released. The Chinese parties in Barisan Nasional is fuming and if she is not released, in the coming weeks we will see voluntary movement of Chinese BN parties MP's into Pakatan Rakyat, en massed.

4.0 It might be that the current arrests is engineered by someone in the PM office without the knowledge of the PM or Syed Hamid Albar.

5.0 Teresa Kok is lucky to have published a denial on the azan issue. In fact, Pakatan Rakyat is lucky to have handled the issue a few days before the ISA arrest. Now, despite the arrest of Teresa Kok, the "sensitive religous issue" cannot be exploited anymore. I pray that God protects Teresa Kok while she is in her incarceration.

6.0 Pak Lah leadership is facing major breakdown in the face of the upcoming threat of government change. It seems that the committee that is supposed to acheive 3 objectives (refer to my earlier article entitle " How the UMNOPUTRA Elites Are Fighting Back? ". It seems the committee has broken into factions now and AAB is unable to unite them. But one thing for sure, they are all desperate.

7.0 As for the government change, apparently the number of MP's willing to shift is increasing as we speak. But I have sworn to secrecy and cannot divulge more. Suffice to say things are progressing as plan.


8.0 As for Raja Petra, I unequivocally call for his immediate release. I call upon the authorites to charge him in Shariah court where he is able to defend himself. As such, proper due process will be provided to him, where he is completely entitled to.

It's a pity that Raja Petra had taken the ways of the Anti Hadeeth/Anti Islam sects. Otherwise, such move by the BN government would invoke more sympathy among the majority of the Muslim population.

It's hard to defend Raja Petra now since his anti Islam stance is beyond any reasonable doubt. But, the proper procedure is to charge him in Shariah Court not invocation of the ISA.

9.0 PAS members and leaders has felt the end of the spear of the ISA ( otherwise known as Akta Ikut Suka Aku). But rest assure, in Islam, the cry for justice will be listened by Allah SWT even if the cry comes from an unbeliever.

PERSONAL NOTE: Malaysiawaves have been harping repeatedly about the dangers of touching on "sensitive issues". Many disaprove of my argument. Some even say that I am projecting orthodox and narrow brand of Islam. Now it seems all my effort is vindicated. The powers that be are desperate. Their only hope of remaining in power is through chaos and breakdown in order. Such sensitive religous issues is the fuel that will light the fire. Thus, proving that the Bar Council forum serve no purpose but that of the corrupt regime of Malaysia.


Tulang Besi

65 comments:

Anonymous said...

Tulang Besi,

Doesn't Syed (botak) Hamid have to sign the detention order for the ISA arrests?

It's hard to imagine the Police doing this on their own. If that's true, imagine what power they will have with the DNA law!

Tulang Besi said...

No Syed only has to sign after 60 days of detention for arrest to be continued.

Anonymous said...

Are you saying the military wanted the ISA, then police was told to round them up. This someone must be link to the police and military. Is the real target they wanted is RPK?

Gerry said...

Tulang Besi,

Masjid Kinrara, the mosque which is embroiled in an azan controversy, said DAP parliamentarian Teresa Kok was not involved in the petition to lower the volume of its loudspeakers.

Steven Ee, the person who presented the mosque with the petition on behalf of the residents in the area also said that the allegations made by Khir Toyo that the handing over of the petition was instigated by a Pakatan party was untrue. Ee said that the petition was his own initiative.

So what are Syed Hamid or the Police talking about? This is pure injustice!

Anonymous said...

Why are people saying RPK is anti-Islam?
If I read RPK's articles correctly he merely lambasted the hypocritical muslims who practised the religion in such a way that brings shame to it.
There's nothing in his articles that shows he's anti islam. No where at all.

nawfal said...

anonymous September 13, 2008 11:33 PM,

I'm not sure if you are muslim or not. Let me tell you that any Muslims with basic knowldege of Islam would easily find out so many untrue of half-truth narration on Islam concocted by RPK.

The concocted story about feud between Sayyidna Ali and Sayyidatina Aishah was one of them.

And in most cases, they seemed to be done intentionally.His language, intonation, choice of words, semantic etc all point out to one fact - an effor to belittle or demonize Islam.

As much as I deplore his detention under ISA, RPK should not be simply let off the hook. He should be charged under Shariah law and faces the consequence.

Anonymous said...

nawfal excreted:
"As much as I deplore his detention under ISA, RPK should not be simply let off the hook. He should be charged under Shariah law and faces the consequence."

What consequence(s) precisely?

(and don't be snide, lecture me, or whine that I don't get it -- just_answer_the_question)

Emmar

Tulang Besi said...

Emmar,

I think what Nawfal meant by "Consequences" is actually "justice"

Anonymous said...

