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Wednesday, September 24, 2008

To Islam, "Shariah" is Synonymous to "Rule of Law"

I think the Noah Feldman article may be a bit complex and lengthy for many to spend time to read and understand. Below are summary to the article that I think will help many to understand the Noah Feldman article better.


But first let me explain my motivation for doing this. It is not by anyway trying to influence Non Muslims into accepting the Shariah as their overriding law. I strongly believe that Non Muslims should not be subjected to the Shariah as they do not believe in the Quran and Sunnah.

If you don’t accept Shariah, that is your right. I won’t fault you for it.. But I take offense when lies are being uttered with regards to Islam and Shariah. That is my motivation for writing many postings on Shariah lately. It’s not by any way trying to campaign for Shariah, it is only meant to fight lies and half-truth currently being aired in the blogwave by a few unscrupulous “Muslims”.

Notice that I am promoting an article written by a Jewish author and opposing articles written by people who claims to be Muslims i.e. Raja Petra, Mustafa Akyol, Haris Ibrahim etc. To me, it’s not important who says it, what’s important is what is being said.

Summary of Noah Feldman Article

Here is the summarized version of the article for our easy understanding:

  1. The Shariah has been the instrument for maintaining the “rule of law” in the 1400 years of Islamic rule, whether it’s Caliphate or Sultanate.

  1. To Muslims, the concept of “Rule of Law” and “Shariah” is interchangeable. This is because the Shariah has been instrumental in preventing power concentrated to the executive (in the form of Caliphate or Sultans)

  1. Since Shariah, derived from Al Quran, As Sunnah, Ijma (Consensud) and Qiyas (allegory) cannot stand on it’s own, it requires a group of people in the society to “operate” it. This group of people has come to be known to us as Scholars, “Ulama” or “Mullah”.

  1. Caliphates and Sultans gains their legitimacy as rulers and executives from the “Scholar”class. In return, the power to legislate and adjudicate are given to the “scholars” thus ensuring the rule of law.

  1. The Caliphates are limited to executive decisions and regulations but they have control of the Army. However, since the “Ulama” has control in matters of laws, the balance of power is maintained.

  1. In short, “rule of law” and “separation of powers” has been in practice in Islam for the last 1400 years.

  1. Mullah’s and Scholars have been the agent of stability and predictability as quoted below:


As a confident, self-defined elite that controlled and administered the law according to well-settled rules, the scholars were agents of stability and predictability — crucial in societies where the transition from one ruler to the next could be disorderly and even violent.”

  1. They are a good check and balance to the government in terms of preventing tyranny and oppression

And by controlling the law, the scholars could limit the ability of the executive to expropriate the property of private citizens. This, in turn, induced the executive to rely on lawful taxation to raise revenues, which itself forced the rulers to be responsive to their subjects’ concerns.”

  1. The last Chaliphate, the Ottomans, even tried to introduce democracy and open elections to elect their executive bodies. If the Ottoman was not toppled, they would have been the first democratic political institution in Modern Europe

  1. Success of Islam is attributable to Shariah as Noah Feldman puts it:

    The scholars and their law were thus absolutely essential to the tremendous success that Islamic society enjoyed from its inception into the 19th century.”

  1. “Shariah” is actually a “higher law” with some specifics. It is fixed and cannot be altered. In matters where the Shariah is silence, or in specifics not addressed by Shariah, and where most of Islamic Jurisprudence activities happen, the area is known as “Fiqh”.

  1. So, there is no such thing as Islam being rigid and inflexible as matters with regards to modern world challenges is debated in “Fiqh” wth the use of “Al Ijtihad”.

In conclusion, I’d like to stress again the fact that Shariah and Islam is heavily being discredited with lies and half-truths by people who claims to be “muslims:. I am not advocating that Shariah is imposed on Non Muslims.

I am just asking the Non Muslims community in this country to understand why “Shariah” is such a fundamental aspect of Muslim’s life. Please do not take advice on Shariah and Islam from known enemies of “Shariah” like Zainah Anwar, Haris Ibrahim, RPK, Mustafa Akyol and the rest.

Tulang Besi

.

56 comments:

Anonymous said...

Can you give me one state which had succefully used shariah as the basic law?

Tulang Besi said...

Well to begin with, all Muslim states are ruled by secular elites

But, as for the handful of states that implements Shariah, they are recording sucsess i.e. Saudi Arabia, Iran, Pakistan etc

Anonymous said...

If Saudi Arabia, Iran and Pakistan are the examples of successful implementation of the shariah as quoted by you , then as a non-Muslim,i am sorry to inform that please keep the shariah to the Muslims.Please do not extend to the Muslims as these three states are truly failed states.

Tulang Besi said...

Tell me, why are these states considered failed states?

For instance, in Saudi Arabia, multinationals are investing by the billions each year? Is that a form of a failed state?

