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Wednesday, November 12, 2008

Ivy Josiah and Friends Advocating Gender Confused Soceity?

I read a report a local newspaper where Ivy Josiah expressed her utmost dissatisfaction with the recent “fatwa” issued by the National Fatwa Council (NFC) on the issue of “pengkik”. “Pengkik” can simply be defined as the opposite of “transvestites”. In other words, girls/women who acts and adopts the demeanor of boys/men.


Ivy thinks that such fatwa makes Malaysia a laughing stock of the international community. I beg to differ seeing that the laugh is on those advocating gender confused society such as Ivy Josiah and her friends.

The National Fatwa Council has hit the nail right on the head when they view this phenomenon in our society as a problem. The “pengkik” phenomenon is a disturbing signal in our society where gender confused values have begun to be compromised by our society. If no action is taken, only God knows how this phenomenon will spread and mutate in the future. If any, Malaysians should thank the National Fatwa Council for taking bold move to stem immoral and unhealthy trends in our society.

A gender confused society is a society that is sick. It will lead to the destruction of the family institution and the disintegration of the society as a whole. A family cannot function properly if the roles of mothers and fathers are not observed properly. A father has his role in a family and so does a mother. In a gender confused society, both roles of fathers and mothers will be confused as well, thus leading to the destruction of the family institution in a society.

It’s no wonder that Western societies are beginning to show signs of strains when liberalism of morality was adopted by them. Problems such as high divorce rates, single motherhood, teenage pregnancies, homosexuality and many more are so common among them that it is now accepted as a trend. The old maxim “if u can’t fight them, join them” comes into mind.

Extension of Support for Homosexuality

It is an open secret that groups represented by Ivy Josiah openly supports homosexuality. The “pengkik” phenomenon is at par with the rise of homosexuality culture in our society. When Nationl Fatwa Council decided to act against “pengkik” they are actually taking steps towards stemming rise in homosexuality in our society.

Homosexuality is a mental disorder and as such it can be cured. There are testimonies by so many former gays and lesbians towards their rehabilitation. What has been discovered is the fact that rise in homosexuality is very strongly connected to the rise in rate of divorce and family disintegration. If any, to stem the tide, the rate of divorces must be lowered. A child having both their mothers and fathers will grow up to become healthy and normal individuals and not adopt homosexuality in their lives.

Masking Immorality with Women’s Rights

We have seen so many examples how Women’s Rights movement is always at the forefront when defending immoral and irreligious values and practices. It is true in the West and it is true here in Malaysia.

It seems Women’s Right is convenient tool to be used in order to undermine religion and decency. Many-a-time, it is also used as a tool to defend revolting and nauseating practices such as adultery, promiscuousness, homosexuality and, yes, “pengkik”.

In truth, that’s what Women’s Right is all about: a. To undermine the family institution in a society, b. To promote sick and negative values in a society, c. To promote social reengineering agenda in a certain society.

The betterment of women is just a sideline to the Women’s Right movement. In truth, women are better off when they have a healthy and happy family to take care of them. Of course there are irresponsible husbands, but just because 20% of husbands are irresponsible, the other 80% should not be punished.

I always say that if we want to follow a Women Right’s leader, she should be married and have actually raised children. Only a mother whom had raised sons and daughters knows what’s good for the society. They are more realistic and in tune with nature. Listening to unmarried and childless leaders may be good, but it’s a big risk to take.

I for one have been blessed with twin daughters and I would not want my daughters to grow up and become “pengkik”. I want them to be a well balanced woman and mother. Therefore, I shall make sure that my twin daughters do not grow up and get their mind poisoned by the likes of Ivy Josiah and friends.

Tulang Besi

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112 comments:

zorro tua said...

Bravo, well thought and said. I've seen the similar problem raised here in the UK when the church of England was forced to accept the very existence of gay community because of sheer pressure from the community. Simple question 1st: who in the first place say that it is right to be gay? Gay people? Community? Gordon Brown?

In their mind they are just voicing their rights and so on. So let say one day they decide that it is 'right' for them to marry a goat because they are in love, gay couple want to have their own child (either through IVF or adoption), etc2. Just imagine what that child or in fact that goat have to go though??

Then where is the limit? Someone has to stand up to these utterly confused group of people and give them a BIG slap!

Die Trennung said...

They say it is their right to "have fun" but people money being used to pay HIV/STD sufferers medical bills and stop the spread of HIV/STD also govt lose out money due to less productivity from ppl due STD/HIV gender confused problem, psycho distress etc

Anonymous said...

Tulang Besi,

Please name me one society which collapse as the direct result of pengkids, tranvestites, homos, lesbians etc.

They don't physically disturb you nor society. The only trauma they cause you is in your head.

I think you should be more worried about the violent mat rempits, the pak hajis who rape their own daughters, the hetrosexual sex acts involving school children etc.

You can't pretend such matters don't exist, but just search "3GP" with "Melayu" on Google and you'll see proof.

Wa'salaam

Tulang Besi said...

Dear anon,

Try western society. Aren't they heading towards destruction already.

Anonymous said...

Salam TB,

thanks for clearing the "polluted" air in Malaysian society....or rather Ivy's mind set....

Like zorro said, you can't keep on telling the world to endorse things that purely against the norms in the name of human rights!!!

IMHO, NFC has spoken based on the religious ground and I strongly believe that the fatwa upholds justice. Isn't justice that WOA is fighting for?

Come on la Ivy, be fair to the society or at least to your "good" self.