Allahyarham Tunku Abdul Rahman mempunyai impian dan idealisma sama seperti Martin Luther King, Gandhi, Nelson Mandela dan ramai lagi termasuk nabi-nabi sepanjang sejarah manusia.
Jangan sesekali kita buat perbandingan dengan para nabi nabi. Mereka adalah manusia yang terpilih. Kita tidak layak sama sekali membuat perbandingan dengan mereka sebab kita bukan selevel dengan mereka . So think n mind what you write next time. This is just a reminder from fellow muslim.

Anonymous said...

Quote:
It's a pity that Raja Petra had taken the ways of the Anti Hadeeth/Anti Islam sects. Otherwise, such move by the BN government would invoke more sympathy among the majority of the Muslim population


This is very true! RPK's latest article on hijab has created such a negative response among my friends. Some do not care about his arrest this time. However, we still disagree with the use of ISA. RPK should watch out what he writes from now on or he will lose our support...

Anonymous said...

TB blows smoke:
I think what Nawfal meant by "Consequences" is actually "justice"
...

WHY are we running in circles here with VAGUE answers?

With 1400 years of precedent I would expect that you could provide a more specific definition of 'justice'.

Emmar

Anonymous said...

anonymous two comments earlier said:
Some do not care about [RPK's] arrest this time. However, we still disagree with the use of ISA. RPK should watch out what he writes from now on or he will lose our support

Interesting. Rather than upholding 'justice' universally, it seems that you only care about justice when it is applied to those with whom you agree.

Is that just?

Emmar

Tulang Besi said...

Emmar says:

"WHY are we running in circles here with VAGUE answers?

With 1400 years of precedent I would expect that you could provide a more specific definition of 'justice'. "

REPLY: What vague answers. He will be faced in Shariah court on charges and there he will argue his case.

If he is innocent he will be free. Is that too difficult for you to comprehend?

Anonymous said...

To: Emmar@troll

I have mentioned that only 'some' do not care about RPK’s arrest this time. However, WE STILL DISAGREE with the use of ISA on RPK (is this not upholding the truth universally?). Hence, we hope RPK will be released soon. However, he should be charged in Shariah court.

If I hurt your feelings by making false accusations/misleading statements and then, something happened to me. Would you still feel very keen to help me? If yes - good on you. But the truth is, you will never feel the same.

I agree that RPK has to face the 'consequences' of his own writings. His writings are misleading people from the true teaching of Islam. Yes, he should be charged in Shariah court regarding that matter. RPK is a human being. Obviously, he is not free from making mistakes.

Anonymous said...

TB:
What is difficult for me to comprehend is how you cannot answer my question.

WHAT IS THE PUNISHMENT FOR ONE FOUND GUILTY OF THIS TYPE OF TRANSGRESSION UNDER SHARIAH?

Sheesh.

Emmar

Tulang Besi said...

Emmar asks:

"WHAT IS THE PUNISHMENT FOR ONE FOUND GUILTY OF THIS TYPE OF TRANSGRESSION UNDER SHARIAH?

Sheesh.

Emmar"

REPLY: I dunno, but it seems you already know the answer Emmar.

Sudah Gaharu Cendana Pula

Anonymous said...

@anonymous troll

Your contradictory statements show that you are obviously a very confused person who is not sure what to think.

Justice and emotions should be kept separate.

You should know that since, from your comments, you are obviously one who is qualified to say that RPK should "face the consequences" (...) for "misleading people from the true teaching of Islam."

...
Please note: I make no assertions as to his guilt or innocence. I just like to ask questions.

From all of the responses, I would say that TB and others are disturbingly paranoid. (Time for some serious self-reflection ladies.)

Emmar

Anonymous said...

TB,

"Sudah Gaharu Cendana Pula"

Strange way to admit you don't know, by saying that I do.

I don't. Hopefully someone here can inform the discussion.

Why does every little comment have to be challenged with your paranoid knee-jerk responses?

Emmar

Anonymous said...

Emmar,

Many Muslims here, myself included, have a lot of respect of RPK for his unwavering fight against oppression and corruption. However, we think that's its totally irresponsible of him to 'educate' the people with his brand of Islam based on half-truths and opinions of his friends. For that, let him go to court.

However, we still don't agree with the use of ISA to shut him up. Its unIslamic, and its against everything that is good and right.

There's no question of a knee-jerk reaction from us. Stop being such an emotional child. We too support RPK, but we're against his deviant Islamic teachings.

Generalismo

Tulang Besi said...

emmar,

there's nothing contradictory, i just don't like to answer questions from people who already knew the answers.

Anonymous said...

TB,

Please read back three comments and see if I claim to know the answer.

Generalissimo,

I don't understand why you have to repeat the same things that have been said when none of them address my question. It is a waste of both our time.

And like anonymous troll earlier, you have decided that RPK is guilty. Isn't that for the Shariah court to decide?