Iran and Pakistan are nuclear power states and have defeated the Americans and Russians respectively. What is so bad about them?

Here's a list of secular civil-law based Muslims states that easily qualifies as "failed states"?

If i take your logic, tell me why I should keep with western secular civil laws?

Iraq, Egypt, Bangladesh..need I continue??

You must've been getting information from anti Islam sources about these states. That's why you look upon them negatively.

Oh, on SAudi Arabia, check out my article in this blog entitle "life in Taleban Country pt 1" and "part 2" and then tell me if Saudi Arabia is a bad example.

Anonymous said...

The fact that MNCs have invested billions in Saudi Arabia does not make it a successful state or have anything to say about the jurisprudence of Syariah laws.

Saudi Arabia is rich with oil, thus the investments.

The fact that a nuclear power country defeats another also does not reflect anything about the effectiveness of any type of law. Many examples abound to refute your logic. Sadam's Iraq was invaded or defeated by the US but that does not mean that the US state is superior or the Iraq state is inferior. No relevance.

Tulang Besi said...

Dear Anon,

The fact that 75% of secular states in the world are failed states doesn't strike you at all as odd?

Did u ever consider that fact? Among the glaringly failed secular states are Rwanda, Yugoslavia, Cuba, Russia, the entire South American states, India etc.

The worst of human tragedy occured in secular states.

So, tell me, what is the initiative for Muslims to adopt secularism

Tulang Besi said...

Also, i need you to be specific.

What is the problem with the implementation of shariah in Saudi Arabia, Pakistan and Iran?

For one, you don't actually hear rape occuring as many times as in New York if you're living in Riyadh.

Isn't that a sign of success in implementation of shariah, marked reduction of crime compared to western states?

Karim Roslan said...

Tulang Besi,

For your information, harping on whether Iran or Pakistan are nuclear states or not, are irrelevant.

Possession of nuclear armament does not indicate societal or economic progress.

I have Iranian and Pakistani friends. The Iranians do not like to talk about their religio-social system. In general, most of them dislike it and wish for things to be like it was, socially speaking, before the Iranian Revolution. My Iranian colleagues speak of the sheer lack of democracy in the political system because of how the supreme council and presidential systems are interlocked. The people cannot bring about change. It's a deadlock. Furthermore, the religious political spreads propaganda in universities, schools and so on to influence youths to support its cause, and it is regrettable according to my colleagues because it is a form of brainwashing that limits their thinking. It is a sad state of affairs socio-politically in Iran, although all is not bad. They have a decent economic life. But socially repressed.

My Pakistani friends on the other hand are thankful to leave the country. This is not only because of the general political strife there, but also the chaotic nature of their society in some places. Also, they say that many regions of Pakistan are to all intents and purposes "lawless" -- provinces or districts run by religious groups with their own agenda of toppling formal provincial and federal rule and of aggressively spreading religionism despite not all Pakistanis wanting it. A lot of propaganda also is found there, where the young are brainwashed in their madrasahs.

We as Malaysians must guard against religious excesses. We must remain moderate and secular as our Federal Constitution, the supreme law of the land, holds, and as our Rukunegara states.

This does not in any way compromise or reduce anyone's religiosity (for it is finally between us and Allah/God/etc.). Everyone is free to practice their respective religions as much as they like but there is no state-based coercion or state-based propaganda or dakwah of any sort. The state remains neutral to all its citizens, ruling or administrating based on secular laws that are compatible with Islamic or any other religious teachings.

This is the way forward for us Malaysians.

Salam.

Antares said...

The three states you named as following Shariah - Saudi Arabia, Iran and Pakistan - all reek severely of patriarchy, a hideous scourge upon the Goddesshood of Earth. My Mother would NEVER tolerate Shariah if these benighted states exemplify its practice.

Anonymous said...

Dear Tulang Besi,

I’m the one who asked you the first Question and you answered Iran, Pakistan and Saudi. Furthermore, you also outlined other secular failed state such as Indian and some South American states. I just want to ask you what your measurement of failed state is? I’m sorry to say but I think Brother Tulang Besi you explanation only shows that you’re to naïve on the matter of shariah. For your note, if Muslims going to think like you, then I have no choice but to say sorry, im totally against any version of Iran Pakistan n Saudi (the most successful and advance countries as you said as the outcome of Using shariah law) in Malaysia.

Anonymous said...

Rape in New York reported but in Saudi women are slaves of Man, no wonder you're not getting any reports(plus 4 withness and no DNA). If Iran, Pakistan and Saudi are so advance states using shariah law, i think there is something realiy wrong within muslims.

Ikrak said...

Muslims and Malays (Bumiputra) will continue to be despised and look down by non-Muslims and non-Malays because of the deegrading conduct and behavior of Muslims/Malays at all level and class of society.