Anonymous said...

leave ivy out of this. what did she do?

i cannot believe you people are talking about HIV and STI. this really shows that you people are ignorant. as a persun who works on issues regarding HIV/AIDS, i am really disturbed by this comment.
a. global statistics show that HIV is transmitted by heterosexuals
b. if you look at the statistics again percentage and the number of PLHIV whom are lesbian, gay, bisexuals or transgender is fairly small even in Malaysia
c. its what you do and not who you are. just because you gay that doesnt mean that you will get HIV but if you engage in risky behaviours then yes.

understand basic concept people! this is stigma and discrimination!

and stop calling them sufferers. its PLHIV. people living with HIV.

BareSheen said...

Tulang Besi,

Please stop making sweeping statements and demonising such minority.

Please back your statements by facts or scientific research.

Name me a single society that self-destructed because they chose to honour the humanity of gays, lesbians and transgender?

Please do your homework.

Have you even taken the trouble to talk to any of them to find out what goes on in their world? To understand first?

Narrow minded people like you and Zorro Tua with perverse logic is a curse to society.

Anonymous said...

Problems are not caused by 'pengkids, tranvestites, homos, lesbians etc'. they are caused by ignorant people who make problems out of something because they cannot accept it and treat people who are different from themselves, badly.

The way you discriminate towards others, is the same way someone else will discriminate towards you - be it your race or religion, how you look etc.. for some people it is easier to understand, but for some others, somehow their ignorance knows no bounds.

All the arguments here against pengkids, gay people, etc are trully shallow, outdated, lame, and falsified according to science and also the interpretation of religion of that which promotes compassion and love, and not hatred and ignorance; this kind of views is a shameful display of intellect, and quality of human being. One only needs to do a little research oneself for some wisdom here. Ignorance has a lot to do with laziness.

Who are the ones confused here? I suggest if you have an issue, or you want to 'stand up against something', do some proper research first before you 'buat malu sendiri'. In the meantime, look at yourself really hard in the mirror and ask yourself if you truly find any compassion in what you stand for.

Anonymous said...

Not all minority need to be defended, if they are wrong then we say they are wrong. Nothing wrong with that, everyone make mistakes. The problem is, the society especially in the west wanted to be the hero, the voice of the minority, the one who stands up for the weak, etc2. If only we have the guts to say to these people that what they are doing is wrong and you need help. But no, we choose the more 'glamorous route'!!

Everyone is talking about the right of these minority, what about the right of the majority that dont what their sons nor daughters to be like them? Human right my hairy @$$! Name me a single parent who wants their child to grow up to be gay or homo??

I honestly dont mind whatever they decide they want to do with their live. But you cant force others in thinking that it is right to be gay or homo. You cant ask the majlis fatwa or the church or the tokong or whatever to accept what you like? If you decide to harm yourself in whatever way its fine by me, but dont expect everyone to condone such act!!

Anonymous said...

Morality. Decency. Family Institution.

Are you seriously bringing back those good old days? If that's so are you advocating women being in the kitchen and men going to work without having time for the children?

Are you picking and choosing what you can accept from the changing gender roles?

Die trennung, if you look closely in Malaysian statistics, you'd find the STD/HIV patients are mostly straight fellas. Don't point the blame at the gay men.

Paul

Anonymous said...

Tulang besi, you say that u've tavelled a lot. Well based on ur irrational raving, i say... travel more, observe even more, and ONLY then, start ranting. your statistics of cheating men, divorce rates and teenage pregnancies are skewed, indicative of your lack of knowledge. Please do your research before shooting your mouth off.

Chicken Feet aka KaKiaYam said...

opps, i wonder how would tulang besi respond from fact put forward by many commenters that the majority of the HIV sufferers are straight fella or drug addict...

while i do agree to a certain extent to what tulang besi said, i find the article address the issue of pengkid in a very superficial manner. The cause of pengkid in our society are blamed on children raised in a not so balance or happy family. And the effect of it is that it will result in more unhappy family.

Is it that simple?

"..It will lead to the destruction of the family institution and the disintegration of the society as a whole. A family cannot function properly if the roles of mothers and fathers are not observed properly...In a gender confused society, both roles of fathers and mothers will be confused as well, thus leading to the destruction of the family institution in a society."

Wow, how would the roles of parents be related in any way to pengkid? Who are you trying to confuse?

"..A child having both their mothers and fathers will grow up to become healthy and normal individuals and not adopt homosexuality in their lives...."

While i don't support, much less encourage homosexuality, i find that the above statements to be absurd.

As usual, this article of yours attempt to justify the actions of the National Fatwa (knowing well they have lost almost all credibility) and at the same time demonise the relevant NGO.

Maybe i expect too much from you.

Tulang Besi said...

Dear Barasheen,

I think u need to be up to speed on he scientific thingy.

It's a known fact now that gays can transform themselves back into being normal.

How can homosexuals be a minority when they can change?

Apart from Micheal Jackson, when was the last time you saw a Black man turning into a White man?

Tulang Besi said...

Dear Chicken Feet,

When families were intact and divorce were rare, we don't find any problems like Pengkid or Homosexuality.

The same applies to America too.

Tulang Besi said...

But then again, who would want to think about ensuring that their children are brought up properly.

They are more concerned about ensuring major corporations making big bucks for their fat and demented executives, which is a bigger priority.

And, they need to ensure that all women should come out to work because that way the work force will be doubled and salaries can therefore be compromised.

You know, the old supply and demand thingy.