And let me explain what knee-jerk means to me in this case. It means that I ask a simple question, with utmost sincerity (admittedly that is a difficult quality to convey in text), because I really want to know how a Shariah system enforces laws -- particularly in areas of public discourse -- and I am treated as one who is unable to understand simple concepts (as in "is that too difficult for you to comprehend?") or called "an emotional child", and, if you have read other threads, myself and others have been assumed to be all kinds of 'nasty' things like deviants and liberals.

All of these insults I tolerate, all the while rephrasing or repeating my open question over and over. You don't have to answer if, like TB, you just don't know, but if you are unafraid to be challenged, you would not need to resort to using language that only insulates yourself from having to actually provide an answer.

One more time: I know you disagree with the ISA and want RPK to face a Shariah court. If guilty, what punishment awaits him?

Emmar

Anonymous said...

Don ever forget RPK is one of d key factors of Pakatan success in d last election i.e the swing of of non-muslim votes.

Get rid of AMNO/BeEnd first b4 thinking to dispose our golden bullets.

Bdw iam a muslim and i say RPK is better muslim than the rest 90%. Sabar!

Anonymous said...

Emmar,

Its true, its hard to convey our ideas via text. When I read your comments (especially the SHEESH part), I subconciously assumed that you were getting irritated and emotional to a non-provocative response from TB. For that I apologise.

Simple question, simple answer. I don't know. But to think of it, if found guilty, I think he could be punished the same way the Ayah Pin and Al-Arqam clan were dealt with. I think.

Regards,

Generalismo

jem hall said...

I urge all Muslims to be extra careful with the danger of Taa'sub.

Try to make your point precise & short, be firm on your belief then leave it there. Do not feed the troll.

Allah knows best.

Anonymous said...

Dear TB,
You have judged
"It's hard to defend Raja Petra now since his anti Islam stance is beyond any reasonable doubt"

From RPK's comments, I do not see any indication that he is anti-Islam. He was just expressing his views on how a good Muslim should observe the teachings of Islam.

e.g. I previously had an argument with a Catholic who told me "I do not like Protestants as they do not respect the Virgin Mary"! When I quoted her from the Bible of one of the ten commandments "Thou shall have no graven images before me", she reiterated that I was Muslim!

Question: Does that mean that when one disagrees with how we interpret the Bible that we are anti-Catholic or anti-Protestant?

My view is that we should not condemn a person on his opinions/views, esp. since he is facing such a charge. As his friend, you are doing more harm to RPK than helping him. One can discuss or disgree openly (esp on the website), but not pass judgements. As you said, let the Shariah Court decide on that.

From a non-Muslim's point of view (please correct me if I am wrong), when I read his postings, he is just expressing his views that others would not dare to do so.

To me he came across like this:
"There are good Christians just as there are bad Christians. Even in Christianity, there are so many factions - Protestants, Catholics, Mormons, Seven-days Adventist, etc. History has shown serious conflicts between Protestants and Catholics. Even now, I still have differences between my husband (who is a Catholic)."

Does that mean my husband should send me to the Vatican City to meet my fate just because I disagreed with him?

Region & politics are such sensitive issues that I have seen friends become enemies. I wish we could all just live peacefully with one another.

Tulang Besi said...

anon says:

"Dear TB,
You have judged
"It's hard to defend Raja Petra now since his anti Islam stance is beyond any reasonable doubt"

From RPK's comments, I do not see any indication that he is anti-Islam. He was just expressing his views on how a good Muslim should observe the teachings of Islam."

REPLY: Well for one, he did give one-sided audience to Anti Islam elements like Anti Hadeeth and shuts out everything else.

Second, he gives publicity only to anti islam sources to question what is clearly stated in the Quran and Sunnah?

Now if that isn't anti Islam, I don't know what else is.

tyu said...

Tulang Besi,

Is there any kind of outrage on your end regarding the Teresa Kok case? How can anyone sit there and let her being "fixed" like that? Especially when the incident is pertained to their religion?

kentan said...

To me, Raja Petra is a hero, a national hero to all, and we will stand by him.

tyu said...

Tulang Besi,

I don't know much your exchange with RPK, and frankly I don't really care. I think you get it right that he shouldn't be detained under ISA.

In Teresa Kok's case, you have people using the good name of your religion to fix up an innocent lady. If you ask me, that reflects pretty badly on your religion when people see the perpetrator can get away with the crime. To me, it's as bad as if there is a person making anti-Islam statement. Yet, you guys seem to be all worked up on the latter issue, but don't so in the previous one. Why? Am I missing something? I am just trying to understand here.

Harman said...

Tulang Besi,

I have had the pleasure of knowing Raja Petra personally. And I read his writings, even those about Islam.

I agree, he may have used some material culled from the anti-hadith group or orientalist "scholars". And he may have allowed (uncensored) comments from members from the anti-hadith group. Yes, and the reason he appears one-sided is because "pro-hadith" Muslims (sorry, I can't find a better expresssion in this context) have not been as active in contributing to his blog and rebutting the anti-hadith arguments.