I being a Muslim/Malays have no respect for the Muslim/Malays in Malaysia particular those that come from UMNO!

No sane non-Muslims/Malays are going to listen or follow your Shariah craps.

Joseph said...

Don't do unto others that you don't want others to do unto you. Shariah is only for muslims, don't propagate it to non-muslims. They don't share your view of how good that set of rules is. Besides, I personally feel that most islamic laws are punitive and unforgiving, especially hudud. You sure it's laws from a merciful god?

Anonymous said...

When i was 15, i was raped by a Uztaz who always carries a holy book and preachers Shariah law. My parents said i was lying. I lost faith in religion. Let me tell you tulang besi, out there Uztaz are more dangerous then foreign workers what kind a shariah law you are talking about, what will you do if this happen to your daughter?

Anonymous said...

The actual debate is essentially this: Should religious practices be imposed on people who do not share the same religious interpretations?

If the simple answer is a resounding No! (which is the consensus among the sensisble posts above), then the next question is: Can the practice of religion (and the love of God) be the free will of its practitioners or is it best to enforce it through punishment and penalties?

Secular state and its basic laws should overide the draconian laws of any religious group. Even if 9 out 10 Muslims want to have hudud laws legislated in any state, the basic human rights of that minority single Muslim citizen should be protected by the law.

Mixing laws of the state with religious laws is like mixing petrol and water. It is of no use to either God or mankind.

Karim Roslan said it most clearly. I am just adding more meat to his view.

Tulang Besi said...

Dear Antares,

Much of what we have heard from the implementation of shariah in the three states are from anti shariah sources, i.e. the liberal international news media.

But, living in Saudi Arabia like I am right now, i found out that 80% of what is told about Saudi Arabia by the foreign media is just utter nonsense.

As for the implementation of shariah is concerned, Pakistan may have failed in a lot of basic things but since the start of the i implementation of shariah, the people of Pakistan has not even asked for the law to be repealed.

If the Shariah is a failure in Pakistan, it would have had so much repurcussions by now from the people, yet nothing. In fact, all of the secular rulers of Pakistan dare not touch the SHariah.

As for Iran, well what can I say? Is there any evidence that the implementation of shariah there is a failure? When was the last time you heard Iranians coming out by the millions protesting the implementation of Shariah laws in Iran?

See, these are all facts that international media does not highlight.

They prefer to highlight lies that is perpretated by anti-Islam Muslims rather than anything else.

Again, i challange all of you to show me evidence that the implementation of Shariah in Pakistan, SAudi Arabia and Iran is a failure?

Tulang Besi said...

Anonymous said...

The actual debate is essentially this: Should religious practices be imposed on people who do not share the same religious interpretations?


REPLY: Your question is vague, I'd appreciate if u can be a bit more specific.

To start off with, what do you mean by "people who do not share the same religous interpretation"?

What people are u talking about? Can u quote me an example?

Tulang Besi said...

Anonymous Anonymous said...

Rape in New York reported but in Saudi women are slaves of Man, no wonder you're not getting any reports(plus 4 withness and no DNA). If Iran, Pakistan and Saudi are so advance states using shariah law, i think there is something realiy wrong within muslims.

REPLY: One question, when u make this statement, did you actually see Saudi women becoming slaves?

Funny, a recent report from Arab News says that 40% of business owners in Saudi are women. I do not think slaves can own properties, can they?

Furthermore, i live in SAudi Arabia right now and I do not see any sign of women being enslaved.

Not unless you consider motherhood full time as a form of slavery, like all feminists.

Tulang Besi said...

For anyone who claims that the implementation of shariah in Saudi Arabia is a failure, feel free to peruse these links:

a.http://www.malaysiawaves.com/2008/06/life-in-taleban-country-pt-3.html

b.http://www.malaysiawaves.com/2008/05/life-in-taleban-country-pt-2.html

c.http://www.malaysiawaves.com/2008/05/life-in-taliban-country-pt-1.html

Tulang Besi said...

Anonymous Anonymous said...

When i was 15, i was raped by a Uztaz who always carries a holy book and preachers Shariah law. My parents said i was lying. I lost faith in religion. Let me tell you tulang besi, out there Uztaz are more dangerous then foreign workers what kind a shariah law you are talking about, what will you do if this happen to your daughter?

September 24, 2008 12:59 PM

REPLY: I cannot say much, but rape is an offense in Islam. It doesn't matter who commits it, whether and Ustaz or non Ustaz.

In Malaysia, many individuals are given the title Ustaz by society when they are not qualified to receive it. So, i think this is one of those ustaz.

In Egypt, the term "ustaz" means
"Sir".

If any it is your parents that must be blamed for not allowing you to press charges.

I think it is still not to late to press charges although the crime of rape will be handled in the Civil courts, since the Shariah court has no jurisdiction.

Anonymous said...