No wonder the West, Japan, Korea, Taiwan etc are facing severe depopulation problems.

In 20 years time, the majority popuplation will be the Chicanos in America because the Whites just killed themselves out.

Anonymous said...

Why there is no fatwa against ISA tulang besi..

Anonymous said...

Hello!!!!!!!!!!!! Rasanya manusia kat sini semua tak faham kot, cuma tau nak condemn aje! BHTW the fatwas all fatwas are ONLY i repeat ONLY apply to the MUSLIMS only, yang lain lain nak sibuk kenapa? As for other religion go ahead and be pengkid homo or gay! Dip[ersilakan. Inbi lah kalau orang comment tak pakai otak. Otak letak kat mana huh??????????????

Bukit Chandan said...

The NFC is right. TB is also right.

With an open mind, we would like to say the following:

1. Nobody can force one's opinions onto others. This is a free World. However, among Muslims this is an exception. In fact, we can also prevent what Islam forbids so that it will not be rampant and widespread in society.

2. Islam has been revealed to basically protect the mind, soul, offspring and property. So, in this gay, lesbian, transvestites and tomboys case, Islam forbids all these perverted acts. Islam spells out specifically how a Muslim should act and behave in a family, society and nation.

3. We would like to narrate a true case that had happened in a college up North. One female student, after being dumped and frustrated with her boyfriend was picked up and duped by a tomboy. This female student confessed that they did all the sexual acts of a married couple without any bounds. Can you just imagine what our society would be like if this phenomenon is not curbed?

Best Regards.........

Anonymous said...

TB,

don't insult us the single parents. You and the likes of you can't do what we strive to do. I am a single parent and have a successful child who excels very well. A home can have just one parent but that one parent has to have the head screwed on properly. Our Msian society has nothing good to say about single parenthood except blaming everything that goes wrong to the single parents.
Most 2 parent home is screwed but no one sees that.whatever a useless Mum or Dad in a 2 parent family home does is considered ok just because the home has 2 idiots leading the family. series of excuses can be make.
just leave us out,since nothing good can be said about us as single parents.not all of us are druggies and prostitutes.
My child today has a better,happier and meaningful life because of my choice to be a single parent and I am contended in life and blessed. I wonder how many of you ohhh so perfect 2 parent home can say that?????
sorry for the rantings but i am pissed with ppl blaming single paretns for the problems.look beyond that and dont suppress others.

Azrul Mohd Khalib said...

There are so many things wrong in this article that I really don't know where to begin.

It is remarkable than in our Malay Muslim society here in Malaysia that compassion and understanding are frequently absent in our actions and responses dealing on issues such as this one. Yet, we will always boast that we are the society renowned for its gentleness, politeness, courtesy,

As Muslims, we have every right to question a Council of mainly men who govern the lives of millions of Malaysian Muslims, appear to be unanswerable to no one, make decisions which appear to be uninformed and without consultation with those who might be affected by such fatwas

Frequently, my observation is that we are all too eager to drop the hammer on to someone's head, to pass judgement on what we perceive to be against the norm, and to punish those we feel have transgresed. This time, the issue is "pengkik"

Should every immoral and unhealthy trend be solved with a fatwa then? After which we put our hands together and say "problem solved!" Are we that simplistic? Rather than put forward our hands to help, we rather use a fatwa to deal with the problem. Tell me, TB, how are you going to enforce this ruling? Arrest and charge every women having short hair, wears trousers, looks mannish, acts like a man? How? Are you going to tell your daughters that they are forbidden to wear trousers, cut their hair or anything else related to manlike behaviour, like I don't know, play sports like football?

TB's has willy nilly linked divorces and family disintegration. He claims that the "rise in homosexuality is very strongly connected to the rise in rate of divorce and family disintegration" and that children with both parents won't 'adopt' homosexuality. Please provide evidence that this is so. And while you are at it, if you have solved the problem of homosexuality with a fatwa, how about divorces? Are you going to solve that too with a fatwa?

TB's attack on the issue of women's rights and his personal attack on Ivy Josiah is an embarrasment and reflect a limited and privileged understanding of women's rights and his views are in fact contrary to Islamic teachings. He claims that "Women’s Right is convenient tool to be used in order to undermine religion and decency. Many-a-time, it is also used as a tool to defend revolting and nauseating practices such as adultery, promiscuousness, homosexuality and, yes, “pengkik”" The teachings of Islam and the practices of the Prophet Muhammad clearly advocated the emancipation of women. In fact the rights of women are clearly recognised as being one critical to the advancement of our religion. He states that "In truth, that’s what Women’s Right is all about: a. To undermine the family institution in a society, b. To promote sick and negative values in a society, c. To promote social reengineering agenda in a certain society."" He also says later that "we want to follow a Women Right’s leader, she should be married and have actually raised children."

Let's call this for what this is. It has nothing to do with religion, it has nothing to divorces or families disintegrating. I believe that these views as articulated by TB are sexist, homophobic, discriminatory, patriachal and honestly, naive.

Enough said.

malayamuda said...

why not they impose Fatwa on drug addicts. Why noT JAIS go to old Debilitated buildings looking for people who abuse drugs and tengah stim kat sane ?

you mean to tell me lesbians and homosexuals are more dangerous than drug addicts who will resort to anything to get their fix for the day including murder ?

the truth is this religious fanatics are a group of confused people. they prefer to preach islam than to actually practise it.

they rather go after the gays and lesbians and couples in parks than to go after muslims drug abusers and others.

they are scared they will get hurt. they have a perverted sense of thinking.

wearing the serban, growing a gaotie, eating hala food, stealing non muslim dead bodies and preaching islam day in and out will not make you a good muslim.