But to label him as anti-Islam is unfair. His passion and fearlessness in fighting for truth and justice, I am certain, stems from his unshakeable faith in God, nurtured through his long and intimate acquaintance with people like Haji Hadi Awang and others.

Be that as it may, only Allah knows the truth. But I feel strongly that you youself should be more careful in using the "anti-Islam" label, because that amounts to saying that someone is a "kafir". And we know how serious it is for our own eternal soul when one wrongly calls a believer a "kafir". Naudzu billahi min dzalik.

Anonymous said...

Don ever forget RPK is one of d key factors of Pakatan success
----------------------------------

That bullsh!t..MT never posted "Tak Nak BN"..RPK himself admitted he has links with Perdana Foundation boys, and still respects Mahaptuih!!!Only after the general elections,he became ,what shall I say,became "kawan" Anwar..prior to dat,all the article in MT,gave a lot on emphasis on Ku lI(The so called the one and only finance whiz..Ku lI the PM in waiting...)

Anonymous said...

Yes,I too pray for the safety of Teresa Kok n RPK.RPK after all is also a human being,like all humans,we r all prone to errors.I fear his life could be in danger.

Anonymous said...

emaar,

There's no need to charge rpk in Syariah Court. He desrve what he is getting now. A lot of what he wrote, not just the religious things, are half-truths and concoctions. Even in the heat of my own "hatred" of the present government, I can see that.

becakayu

Dominic said...

Generally speaking, Malaysians are not equip at all for critical thinking or analysis, hence a very knee-jerk response is given whenever a "sensitive" issue is being questioned/raised.

RPK's fight is not only aimed at the hypocrites, but also our small-mindedness.
If you read his articles at face value, you will either get very excited because he has managed to put the words to your thoughts or, the opposite - very riled up. But if analyse deeper, there is much to gain. Unfortunately due to the lack of mature thinking, "mob-mentality" always rule at RPK's blogs.
i.e if he criticizes the DAP or chinese for not wanting to wear the songkok, the malays roar in approval, if he hits out at the dubious muslim practices, the non-muslims roar in approval. If he says malays are lazy, the others roar to approval, if he says the chinese are crooks, the others chime in with boo-yeahs.
It is hard to gauge a balance response, void of partisanship. Sad isn't it, to me it is.

For me, his criticism of the hypocrites transcends religions because it applies to the other faiths just as well. If you change Islam to Christianity, one can find correlations to his arguments.

But please recognise that his fight is with the corrupted practices of the leaders (past, present & future) who lie and cheat the rakyat at every turn possible and yet uses the religion to hide their sin (and get away with it).
At the same time he is also trying to challenge all of us to be a better witness to our way of life, religion and character. Malaysians ought to be proud and celebrate our unique background of rojakness because we "understand" that each of us enriches our neighbour in character and the way we practice our own religious faith in relation and respect of each other.
If you fail to understand that now, then you are still unable to see the trees of the forest, for you are so engrossed in the leaf. That is how small minded we are.

There is still some salvation for the leaf people though, why don't you engage RPK with regards to his views in itself. Although I don't know the man, I'm sure he welcomes constructive arguments but be prepared to have an open mind for it. For that's how we learn, including him.
But if your purpose is to convert his view points, then don't bother, he is already married.

DKFC

Anonymous said...

The main reason people "masok" MT is to find out "juicy tales",secrets of the ruling $h!t heads that were revealed to RPK by his "deep thoats".His personal analysis..man,laughable lah..he labeled indians muslims as "mad cow freaks"(hah,"pete doesnt know the fact that indian muslim,especailly those who came from India dont eat beef at all!!!)..his version of islam is based on his his personal beliefs lah,nothing more...and his diehard followers,the so called KL elite bums r responsbile of his "demigod" status..i have received some reports last year(dunno true or not),that Chandra Muzzafar supplied lot's of "input" to Pete..and some of them were really fit for the bin..Well,Pete is rich,has a bimmer,a 4 wheel drive,so he aint got nothin to lose man..the real heroes r the ordinary freedom fighters who r suffering year after year in kamunting..PAS has a fund for the ISA detainees..the figure stands @ RM53k..Ahmad Lutfi Otman,the firbrand editor of Harkahdaily(Pete is not fit to kiss his foot!!!) recently gave $$ frm that fund to wives,relatives of the ISA detainees..Ahmad Lutfi also gave to the wive of one ISA detainee Sanjeev Kumar...Sanjeev's wife now works as a security guard,earning RM600.oo per ponth..Pete,not even once called for fund raising for the ISA detainees..but they created a fund for bloggers lah...all these candle light vigil,g00 talk about the one and only revolutianry,makes me wanna puke!!But I hope he is safe n sound,n is released soon

Anonymous said...

Mr Steven Ee as the initiator of the petition to the Kinrara Mosque, can u please publish the actual petition and the names of the signatories to the petition in this blog and send a copy to the Editor of the STAR Dato Wong please?.He is a cahmpion of the truth.we must assist him in his mission.Tq .Best wishes STeve.
Arjun

nawfal said...