You have a good answer Tulang BESI.. The guys who disagree with you seem that not very well understand the HUDUD LAW... and ya true maybe they heard ot from liberal or anti islam sources which most of it is bias and been Exaggerated

nur iman said...

salam. not many muslim can truly defend islam just like you do. islam is the WAY OF LIFE for all muslims. it is prescribed by Allah, if other muslims can't accept this then ask yourself, who is your GOD? may allah reward your effort with His jannah. please include us in your lailatul qadar doa, may we be a brave muslim just like you.

Anonymous said...

People,

What about the Ottoman, Abbasid and Umayyad dynasties? Aren't they not proof that Shariah laws can help Muslims progress? Okay, they might not be 100% Shariah -compliant, but still, at their heydey, the West was nothing.

Don't blame Shariah rules for the decay in Muslim nations' progress. The degree of success a country attains depends on the sincerity and capability of its leaders. That's why you have a developed secular countries (e.g. USA, France) and backward secular countries (e.g. Philipines, Rwanda). One thing is consistent though, moral decay has happened in both countries.

And that's why you have great Muslim nations (e.g. the Ottoman Empire and the Abbassid Empire) and backward Muslim nations (modern day Pakistan and Iran).

I hope I have made my point clear. Its irresponsible of you guys to blame Islam and Shariah for the cause of underdevelopment and social turmoil in Muslim countries today. I'd be smart, and blame it on their leaders. And TB has a point, you guys continue whacking Shariah but you forget that the Burmese, Serbs, Cubans and Rwandans are primarily non-Muslims.

We Muslims believe in Shariah, and since we do, stop telling us that our system is bad for progress. What we believe is our business, and what you believe is your business. You cannot say that my belief is false, because I have chosen to believe in what I believe in, and vice-versa.

Generalismo

L_J said...

Dear Tulang Besi,

Thank you for explaining what you see as Syariah through your precis of Feldman's work.

I agree with you that Syariah is important to Muslims and understand why they feel that they must be governed by it. I also agree with you that the Syariah should not be forced on non-Muslims. Syariah is for Muslims and not Hindus, Christians, Jews, Buddhist et al.

But you have to appreciate that there are Muslims who wish to impose it on all the people of Malaysia (albeit different rules for Muslims and non-Muslims, but the source of those rules will be the Syariah). These are those we fear, not those who merely wish it for Muslims. I must say that – and you probably know this too – I don’t know of one non-Muslim in Malaysia (or for that matter anywhere in the world) who wishes to be regulated by the Syariah. It does not mean that they are making a judgment on whether Syariah is good or bad. It is simply the case that no one wishes to be governed by alien religious rules. In as much as no Muslim wishes to be governed by, say, Jewish laws, no non-Muslim wishes to be governed by the Syariah. If they wish such a thing they can always convert to Islam.

BUT hey brader – are you on drugs or something – to say that “as for the handful of states that implements Shariah, they are recording success i.e. Saudi Arabia, Iran, Pakistan etc”, you must be certifiable. Don’t you know what sh..t goes on in those backward, lawless, hypocritical and frightening countries. If these are the Syariah models, brader all the people must be permanently on dadah to want to live there if they had a choice. Gila betul lah kamu! Siau!

LJ

GoMalaysia said...

Marilah kita lihat Inilah Pemimpin Dipanggil pemimpin Rakyat

http://gomalaysian.blogspot.com/2008/09/malaysiakini-inilah-pemimpin-rakyat-lim.html

Anonymous said...

Adakah kamu semua,
1. Ulama
2. Mufti
3. Orang Alim aka Profesor Universiti dah yg setaraf dengannya
4. Hakim Mahkamah Syariah
5. Lawyer Mahkamah Syariah

Kalau korang bukan orang2 diatas, tolonglah berhenti komen tentang hukum syariah. Korang tak layak. Sebab orang macam kamulah Islam kena pandang rendah di seluruh dunia.

Kepada penulis blog ini, berhentilah omong2 kosong ko tu, aku tahu ko ni nak discredit orang dengan melalut suruh baca tulisan orang yahudi la, Kalau ko rasa RPK ke husin ke salah ko pergi bawa bukti ko kat mufti negeri ko lepas tu suruh diorang buat kenyataan.

boy from dungun said...

Dear Tulang Besi,
I am truly amazed at what you have written! You are so naive, narrow minded and on the way to becoming a religious bigot, if you continue this way.

Saudi Arabia, Pakistan & Iran are examples of basket case countries, my friend. Make no mistake about that! No matter what indicators you used to measure them, social, economic or political, these are but examples of three failed states, as what your respondents here are trying to put across to you in a polite way!

No matter what you say about Shariah in this case, I am sorry to say, but your argument doesnt hold water at all..!

As a fellow muslim, I am ashamed to note that, as a Muslim writer who tries to advance his thoughts to an educated audience, you have failed miserably..!