PRACTISE WHAT U PREACH U MORONS

Tulang Besi said...

Azrul Mohd Khatib says:

"
As Muslims, we have every right to question a Council of mainly men who govern the lives of millions of Malaysian Muslims, appear to be unanswerable to no one, make decisions which appear to be uninformed and without consultation with those who might be affected by such fat"

REPLY: Actually the National Fatwa Council has always been open to opinions and comments and questions.

THey are not closed minded as many who has no idea how they operate would like us to think.

But on the issue of Pengkik, the NFC is spot on.

People like Ivy Josiah is simply trying to advance their social reengineering agenda. That's all.

Tulang Besi said...

Azrul Mohd Khatib says:

"Should every immoral and unhealthy trend be solved with a fatwa then? After which we put our hands together and say "problem solved!" Are we that simplistic?"

REPLY: Actually to solve a social problem like this requires more than just fatwa.

But, with a fatwa, it makes solving the problem much easier.

Anak Perelih said...

those who are oppose to the tomboy FATWA... do you really know what is a fatwa???? go and learn about it first before making comments which only makes you look like fools/idiots.....

malayamuda said...

anak perelih,

the religious authorities look like fools idiots in this case.

you cant discuss these issues in public and then ask people not to comment about them.

these idiots should discuss sensitive issues like this with the ummah behind closed doors probably in the masjid and surau.

when u openly say thingslike this, be prepared for comments from everyone, whites, blacks, muslims, non muslims...... EVERYONE

malayamuda said...

therefore i support ABIM's call that all religious issues be discussed behind closed doors henceforth before comin out in the open and make everyone awkard

Anonymous said...

Islam is a control freak religion, it controls the way people behave to the way people destress (yoga). Have a life people!

MILF said...

hey hey look what ive found. In california HIV/AIDS is called the "gay disease"

http://www.lifesitenews.com/ldn/2006/oct/06100404.html

"Activists for the homosexual lifestyle have, until this current development, strongly, and sometimes vehemently refused to admit that the disease is predominantly generated among homosexual men."

Self-denial, self-denial
tipu kiri tipu kanan tipu diri sendiri

Anonymous said...

Promoting homosexuality is incorrect. By nature man women practice family as a form of lineage for generations. In general of course.(please do not compare oneself to animal, we are not..just by thinking through this piece is already humane activity) To choose partner or sexual activity is one individuals right. Of course one is only responsible for oneself, but i find it rather selfish. We all live in families, and whether you like it or not, sexual orientation is not art to experimented. It promotes other experimentational sexual habits. Pls refer Freud.
It is ones choice, and human evolve in order to find what is truth. To some everything is gray because there is no black and white. Not all homosexual are HIV, yes true.. through education. But it creates unnecessary alienation, not because religion, but the nature of the sexuality promotes one gender agenda. Of course homosexuals unite because we can in-vitro everything, but in Islam, 'limits' is the test for hereafter. Lust is god's test to one man. So can you withstand lust, because that is the ultimate test for mankind.

Anonymous said...

Tulang Besi, please get your head together. Your "logic" is so simplistic and naive that it only reaffirms what ails Malaysian society today: the refusal to understand that there are things about the human race that need understanding, instead of irresponsibly making wild, sweeping statements such as you have made.

You have come out sounding like those other simplistic, naive and wholly illogical "thinkers" who think that all one has to do is to blame allthe ills of society on those they do not like, and somehow they have found what ails the human race.

You have grandly stated::A gender confused society is a society that is sick. It will lead to the destruction of the family institution and the disintegration of the society as a whole. A family cannot function properly if the roles of mothers and fathers are not observed properly. A father has his role in a family and so does a mother."

You say that as if there is no other cause to the destructionof the family unit. Where is your take on the thousands and thousands of men who have left their wives and children and who refuse to take responsibility for the committments they have made to them. It seems that we have far more families thathave been destroyed by irresponsible men than by some gender confused people.

Stop blaming the west for the problems that we Malaysians have brought on ourselves through our own blatant lack of honouring those things which should be honoured and kept sacred: the family unit for one.

SHAME ON YOU!!!
Are there things that

Joseph said...

The writer of this post is a frog under coconut shell. Are you saying that women can't do men's jobs such as mechanic, technicians, etc.? Are they supposed to act softly while doing these jobs? What guidelines do you use on a womanhood?

Don't be self-righteous and self-centered. This world belongs to all humanity.

non-conformis said...

I m rather disappointed with TB to come our with an mis-informed and misleading article like this.

1. Malaysia is a democratic country (is it not what u always advocate, TB?). freedom of speech is a right. U might not agree, but dun silent what u don't agree with.

2. homosexual = HIV? please provide research figures. blanket statement like this is as good as saying "boiling water in microwave is bad for health"

3. state clearly what do u oppose in Ivy's statement. again u are overcome with "jangan masuk campu hal2 islam" mentality, like so many muslims in our country. make conclusion without rational

4. Did the fatwa council define what is "pengkid"? what behaviour make u a pengkid? give us some figures here, roughly how many % of Malaysian women are behaving like that? how abt some statistics to support their stand - age group, areas, education level etc?
if they don;t have these, how do u think the blanket statement "becoming serious..." can hold water?