TB,

Thank you. Indeed 'justice' will be a more appropriate choice of word.

Emmar,

The consequence of the charge will be justice meted out according to the Shariah law. The Shariah court will decide it.

Get it?

nawfal said...

Anon September 14, 2008 3:26 PM was quite right. Petra's had a bunch of gullible followers mainly urbanne non-muslims and muslims who turned to be secularist who never hesitate to elevate him to the level of demigod. These people thought he is the one who move Malaysian political scenario. Poorah!!

Take bersih movement for example. I was almost vomitting reading in his Mtoday when these gullible men and women kept on praising & congratulating Petra's as if he was the main person behind success of the movement.

When in reality, almost 80% of the Bersih rally participants were Malays (mainly PAS supporters) from outside KL, who came upon campaign and persuasion from the grassroot PAS leaders.

Stop being duped into treating this spinmaster as a demigod. He definitely does not deserve an ISA, but he must be charged for insulting Islam.

Anonymous said...

It doesn't matter what RPK said about the hijab, it's his own views for yours truly commentors and readers of Malaysia Today. If he doesn't like his wife or daughter to wear hijab then the burdens is on him not ours. If you feel his views are wrong you should correct him not isolate him. So stop saying RPK is anti-islamic. He have obligations we have obligations too.

Fendy

nawfal said...

Fendy,

Fine if RPK doesn't like his wife or daughter to wear hijab. This country does not have any law to impose hijab on them. All we can do is advise and continue to advise him and his family.

But don't try to twist the issue. We are not that concern about his wife and daughters (although we do pity them). The issue here is that RPK was trying to propogate his warp and deviant view on Islam - be it on hijab, the seerah of Rasulullah, or even aqeedah!!

He has misuse his obligations and therefore we can't stop just to let him continue with this anti-islamic rhetoric.

At this moment, until proven otherwise, I must say that RPK is a dangerous person and anti Islam.

Anonymous said...

Nawfal,

Please spare me the tedium of spelling it out over and over again (apparently you are the one who does not get it). I asked for specifics and you talk in generalities.

Let me try just one more time.

(a) what are the exact charges you believe RPK should face? and

(b) assuming such charges, name a few precedents from past legal judgments that could influence the decision of the present Shariah court in this case.

Emmar

nawfal said...

emmar,
I am not a shari'e law practitioner, so please spare me the tedium of spelling the exact charge and providing the the precedents. You can ask shari'e legal practioner about that.

If you want to score points, by all means please continue harping on exact charge bla bla. Not everyone is created as lawyer.

All I know, from shariah perspective he had done a big mistake by committing slanders against Saiyadatina Aishah r.a. and Sayyidina Ali kwj.

All I know, from Shariah perspective, RPK was trying to propogate a deviant teaching on aurat, by insisting on certain concocted view and understanding on that particular subject. This is allegedly done with intention to confuse muslim.

All I know , there have been many times where he led half-truth or untrue story on the closest companions of the Rasulullulah. That is making fitnah against those promised jannah by the Rasulullah.

These are some examples of RPK's antiques that qualify him for charges in Shariah court. Go to the 20007 Archives on No Hold Barred section and you'll find more.

nawfal said...

And all I know, he has been allowing his forumers or visitors to make all kind of insult against Islam ever since I learnt about the site in 2004.

Those clearly qualify him for charges under Seditious Act.

kiddokit said...

I have to object to Anonymous September 14, 2008 3:26 PM for his one-sided vilification of RPK.

(By the way, Tulang Besi, can you not allow anonymous postings? The same reason that Rocky Bru once tried to disallow such postings. It is tiring to just call someone Anonymous which date, what time)

Okay, coming back to this particular Anonymous. There are many types of heroes. Let's not stereotype them under only one category. If Ahmad Lutfi wants to start a fund, hey, that's his way. If he finds a job for the wife of one of the ISA detainees, hey, good for him.

Why should (and must) RPK tread the same path? Conversely, I too don't expect Ahmad Lutfi to do it RPK's way. In fact, not many bloggers (or ordinary M'sians, for that matter) can have the types of 'Deep Throats' that he surrounds himself with. The 'juicy tales' as you call it, that RPK sensationally reveals -- now, how many other Malaysians can ever hope to have access to it? Or more seriously, even if you do have that information in your hands, how many of us would have the balls to reveal those salacious details to the whole world? Would you, Anonymous? If you answer a YES, then you'd be one of those whom Ahmad Lutfi may have to dip his fingers into the ISA fund to rescue! Hah!

Exactly henceforth why RPK is a bloody hero to all of us mere simple mortals called Malaysians. We shake and quiver with such power in our hands to condemn the BN Govt, but RPK just does it wholesale. That's a hero, alright.