Anonymous said...

Tulang Besi,

Anonymous II said: "The actual debate is essentially this: Should religious practices be imposed on people who do not share the same religious interpretations?"


REPLY: Your question is vague, I'd appreciate if u can be a bit more specific.

To start off with, what do you mean by "people who do not share the same religous interpretation"?

What people are u talking about? Can u quote me an example?

--------------------------------

Wake up lah. People who need specific examples on the differences in religious interpretation and who like to quote other people's articles to reinforce their views lack any intellectual honesty.

Can you say/ask something original and truthful rather than censor the full post?

As I said, unifying religion with state laws is like mixing petrol with water. It is no use for either God or mankind. Now that is something original to keep your thinking process from being vague and from engaging in petty debates.

Anonymous said...

salam

if using Saudi,Pakistan as an example of succesfull Syariah implimentation..definitely i will not agree.

maybe you are right bout the crime index are lower compared to US and other secular countries.but, how bout other aspects that must be considered?as u mention, syariah is talking bout a way of life.

as u mention before are pertaining to the LAW of crime itself.should the explaination of SHARIAH must be widen including Economy,Akhlak,Music, Art, etc...

What is Saudi and Pakistan do with matters like Art, for an example?Also Pakistan...is it all of its citizen are FULLY understand the implementation of Syariah where the TRIBAL law are almost being misunderstood as ISLAMIC LAW?

Why not for the first stage, we didnt touch the matters pertaining to LAW (mean hudud) first.maybe we can discussed the concept of Islamic Economy first.

In time like this, i think most people are aware with their 'economy' first rather than the subject had been discussed.

I dont know hows your life right now (i mean your monthly income)you think, people muslim and non-muslim who are HARDLY LIVE in Malaysia are cared enough for topics like this?

Should to tackle their 'KEBAJIKAN' first.After all 'kebajikan' already settled than it should be a better time to discuss.

For me, as muslim i believe all SYARIAH COMPONENT itself BUT still i'm afraid what type of PEOPLE who will implement it.If people like TG Nik AZIA, maybe it doesnt matter.But if Ustz HARUN TAIB and sewaktu dengannya..sorry to say..for me..they are LACKING with style of PREACHING THE MULTICULTURAL SOCIETY with 'HIKMAH'.

Last and not least, dont forget in time of GOLDEN ERA OF ISLAM, perbezaan pendapat pasal ISLAM pun banyak (Ibnu Khaldun,Al-Ghazali,etc)People like RPK,HARIS Ibrahim etc..dont u think at that time people like this didnt exist?How the Islamic Scholars deal with them?Is it at that time these people are calling them as ENEMIES OF ISLAM?I Think Same story with Hamzah Fansuri, Ibnu arabi, Al-hallaj, Syeikh Siti Jenar (which AL-HALLAJ ARE BEING BURNED BY RULER)

it just a question that i rise from this topics.(is it im also considered as an ENEMY OF ISLAM if i also didnt agree with some opinion on SYARIAH LAW?)

ki aging pengging

Serious Shepherd said...

Silly question to all anti-syariah people: is there any cases like Lai Ying Xin (赖映兴) in Saudi Arabia, Iran or Pakistan, and if so, were the perpetrators arrested or kept at large while arresting the bloggers.

Tulang Besi said...

boy from dungun said...
Dear Tulang Besi,
I am truly amazed at what you have written! You are so naive, narrow minded and on the way to becoming a religious bigot, if you continue this way.

Saudi Arabia, Pakistan & Iran are examples of basket case countries, my friend. Make no mistake about that! No matter what indicators you used to measure them, social, economic or political, these are but examples of three failed states, as what your respondents here are trying to put across to you in a polite way!

REPLY: Ok let me put it in a more simpler way so that u can better understand.

Can u quote me ONE reason why the implementation of Shariah in Pakistan, Saudi Arabia and Iran is a "bad example".

You are giving me nothing to work with. Just hot air and empty rhetoric.

One thing sure about pakistan, the only part of their justice system that can still deliver to the people is their Shariah justice system.

THe other systems are in the hands of secularists, which explains their abject failure.

I pity you for resorting to empty rhetorics and unsubstantiated accusations.

It is that bad already, boy from Dungun?

Tulang Besi said...

anon says:

"Wake up lah. People who need specific examples on the differences in religious interpretation and who like to quote other people's articles to reinforce their views lack any intellectual honesty. "

REPLY: So if it is that obvious what's stopping you from quoting ONE example?

Is that too much to ask?

Anonymous said...

Here is something for the Serious Shepherd and others, a case to remind us about the extremes of shariah when power is held in the wrong hands.

.....clip.....

Friday, 15 March, 2002, 12:19 GMT
Saudi police 'stopped' fire rescue

Saudi Arabia's religious police stopped schoolgirls from leaving a blazing building because they were not wearing correct Islamic dress, according to Saudi newspapers...