5. homosexuality or heterosexuality are not mental illness, regardless of what some religion scholars might want u to believe. do more research on this.
too long to elaborate here.

6. with regards to single parent, broken family etc, others on this forum have already explained it quite lengthly. btw, what has this to do with Ivy anyway? if i m not wrong, her organisation is actually doing work to help and assist single mothers. whats the problem with that?

finally, please don't use "ini hal islam, jangan masuk campur".
even the fatwa may not apply to non-muslims, it affects their friends and family. every public statements can be commented in a democratic country.

cheers

Anonymous said...

Dear Joseph.
Humanity is general.
Logic is man's limit.
I am sad that all the logic in the world right now is destruction,
devastation, pollution and people like you sitting your ass and let world evolve by man's hand.
We are all becoming selfish beings.
sadly, yes.

Anonymous said...

Dear Non conformis,
people like you will wait for trouble to come, logic to solve, and by the end of the day, its all gone.
So please, prevention is better than cure.

Cheers !

non-conformis said...

BTW, why isn't there any fatwa on the follwoing:
"Polis dilarang korup"
"pegawai kerajaan dilarang berfoya-foya dengan GRO di kelab malam"
"melarang pakaian gaya mat rempit, membawa motor gaya mat rempit"
"melarang penjara tanpa bicara"

Maybe accoding to their researches, the above are not serious in Malaysia.

non-conformis said...

dear Anonymous,
u so brave. why not leave ur name?

"people like you will wait for trouble to come, logic to solve, and by the end of the day, its all gone.
So please, prevention is better than cure."

please elaborate more. i guess nobody understand what u mean.

Anonymous said...

for the first time i felt really disgusted reading TB blatant comment about pengkid, homesex without taking the effort to do justice on it.

I'm gay and a muslim too, did i ask to be gay? NO, did i try to change? YES. Did i have anyone to talk to during the phase? NO. Why? because its a taboo in our society to have a guy who likes guy. I decided to accept who i am fullstop. Did i commit destruction on any life on earth because of my decision?NO. What i did, i focus my energy on being positive in every facet of life, i earned my post grad and with that i managed to secure good career position that provides big and most important halal income, i did not steal, kill nor paying bribes to get where i am today. With my success today i managed to ensure that my ailing parents are well taken care off together with my retarded sister not forgetting contributing to my sisters/brothers/nephews/nieces who are less off than me and also contributing to society at large through zakat, etc u name it i've done my bit to contribute

TB, you have twin babies, let me tell you how they going to turn up oneday is not in your hand remember that...

Ana A said...

Dear Sir,
I believe Ivy Josiah is not advocating a ‘gender-confused society’, instead she, like I, aspire to educate and promote awareness of social diversity and various human conditions.

Gender variations exist and are legally acknowledged in advanced nations and religion including Islam.

Article on acknowledgment and legal aspects of gender variation here: http://wiki.susans.org/index.php/Legal_aspects_of_transsexualism

Specifically, Islamic scholars have long acknowledged at least two other gender variations: “Khunsa (intersexed - http://www.safraproject.org/sgi-genderidentity.htm)” and “Mukhannathuns (transgendered - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mukhannathun)”.

Further example of gender variation is contained in an interpretation this Quranic verse ehich offers a reference to sexual orientation and gender:

42:49 "To Allah belongs the dominion over the heavens and the earth. It creates what It wills. It prepares for whom It wills females, and It prepares for whom It wills males. 50 Or It marries together the males and the females, and It makes those whom It wills to be ineffectual. Indeed It is the Knowing, the Powerful."
Arabic: "Lillahi mulku us-samaawaati wal'ardhi. Yakhluqu ma yashaa'u. Yahabu liman yashaa'u inaathan wa yahabu liman yashaa'u adh-dhukura. Aw yuzawwijuhum dhukraanan wa inaathan; wa yaj'alu man yashaa'u 'aqeeman: innahu 'Aleemun Qadeerun."

Scholars have interpret “It marries together the males and females” as the third gender – intersexed or transgendered. Other scholars have interpreted “It makes those whom It wills to be ineffectual” to encompass barren men and women or individuals who have no desire for the opposite gender. Refer to http://www.well.com/user/aquarius/Qurannotes.htm.

But the crux of the discussion is the issuance of the fatwa against tomboys. Should anyone have the power to legally and socially define tomboy mannerism? If the council and the policing body have the right to persecute someone based on arbitrary definition of mannerism, what is to prevent them from turning every deep-tenored, pants-wearing, bald-headed women into criminals? Bottomline is attempting to criminalize individual mannerism leaves much room for abuse. Two possible abuses can stem from empowering the National Fatwa Council to monitor and control one’s behavior and possibly perpetuating Machiavellian biases towards women.

First of all, this fatwa implies that the council will be capable of defining masculine and feminine behavior. Are Malaysians not concerned that this fatwa is going to set the precedence allowing the council and its policy body the power to criminalize behavior and regulate individual mannerism according to their biases? Who is to prevent them from regulating how one speaks, how one sleeps or what color one’s car should be in the future? There is an interesting pattern of fatwa issuance lately - the 2005 fatwa against taking part in SMS contests (http://www.aliran.com/oldsite/monthly/2005a/2h.html), the 2007 fatwa against supernatural exhibitions (http://english.aljazeera.net/news/asia-pacific/2007/04/200852513106697452.html), the 2008 potential fatwa against yoga (http://thestar.com.my/news/story.asp?file=/2008/11/8/nation/2490781&sec=nation) to name a few. I am concerned that the Big Brother trend will be too prevalent in Malaysian society.