As for your other comment that RPK has 'laughable analysis' for his take on the 'mad cow disease' supposedly afflicting some Indian Muslims, it is you who deserves to be laughed at! What a simpleton you are, Anonymous! Don't you know a tongue-in-cheek story when you see one? Why take that story so seriously? You honestly thought RPK was giving an in-depth analysis of certain Indian Muslims in this country?

Maybe you are right afterall! Perhaps RPK's writings are only suitable for the more uptown KL elite bums (that's what you called us, wasn't it?). Simple ones like you really do have a hard time with it!

Dominic said...

kudos Kiddokit, one of the reasons that I enjoy RPK's writings is his sarcasm, tongue-in-cheek quips and double-edged comments.

Emmar, I think that it ought to be clear by now that you're not going to get the answer that you seek because I do not think that there is any preceding (high profile) case like RPK's that the Syariah Court has encountered. Hence nobody dare to say out loud what they feel except that they would like something more than throwing the book at RPK. Also with the 'intense' media circus hawking such a case, there would be unbelievable pressure on the judges involve (not to mention meddling too).
Cross that bridge when we get to it ya..

Anonymous said...

Ironbone,

I pray to Allah since 1963, 5x a day. Since 1984, Allah opened me up to Sufi/Tasawwuf inclinations, ie, closer to the Truth of Divinity.

There is a Firman, in Hadith Qudsi that God looks at your heart, if its good, everything else is good, if its bad, everything else about the person is bad.

I do not know RPK's spiritual inclination but I am not in the least provoked by his writings that I have read.

But I am provoked by the Jakim, Jawi, Jaip, etc. i think they act very unIslamic at times.

Only in Akhirat will you know who is right or wrong, unless of course if Allah Enlightens you here itself. Try hard to remember and obey Him, cleanse your heart of material desires and He may choose you as His Wali (friend).

Finally, remember that God is The Judge of Judges, so dont judge others, try judging ourselves instead.

Muslim Idealist

Anonymous said...

Dominic,

I don't think that RPK's case being 'high profile' or new to Malaysia's Shariah court makes the questions themselves novel in the context of Islamic jurisprudence. The answers are there, but the reluctance to discuss them appears to be founded in a general ignorance (my own is no exception) of the law by commentators to this blog thread.

That is why I am particularly interested in soliciting the visceral reactions of laypeople -- that which all of you feel is appropriate punishment vis-a-vis the crime.

Because -- my earlier comment to separate law and emotion non withstanding -- laws that are 'on the books' are always enforced selectively with varying degrees of vigor -- and that vigor can be driven or prodded by public/popular opinion (or, perhaps, by former MBs).

A hypothetical Shariah-governed Malaysia's priorities would likely represent a significant changes from current policies. But how would (so-called) free speech fare under Shariah and to what extent will restrictive laws be enforced?

Under the current system, supporters of restrictive laws invoke accusations of treason and sedition often in the name of 'protecting' the 'rights' of a threatened majority; while opposition claims these laws restrict natural rights, whether endowed by a Creator, by a State, or international convention. These positions are mutable and one might envision a reversal of roles in the future. Indeed, and somewhat ironically, the Statist and Sharia'ist movement share common methods in the RPK case (and their blog trolls are often equally noxious). Perhaps this foreshadows realignment within these groups as their political fates, and that of the nation, evolve (as per the recent PAS/UMNO shenanigans).

(@Generalissimo: I appreciate your moderate tone earlier. In reply, we should not be too sanguine if the political theater of Al Arqam and Ayah Pin are taken as models, we might expect Shariah courts will be manipulated to highlight marginal cases for a brief time before pushing them back to the margins, solving little. I do not think that selective enforcement for the purpose of distracting the electorate would be productive in solving our deeper social and economic problems.)

Emmar

Tulang Besi said...

dominic says:

"
Emmar, I think that it ought to be clear by now that you're not going to get the answer that you seek because I do not think that there is any preceding (high profile) case like RPK's that the Syariah Court has encountered. Hence nobody dare to say out loud what they feel except that they would like something more than throwing the book at RPK. Also with the 'intense' media circus hawking such a case, there would be unbelievable pressure on the judges involve (not to mention meddling too).
Cross that bridge when we get to it ya.."

REPLY: Tq for making a good point. But in fact there is.

For one, does the word Al Maunah reminds u of anything? They were actually indicted in a Shariah court.

SO, RPK case can also follow the same precedence.

Don't ask EMmar. He's a Muslim Liberal so he doesn't like Islamic Jurisprudence.

Tulang Besi said...

Fendy says:

"It doesn't matter what RPK said about the hijab, it's his own views for yours truly commentors and readers of Malaysia Today. If he doesn't like his wife or daughter to wear hijab then the burdens is on him not ours. If you feel his views are wrong you should correct him not isolate him. So stop saying RPK is anti-islamic. He have obligations we have obligations too."

REPLY: The issue now is not RPK don't want his family to wear hijab or not.