One witness said he saw three policemen "beating young girls to prevent them from leaving the school because they were not wearing the abaya"...

The Saudi Gazette quoted witnesses as saying that the police - known as the Commission for the Promotion of Virtue and Prevention of Vice - had stopped men who tried to help the girls and warned "it is a sinful to approach them"...

Serious Shepherd said...

Anonymous 3:32 PM said:

Here is something for the Serious Shepherd and others, a case to remind us about the extremes of shariah when power is held in the wrong hands.

___________________________

Did similar events no longer occur or keeps on happening like the killing of innocent civilians in Afghanistan by those who spread democracy by air power?

The mutaween police learnt their mistakes, that's why it happened way back in 2002 and not last week or last year.

Even our British Common Law is already held in the wrong hands. Should we immediately abolish our Common Law because of some oppressive laws like ISA or because some people were wrongly imprisoned under this law?

Anonymous said...

Then it is okay to bomb Afghani civilians or use ISA against your enemies as long as you learn from your mistakes.

You asked for an example. You got one. 2002 is not that long ago.

Anonymous said...

so repeat after me serious shepherd...

shariah, like any political or legal system, in the hands of the wrong people can be dangerous.

Tulang Besi said...

Friday, 15 March, 2002, 12:19 GMT
Saudi police 'stopped' fire rescue

Saudi Arabia's religious police stopped schoolgirls from leaving a blazing building because they were not wearing correct Islamic dress, according to Saudi newspapers...

One witness said he saw three policemen "beating young girls to prevent them from leaving the school because they were not wearing the abaya"...

The Saudi Gazette quoted witnesses as saying that the police - known as the Commission for the Promotion of Virtue and Prevention of Vice - had stopped men who tried to help the girls and warned "it is a sinful to approach them"...

REPLY: I doubt that this story is true or even accurate.

As long as i am here is SAudi Arabia, there has been many fires involving men and women and nothing like this have been reported.

And it's such a nonsense and illogical report to start off with.

boy from dungun said...

Tulang Besi,
I am sorry Tulang Besi but you have been drugged by your religious obsession. It has make you so irrational and so illogical. You are bent on arguing and cant see the many sides of a dice. So it makes your blog boring and digressing instead of refeshing and progressing. So I am going to leave you and will not visit you again. Good luck with your faddish!

Anonymous said...

it really happened and was a tragedy. dont add to the tragedy by playing ignorant and your eyes are closed (happy at others expenses).

you wanted an example. you got one. not vague one.

read more about the tragedy here

.....clip....

Arab News (Jeddah) cited a report prepared by Mecca's Civil Defense Department about the rescue effort at the school. The report noted that mutawwa'in were at the school's main gate and, "intentionally obstructed the efforts to evacuate the girls. This resulted in the increased number of casualties." The religious police reportedly tried to block the entry of Civil Defense officers into the building. "We told them that the situation was dangerous and it was not the time to discuss religious issues, but they refused and started shouting at us," Arab News quoted Civil Defense officers as saying.

"Whenever the girls got out through the main gate, these people forced them to return via another. Instead of extending a helping hand for the rescue work, they were using their hands to beat us," Civil Defense officers were quoted as saying. The officers also said they saw three people beating girls who had evacuated the school without proper dress. A Saudi journalist told Human Rights Watch that the mutawwa'in at the scene also turned away parents and other residents who came to assist.

Anonymous said...

I agree with Boy from Dungun. This guy Tulang Besi is just one lone ignorant person with a blog. And you notice that he replies using all different names so that it looks like others agree with him but they all write the same way - i wonder why?
This blog is totally useless. There are better discussions elsewhere.

Jem Hall said...

LOL dont let the door kick you on your way out. Nobody insisted for your stay nor we enjoy generalised, unintelligent discussion around here. Probably the only thing you (people who are leaving) are capable of is using different words to elaborate the same rhetoric.

bye bye

Anonymous said...

right on jem hall......who cares f what they say is right or correc or got fax.....they should say it smewhere else....we got r own thing here....like or leave it......they can shove the educatedness...learning nvr gave no 1 nuthing....we use better than brains...me too lol

Serious Shepherd said...

Anonymous 8:43 PM said:
"Then it is okay to bomb Afghani civilians or use ISA against your enemies as long as you learn from your mistakes."

The difference is that the US did not learn from their mistakes and keeps doing it, whether in 2002, last year, 2 months ago or last month.

Tulang Besi said...

Dear Boy for Dungun,

You're a typical liberal. When you're cornered you start hurling insults and empty and stupid accusations against your opponents.

If you have nothing good to say, I suggest you keep quiet.

What i ask is simple and direct. If you can't understand that, please go back to school and relearn English. Cause it's what you need.

Tulang Besi said...

dear anon.