The other issue is the Machiavellian impact this fatwa can have. A simple example is that the National Fatwa Council could theoretically deem argumentative, aggressive and competitive behavior as masculine in nature (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aggression). Given the scenario of a wife arguing with the husband, or a women aggressively pursuing a promotion at work or a talented female student needing training resources, what is to prevent a deranged husband from reporting a wife for masculine behavior after a heated argument, old-boy networked males from denying female peers promotions or budget-short schools from prohibiting female students from competition or sporting events and using the fatwa to strengthen their cause? Hoping for a fair and just trial is just that - hope.

Another point to remember is that tomboy mannerism and sexual orientation is not mutually exclusive. Just as a woman who is masculine in appearance is not necessarily a lesbian, a feminine woman is not necessarily heterosexual. Mannerism may reflect one’s sexual orientation but it is not the only defining characteristic of one’s sexuality.
Attempting to prevent boyish mannerism in women to curb homosexuality is not a very efficient way to address the situation nor does it address the situation in any way.

Regarding women’s rights movement, there is a passage in history with a particularly relevant anecdote. It was in the 7th century in a particular society where women were treated like property and female infanticide was commonplace. Women were denied the right to a fair hearing, own property, inheritance and education until one of the most influential men in the past century instituted rights of property ownership, inheritance, education and divorce for women through the religion he was spreading with his followers. Arguably, many of the folks in that given society probably thought that he and his religion was trying to undermine the social structure, promote sick and negative values such as treating women as humans instead of property but this individual and his followers believed in the sanctity of their faith and religion pressed forward with their belief. Due to their actions, Islam was recognized as one of the principal institution that promoted progressive women’s right movement in the 7th century Arabia and the Prophet Muhammad remains Time Magazine's top 100 most influential man in the 20th century.

In conclusion, an unhealthy society is one that not only fails to acknowledge gender diversity but empowers a group of individuals to play the Big Brother role. It seems Malaysia is suffering from those symptoms.

Sincerely
Ana A
tiltedworld.org contributor

Anonymous said...

the way writer spells 'pengkik' and saying that homosexuality is a mental disorder i knew that he/she is talking somehow rubbish..but its okay to tell others don't is such an easy thing to do. I'd like to see what if he/she happen to have a gay child.

try to open up a medical book on homosexual. most of the opening line-homosexuality is NOT a mental disorder.

not all gay finding holes to **** and jump on others.

cheers

Anonymous said...

Dear *non conformis,
*giggle.

bravery is your measure.
stupidity is my measure.
first of all why the name 'non conformis'?
is it the immature rebellious attitude you harbour since young or
just for fun.

anyway, prevention is what religion offers. Man chooses. I don't have to be playing this Modus Operandi with you. Just like others I don't judge.

Just 2 cents.

Anonymous said...

Dear anonymous to my anonymousity,
You are confused. Also I see you wll defend your self in this. Please do.

Dear ana a,
you have no idea what you are talking about. Aqidah itu akar syariah. You quote western values yang lapuk Machevilian la, ape2 la.
Kampung la you ni. Belajar western culture sikit lepas tu nak relate local values. Aku ajar art history. Mula la nak berseloroh dalam BM. Moral ko pun jadi warna kelabu pasal semua pun boleh.

Anonymous said...

Dear 'non conformis',

Why don't you flip the Quran and Hadith and start learning than condemning about Fatwa.Don't wait people to educate you, be responsible and educate yourself.

Ko mesti darah panas orang muda kan?
Selalu gelojoh nak ajak gaduh. Aman damai kan best.

Kalau tak faham, aku faham kenapa kau tak faham.

non-conformis said...

Dear Anonymous (whoever u are),
Thanks for the offer.
the comments on this forum is enough to enable me to know what it takes to be a muslim in Malaysia.

I have been to enough countries and know enough people to understand what rationale and humanity are.

in fact u dun have to go far to get youself educated. just travel to Indonesia, u will know what i mean.

"Don't wait people to educate you, be responsible and educate yourself."
thats is a truth that applies to everyone, that include u sir.

G'day

Anonymous said...

Dear *non conformis,

Swallow ego can be tough. Ergo Sum.
Learning is never enough, and you have done the sinnest sin of all.
Accepting ignorance as your form of education.

Have an open mind. To judge people and labeling is your number one mistake. Jangan cakap pasal nak menang, rugi nanti diri sendiri.

As much as you are I am still learning. Btw, i'm sure you're qualified enough to discuss pertaining these issues.

Anonymous said...

Man man Man Man Man Man Man, you are the man speaking from a man point of his-story. can't you came up with something better than that? i was hoping that "man's" intelligents has evolve or (from a creation POV) has come to a higher realization.

but first i really wanna congratulate the author for drawing reasonable attention.
and you have clearly spark anger and praise and arguments or "reasoning" (to some extent will not work here)
obviously we are on different sides, and some 'man' are choosing one over the other...( in a paradigm of convoluting thoughts mainly created by insecure mainstream man; they are vulgar too, not to mention brutal, but i guess that's how our history are of - the fittest ideology prevail, even it may be "primitive" or "inferior" )

pardon my ignorance... for i am not religious enough to comprehend the fine workings of the all mighty creator... and as if you do... maybe the true creator was gay?

and zorro tua and those from the same camp, i am going to give you my current home address, 7 jln ss7/4, taman kelana jaya...PJ, Selangor
there is possibility that i am a confused being but i too have a feeling that confusion may be in essence of your ego - show me the light! and perhaps exchange slaps and see who dies first!

non-conformis said...