The issue now is RPK denying a clear injunction in the Islamic Jurisprudence.

ANd RPK has no basis for doing so except his own wild and untamed interpretation of his English Quran.

And he gives space only to Anti Hadeeth beliefs, which is clearly a broken sect and not to mention deviated.

Tulang Besi said...

Emmar says:

"A hypothetical Shariah-governed Malaysia's priorities would likely represent a significant changes from current policies. But how would (so-called) free speech fare under Shariah and to what extent will restrictive laws be enforced?"

REPLY: SHariah courts is for adjucating cases, among all, with regards to blasphemy.

Blasphemy is deemed as felony in Islam. So, the issue of freedom of speech doesn't arise at all.

And anyone who believes in absolute freedom deserves to be committed in a sanitarium.

Even in America, there are thousands of Supreme Court Judgements used as "limits" to various freedom mentioned in the US Constitutions and their Bill of Rights.

so, please don't use the nonsense line of "freedom of speech" to project a negative image of the Shariah system.

The real problem here is your abject ignorance of the Shariah system. If you had learned Shariah, you wouldn't use words that's too big for you like "hypothetical".

My advice to you, Emmar, is to quit yapping and start learning. It'll do you a world of a good. Trust me.

And you can start learning by reading an article by a Jew name Noah Felding about Shariah at this address: http://www.malaysiawaves.com/2008/05/islamic-shariah-offered-most-liberal.html

Anonymous said...

Tulang Besi,

Thats why I said earlier, if he said something wring we should correct him. We supposed to be his friends cum responsible bloggers what..

I also didnt agree with RPK, I know he said some unappropiate matter but anyone shouldnt be tried just because he said his mind...

if you look at the comments in his articles a lot of people didnt agreed with him...

thats good bloging what, you have arguments and comments.

Fendy

Anonymous said...

Who is this emmar bugger?..one of RPK's r's lickers kot?lol!!..Man,dis RPK fella...wants 2 be a "somebody" ..he call himself a hippy..hehe..but,all he did was fine tune his bike,smoke "grass",n keep long hair..( a true hippy trully felt the impact of massive dynamic changes that were happenin in our "air"..i m not joking..ini kisah benar..)..i m not trying to "merendahkan" RPK..He has done many things which helped the reformasi movement...it's just that he has gone back to his usual self/normal selflah..that is making money,bla bla siki pasai demokrasi,human rights,religion ala secular,party,glamour n limelight..me just hope,a day will come n make RPK realize ,beer n nirvana cannot co existlah...oh regarding tudung,tutup aurat..the psycological meaning of it is to make someone fell "suci n bersih"..nothing wrong at all..in fact,there is a process which can envelope our physical self n make it trully suci n bersih..hah,ini memang boleh dilakukan!!..:-)

Anonymous said...

Tulang,

I am sorry to have to say this so bluntly: you are as obnoxious as you are ignorant. To top it off, your consistent misunderstanding of my comments show that your understanding of English is extremely poor -- you and your "me too" acolytes may be corrected over and over but it is fruitless to speak to those with black hearts.

Those truths said, let me clear some things up for others who may be confused by Tulang Besi's reply.

...

"so-called free speech", as I wrote, implies two things:

(a) in no case is speech truly free, and

(b) free speech is a symbolic reference, exploited by different parties for different purposes. It does not imply (a)

Reading my earlier comments carefully could have saved you (and anyone else reading this) at least four paragraphs of your paranoid rant.

...

"hypothetical" was used to describe a potential scenario in which Malaysia became governed under a Shariah system. It does not describe the positive or negative aspects of such a system. I suggest that you consult a dictionary before you insult me.

If you had read carefully, you would see that it is not the Shariah system that is potentially problematic, it is the potential abuse of a Shariah system. If you are such an expert on Shariah as you suggest (but which I doubt), then we should all be concerned as you have shown your intellect to be based in trite personal attacks, not reason, nor apparently reading comprehension.

...

Finally, to call me a "Muslim Liberal", while not a slur in itself, is not entirely accurate either -- God has created us to be liberal in some ways, conservative in others.

What are more important to me are the issues we discuss, not the personal aspects of those that discuss them.

I find it fascinating that you see me as liberal from my comments as the issue of liberal interpretation has not been my project -- unless you find guarding against the exploitation of Islam by black-hearted Muslims to be 'liberal'.

Emmar

Anonymous said...

correction to the previous comment should read:

(b) free speech is a symbolic reference, exploited by different parties for different purposes. It does not imply unfettered speech

Emmar

Anonymous said...

Mate,anything can be abused on this planet..beer is healthy actually(liquid bread;-) ) but boozin non stop, turns a man or a women in2 a drunkard r's hole..;)..

Anonymous said...

Highest form of speech is no speech at all..yes sah!!!Tremendous rock solid silence calmness which can shake up this world!!

Tulang Besi said...