It seems that the report of the actions of the muttawa is deeply exagerated especially when the same news doesn't report the number of casualties at all,.

This piece of liberal newspaper has always been enemy to the religous institution of the country, and thus, they have zero credibility when reporting the news.

I've checked with my sources here in Saudi Arabia and they say that the entire story is exagerated. Deeply exagerated.

It's also funny that the Human Right's watch report, while mentioning the existance of casualties, do not mention the number of casualties, per say.

In truth, whatever casualties did not occur because of the muttawa's action.

It was due to the fire and lateness in evacuation.

The Muttawa was there just to ensure that the girls evacuated was provided proper cover for their bodies in addition to providing assitance to the rescue effort.

It's like i said, the report is deeply exagerated especially coming from an anti religous site like Human Right's Watch.

Tulang Besi said...

dear anon.

You say u agree with boy from Dungun?

You mean to say you agree that Boy from DUngun couldn't answer a simple qustion like:

"Show me one proof that implementation of shariah in the three countries have failed?"

Is that what you have agreed to?

Anonymous said...

if u read the two links it states clearly from eyewitness accounts that the muttawwa'in prevented the rescue. These reports also state clearly that 14-15 girls died in the fire. hang tak reti baca ka?

Why are you defending the indefensible?

You are obviously lying about your 'sources'. you make this shit up just like you make up all kinds of stuff.

you have no qualifications to discuss religious matters. please stop now and bertaubat.

and its 'per se' not 'per say' - bodoh!

Jem Hall said...

anon,

you read one news and believed all the crap they feed you.

and now you're accusing TB of fabricating stories, just because he offered an alternative side of the stories.

since when the common media become your indisputable source? A news is only as good as the person who reports it. I'm sure you acknowledge that as much as TB does, but for the sake of argument, you wanted to believe everything the news said. What a pity.

Anonymous said...

then why believe tb? he just pulls ideas out of his butt. at least these stories have multiple source and references, a lot more than tb offers. this was a widely reported event that led to govt investigation in saudi arabia. but tb can keep pulling these things out of his butt because you will be waiting right there.

you must be happy those girls died becaues you are such a denier. u even deny that you are just tb writing under different name. HA HA HA HA

Anonymous said...

to all muslims who do not believe in syariah law, as yourself who is YOUR GOD? I REPEAT, ASK YOURSELF WHO IS YOUR GOD? This law is not prescribed by HUMAN, is a perfect law from the ALMIGHTY! If you think there are flaws in syariah, GO AND DEBATE WITH ALLAH SWT. TB, this is jihad.

Jem Hall said...

dear anon September 26, 2008 12:52 AM , September 26, 2008 8:53 PM

thought you gonna leave? the door is wide open and what's keeping you here? trying to have the last word? i see...

and now you're accusing me of being TB in disguise? that's gotta be the lamest last word i've heard in quite some time. LOL

one last note for you my dear time-waster, I never did say i was happy the girls died, or agreeing to any bad consequences happened as result of misuse/misconduct of the Shariah laws.

So keep on laughing, because everyone here knows that the only person being laughed at is you, you inbred cunt. bye bye

Tulang Besi said...

Anonymous said...

if u read the two links it states clearly from eyewitness accounts that the muttawwa'in prevented the rescue. These reports also state clearly that 14-15 girls died in the fire. hang tak reti baca ka?

Why are you defending the indefensible?

REPLY:Actually i read the link on the Human Rights links.

And the link doesn't state the number of casualties.

Also, even if there were, there's no proof linking the actions of the muttawa with the casualties.

The Human Rights report tried to put the blame squarely on the Muttawa.

But what i've heard on the count that i live here in Saudi is that the Muttawa was busy trying to get the escapng girls covered up.

They never asked the girls to go back into the burning building.

Anonymous said...

In saudi arabia, their citizens are mainly local saudis.

Other ethnic are not given citizenship. Their residency are thru sponsors and they have NO SAY at all expressing their rights or opinions etc.

They have to accept what has been set as the rule.

So that's OK coz the saudis set the rule. No one else can say otherwise or challenge.

So in a multi racial country it is not as the path of saudi, or any of the countries with Islamic hegemony.

So how can such rule as the Saudis can be implement here in Malaysia.

Can the non-muslim accept?
If they do not agree, is fair in Islam to force such governance against them.?

What we have here is a compromise. Muslim still have their option on Syariah.

Life is always full of compromise.

Anonymous said...

Off topic:

Now what do you have to say about those Perak PKR's charged with corruption finally pecah tembelang when they actually admit accepting the sex "sedakah"?

IPOH, Sept 26 (Bernama) — Perak Parti Keadilan Raykat deputy chairman Zulkifli Ibrahim said the statement by a member describing sexual favours as alms was a slip of the tongue and for want of a better word.