Dear Anonymous,
Not sure if i have been talking to the same person, anyway.
if you go through my comments, did i ever call anyone names or judge or make nasty comments?

I asked TB to provide facts and research figures to back up his statements. Is that not reasonable?

I also questioned the fatwa council (which are human) why they didn't issue fatwa on corruption, government abuse of power etc?
Is that not reasonable?

mungkin saudara perlu "open ur mind" dan lihat dari perspektif yg berlainan. "think out of box" dan saya menunggu saudara di luar kotak, ok?

salam

thilaga said...

please leave Ivy out of this. what did ever do to you? dont pretend as if you know her or what she has done. leave her out of this. if you wanna talk about those whom protested then talk about them, dont drag her in! she had nothin to do with this.

and you people clearly know next to nothing about HIV/AIDS or STI. as a persun who does HIV/AIDS work i am clearly stunned and pissed off by these ignorant comments. PEOPLE DONT GET HIV BECAUSE OF THEIR SEXUAL ORIENTATION. HIV DOESNT DISCRIMINATE. ITS WHAT YOU DO AND NOT WHO YOU ARE.

there are only three ways you can get HIV:
1. unprotected sex (no condoms)
2. sharing needles, syringes, or any injecting equipment
3. from mother to child

never have i said being gay is one criteria for you to get HIV. so please get your facts right!

you need to understand the history of it okay. yes, it was found in a few gay men in san francisco first but that doesnt mean that it is a gay thing. and that doesnt mean that it is an american thing as well. just because cancer was found in womyn first that doesnt mean that cancer belongs to womyn or just because SARS was found amongst heterosexuals that doesnt make it a heterosexual thing. seriously, you cannot keep using this kinda logic. you may think you sound smart but actually you dont know how ignorant you sound. especially to me, someone who does work on HIV/AIDS.

and please la, have some respect, no one is suffering. they are called PLHIV, PEOPLE LIVING WITH HIV not sufferers or whatever. have respect. and be PC. drug user okay, not drug addict.

and if you think that being gay is a mental disorder or whatever then does being an ignorant also count as a mental disorder?

you see, i dont wanna waste my time replying to people who are clearly ignorant and dont know what are they talking about. whatever that you have written there in the article and in the comment is clearly out of ignorance.

have you read anything about gay, lesbian, bisexuals, or transgender? anything at all. let alone something medical stuff. these are theories from the 70's. and they have revised this theory so why are you making so much of noise over a theory which pretty invalid?

and i think you people should know that sexual orientation is not a choice. you dont choose your sexual orientation just like how you dont choose the colour of your skin or eyes, sex, or whatever. you are born with it. please for the love of god, do some reading on this. you people need to realize that the world is not made out of only heterosexuals. theres room for everyone. why do have to discriminate? i dont see people who are gay, lesbian, bisexual, or transgender hating you or posting comments like how being straight is a mental disorder? why do you have to be so rude?

thilaga

mozart1973 said...

Again, the fatwa is for muslims ONLY. period!

But TB's reasoning are somewhat shallow.

Non-muslims, please take care of your own religion and refrain from commenting unless you understand the concept of fatwa, what is it for and WHO is it for. This has nothing to do with you. Fatwa is for muslims only. Go 69 for all we care but muslims must follow certain rules and that define a muslim's way of life. Call us funny or scary but funny or scary might not be wrong.

I don't Ivy who? should comment anythg about this unless she choose to start a war with muslims in Malaysia. Don't insult other people's believe or you will get burnt.

Ivy and Josiah - Christian i presume? Check with the bible if this act is permissible in Christian. Fight for Christian followers la hoi. They banned gays in so many other countries.

malayamuda said...

Calling another colleague BASTARD in parliament is Islamic and within the teachings of Islam ?

Sacking your Deputy and shaming him internationally and getting the IGP to bash him up is Islamic and within the teachings of Islam ?

You can be straight like your dad said...

wow...everyone want their piece of opinion on this gay thing!! it become a feast of opinions here...great i wanna start new site...to bash homosexual..and those so-called gay heroes will start commenting on their perverted sexual preference..(gay couldnt reproduce.PERIOD)

Anonymous said...

well,I think this is y it exists in this world. it's just like race,colors,standards..let's see how people cope with it.see hw smart they are to out each other.

People who is homophobic, of course not gay, they might have other bad elements as well which isn't highlighted by fatwa.bt by doing this you can't take the 'gayness' out of the gay people. do you want to kembalikan your own saudara ke jalan yang benar?betul-betul jujur??or you just want to fight on the issue?

I have to say that you are just plain bullies if you can't answer yes to that question. you can continue to lay ur sejadah n pray, all for your own good.

Homosexual does not beg you for your holy acceptance. Swear that some of them were half dead to find out that as early as 10yrs old that they are in this 'group', it feels like asking to change parents!! you have no idea hw hard it is.and some of them r trying,clear example-me.but how do i get support???all I know I wanna shut this blog and continue to be who i am after ds. I dun have to give a damn.

thnx for the concern.

Non-Muslim Transsexual Female, But One Who Is Affected By Muslim Fatwas. said...

I appeal to all LGBT advocates to stop arguing with TB. I believe his mind, and those who advocates his dogmatic views and their cause of discrimination is all made up.