Emmar,

Maybe if you try writing things with less vagueness, people will be able to understand u better.

Anonymous said...

To All except Tulang: please ignore this unfortunately necessary retort.
.............

Tulang Besi whined:

"Maybe if you try writing things with less vagueness, people will be able to understand u better."
...

Are you referring to my calling you "obnoxious" or "ignorant", possessing a "black heart" or saying you have an extremely poor understanding of English?

All are true. Which one is vague exactly?

Emmar

Anonymous said...

I am Teoh here.( no hiding of identity for me) My impression ? You guys seem to be judge, jury, theologians, iman, religious interpriters, heros, defenders of justice - all rolled into one ! Sometimes, you are this and sometimes you are that.
I say - "to each his own !", " one man' meat is another man' poison", " judge not, and thou shalt not be judge", " vengeance is mine, sayeth the Lord " , " the truth shall prevail "
Keep it up fellas ! Healthy, mature discussion, debates, are much better than what happened during the recent Datuk Ahmad Ismail's press conference ! That guy should be SHOT ! So he will need ISA protections - maybe for 3 years !
Chiao !

Dominic said...

Emmar, TB,
Truly there is no common platform for the current exchange of idea to be productive. There was a hint in the beginning, but that was it. The rest were pot-shots label callings.
Such is the typical 'frustrated' Malaysian mentality, the need to take pot shots when are faced with "difficult" questions, regardless of race and religion, vague or not.

Accountability - is what is lacking in the society. Just look at the stuff that is being uttered from the mouth of the police, ministers et al, a total lack of respect to the Malaysian People and insulting.

With that said, I personally do not have faith in the any of the courts of the land, Shariah or Courts of law, simply because the abuse of the system and emotional attachments know no bounds. Under the guise of "freedom of speech" and "blasphemy", anything can be concocted.

And then there're quarrels on all sides, extremist vs liberalist, racial-inequality, penumpangan, etc. Who comes out as winner? Look at those people who can carry million of A$ in briefcases, built houses in Australia under guises, get away in the oil-for-food scandals. Do they care about all these quarrels? YES because they pocket the benefits of it.

Why is there no resolute call for Ahmad Ismail's and Khir Toyo's ass to be thrown into the ISA together with the RPK, Teresa and Tan?
Why is it OK to rape an underage girl and still be a leader of the land (and even offer to stand for office again for that matter?)

If you argue that they are of the ruling party, then clearly there is a ruling party islamic practice that has no accountability to the society then. By saying that RPK is anti-islamic, then by golly those islamic practices of the ruling party should be anti-islamic too, am I not right? That is what is written the the "no Holds Barred" in the MT blog. So while you condemn RPK, why not cast the net wider to those who live the life contrary to the call of the islamic teachings but yet say that they are islam?

From here let me digress from religion.
While we continue to bicker over this, be engross in the theological arguments, we forget to live for each other. Hence we as a nation continue to lose out to other countries in economic terms. Since the early 70's, we've lost to Singapore, Taiwan, Korea, Hong Kong. Currently Indonesia, Thailand has surpassed us and hot on their heels are Vietnam.

Malaysians of all walks of life, are going over to Singapore and Vietnam, Indonesia and Australia to join in the fight for work contracts against Malaysia. How do we address this brain drain? How do we chart out a way to be relevant in the economic sense because if we don't, then inflation continue to rise, price of goods begin to rise, cost of education begin to rise... our grandchildren suffers from all these.

Pick your fight.

Anonymous said...

Dominic,
We made our beds - so we have to sleep on it !
We screw up Malaysia as a country, then our future generations will suffer. Those with tons ( literally) of money, won't be hanging around.They have already , ( after 50 long years) made preparations to leave, if this boat sinks. Only you and I will be around to bail out the water - or drown ! But then there is always a ray of hope....perhaps, with combined efforts, we might still salvage Malaysia.

Dominic said...

I do hope we can start the seed of change from here on, and help it become a strong Pokok Assam (not the one in Taiping hor - pokok yang betul ne).
I really would like to change my tilam to something nicer, hell not only my bed, my bedroom and house for that matter..
Cheers.

Anonymous said...

Yes,2day we can safely say Malaysians "dah sedar",but for donkey years,we kept on voting barisan hapraks..janji they dont garu our backs,n we have the freedom to bikin lui, makan,minum,,shopping,main games,tenggok movie,surfing,cari babes,etc etc..

Anonymous said...

Btw,read reports RPK is on a hunger strike?He wanna be Gandhi ke?RPK said many times,he wants to be in a lockup,masuk jail,n wants the prison guards to throw away the keys..this shows he has the disire to b a martyr..tapi in his last article,he hopes,Rakatan takes over soon,n he is freed..yes..RPK,Teresa Kok n all the penghunis' of hotel kamunting mesti dibebaskan!!

note:bro lutfi said sanjeev kumar has become lumpuh due to brutality ...

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