“The mistake was in the wrong use of word. It was not meant to suggest that sex is a form of alms. That is all I can say,” he told reporters here
today.

Perak Tengah District Council member Zul Hassan yeterday
said the Anti-Corruption Agency (ACA) had trapped him into having sex with a woman from China.

Another PKR member, Fairul Azrim Ismail also made a similar
admission and claimed he was also trapped by the ACA.

Zulkifli urged the Perak Islamic Department to investigate the
reports lodged by Zul and Fairul on Sept 23 under Section 29 of the Perak Syariah Crime Enactment 1992.

Under the section, those found organising, coaxing or encouraging vice
was committing an offence.

Meanwhile, Perak Mufti Datuk Seri Harussani Zakaria said Zul’s
statement showed his ignorance of Islamic law and that it was a stupid act of self defence.

Fairul had been detained by ACA in connection with a corruption charge
and accepting sexual favour in the Seri Iskandar project but was released on Aug 21.

Zul and Perak Development Corporation technician Ruslan Sahat,
State Executive Councillors from PKR, Rtd Capt Mohd Osman Mohd Jailu and Jamaluddin Mohd Radzi and PKR former Bota state assemblyman Rtd Capt Usaili Alias, are facing 16 counts of corruption.

The case had been fixed for hearing in the Sessions Court on Feb
11 next year.

Anonymous said...

A response to off topic:
"Zulkifli urged the Perak Islamic Department to investigate the
reports lodged by Zul and Fairul on Sept 23 under Section 29 of the Perak Syariah Crime Enactment 1992.

Under the section, those found organising, coaxing or encouraging vice
was committing an offence."

So who is 'organizing, coaxing or encouraging vice' in this case? Isn't it obvious?

Anonymous said...

We will finally know the truth after our death! Keep on searching the truth , before it's too late for you.

Surah Al-Maidah (The Table Spread with Food)/ Chapter 5

50. Do they then seek the judgement of (the Days of) Ignorance? And who is better in judgement than Allâh for a people who have firm Faith.

Top

Surah Al-An'am (The Cattle)/ Chapter 6

57. Say (O Muhammad S.A.W): "I am on clear proof from my Lord (Islâmic Monotheism), but you deny (the truth that has come to me from Allâh). I have not gotten what you are asking for impatiently (the torment). The decision is only for Allâh, He declares the truth, and He is the Best of judges."

45. And Nûh (Noah) called upon his Lord and said, "O my Lord! Verily, my son is of my family! And certainly, Your Promise is true, and You are the Most Just of the judges."

46. He said: "O Nûh (Noah)!

Surely, he is not of your family; verily, his work is unrighteous, so ask not of Me that of which you have no knowledge! I admonish you, lest you be one of the ignorants."

47. Nûh (Noah) said: "O my Lord! I seek refuge with You from asking You that of which I have no knowledge. And unless You forgive me and have Mercy on me, I would indeed be one of the losers."

Surah Az-Zumar (The Groups)/ Chapter 39

69. And the earth will shine with the light of its Lord (Allâh, when He will come to judge among men) and the Book will be placed (open) and the Prophets and the witnesses will be brought forward, and it will be judged between them with truth, and they will not be wronged.

70. And each person will be paid in full of what he did; and He is Best Aware of what they do.

71. And those who disbelieved will be driven to Hell in groups, till, when they reach it, the gates thereof will be opened (suddenly like a prison at the arrival of the prisoners). And its keepers will say, "Did not the Messengers come to you from yourselves, reciting to you the Verses of your Lord, and warning you of the Meeting of this Day of yours?" They will say: "Yes, but the Word of torment has been justified against the disbelievers!"

72. It will be said (to them): "Enter you the gates of Hell, to abide therein. And (indeed) what an evil abode of the arrogant!"

73. And those who kept their duty to their Lord will be led to Paradise in groups, till, when they reach it, and its gates will be opened (before their arrival for their reception) and its keepers will say: Salâmun 'Alaikum (peace be upon you)! You have done well, so enter here to abide therein."

74. And they will say: "All the praises and thanks be to Allâh Who has fulfilled His Promise to us and has made us inherit (this) land. We can dwell in Paradise where we will; how excellent a reward for the (pious good) workers!"

75. And you will see the angels surrounding the Throne (of Allâh) from all round, glorifying the praises of their Lord (Allâh). And they (all the creatures) will be judged with truth, and it will be said. All the praises and thanks be to Allâh, the Lord of the 'Alamîn (mankind, jinns and all that exists)."

Top

Surah Al-Qalam (The Pen)/ Chapter 68

36. What is the matter with you? How judge you?

37. Or have you a Book through which you learn.

38. That you shall have all that you choose?

39. Or you have oaths from Us, reaching to the Day of Resurrection that yours will be what you judge.

Top

Surah At-Tin (The Fig) / Chapter 95

8. Is not Allâh the Best of judges?

Top

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