So far their side has only offered one so called fact on lifesitenews.com, a disrespected Christian channel in the class of onenewsnow and worldnewsdaily, that spreads lies and myths in the class of this website.

We can offer all balanced neutral peer-previewed facts and science from how lesbians are the least able to contract HIV/AIDS to Johnson and Yarhouse's research on ex-gays that reveal the 11% "change" as ambiguous and complicated, but yet they would not listen.

We can rest easy that the truth is well and trully on our side. We know one day it shall be the undeniable absolute truth, so let them rest easy in the illusion that the world is still flat.

They will forever be unable to separate what is "orientation". They will see anal sex as something done by men = homosexual, even though heterosexuals do it too.

Even with increasing evidences of biological causes of homosexuality, and transsexuality (yes, not tranvestism, but still I think this writer would be unknowledgeable to know the difference), they would still view it as a choice.

They have succesfully insulted single mothers and fathers who raised great children, and cohesive family units who unfortunately have a child born with a homosexual orientation. They have degraded the lives of women who lost their husbands through divorce and death, only to be forewarned that their children would somehow "become" a homosexual.

Social decadence? Holland and Denmark have the least crime rates and social problems with their openness towards lesbians, gays and transsexuals. Destruction of society? It seems there is a problem with the world's overpopulation and only gays and lesbians seems compassionate enough to adopt HIV/AIDS children even though they have a choice do adopt healthy ones.

Procreation? They have slammed all those women or men who cannot perform enough to give birth, especially those with defected organs. They also rejected the entire community of the fourth sexual orientation, asexuals.

Thilaga and Ana A wrote a long post that was not questioned and barely read. And numerous requests for the anti-lesbian, gay, bisexual and transsexual community here to back up their nonsensical claims with reliable sources is met with a deafening no to facts and just simply wrong because they think it is wrong.

I believe even this post would not be read. It is useless to argue with people whose only wish is to dominate and to control, especially imposing themselves on women. We asked to be left in peace and equality, they want to impose fatwas and regulations, to the point of wanting to blame us till kingdom come for everything. SO what is the point of talking to people like that? No point. Ignorance is bliss. Let them keep living in a box and refuse to look out. This way we advance in life and love; they regress to their limited mind state and education.

non-conformis said...

Mozart1973,
I knew someone will come out with this and you were the first bravo.
"jangan campu tangan hal Islam"
"nothing to do with non-muslim"

u really think so?

In a democratic country, any public statement is subjected to public opinion, regardless of who the target is.
When it concerns our family, friends, neighbours, our fellow Malaysians and our fellow human being, everyone has the right to voice their opinions, be it right or wrong. It is that simple.

do you know this famous poem:
"In Germany, they came first for the Communists, And I didn’t speak up because I wasn’t a Communist;
And then they came for the trade unionists, And I didn’t speak up because I wasn’t a trade unionist;
And then they came for the Jews, And I didn’t speak up because I wasn’t a Jew;
And then . . . they came for me . . . And by that time there was no one left to speak up."

bagaimanapun, yg ditegur bukannya agama Islam, tetapi kenyataan manusia biasa dalam majlis fatwa.
Itu pun dikira "hina Islam"?
perbuatan Muslim tidak boleh dipersoalkan kah?

Saudara yg dihormati, kebenaran itu tidak takut disoal. malah semakin dibahas, semakin tersinar kebenaran itu.

Soal Mandela, dia akan senyum. soal Gadhi, dia akan senyum.
Soal Mugabe, kamu mungkin hilang keesokan hari.
Soal President Kim, langsung masuk penjara.
Soal Taliban, mungkin ditembak terus.

point for ponder.

mozart1973 said...

malayamuda, no one condone the 'bastard' act. No one condone stealing. So don't simply put some comparison yang x sesuai.

In islam, we just don't condone gay act. Is that so hard to understand? As a muslim, you can choose if u wanna do it or not, the end of the day, its between you and God. If you don't want to abide to the fatwa, its your choice. As for non-muslim, this fatwa is NOT imposed on you.

I ain't gonna elaborate on the concept of fatwa, you should ask someone like a guru agama to explain. Again, fatwa is there for a reason and if u can't accept the reason, get someone that can explain why. If you still can't understand, do a soul searching.

There are limit to certain things unless you don't believe in anythg. Thats why the world has laws, rules, values, norms, acts etc.

malayamuda said...

mozart 1973,

you sure you not retarded?

it's not only we muslims who dont condone gay acts.

u mean other civilisations condone it ?

no one wants to be gay, they are born gays no matter how hard they try to change !

its people like you who preach shit and pretend to know so much abt islam who give islam a bad name and to be laughed at

mozart1973 said...

non-conformis(t),

i have to state the obvious. Muslims are wayyyy too soft these days just not to hurt other peoples feelings.

Religion is a personal matter la bro. For a start do you even understand what is a fatwa? Do you know why is it created in ISLAM, for muslim and how is it implemented?

Rules are still rules. Its just either you wanna follow or refuse to follow.

Dude, sometimes you have to set a limit where to poke.

mozart1973 said...

malayamuda, mulut macam cibai. Now you are insulting 'mentally challenged' individuals? La, kata fighting for rights. Gay = ok. Retard= embarasment?

People like you who should be ashamed of yourself. Get a life la. Go steal something. It might be right in your religion. No point of arguing nicely with someone who can open up (not using 'accept')to reasons.

Damn you are stupid.

malayamuda said...

Mozart 1973,

i though u would say

Jangan Cabar Saya, Saya akan lari Amok, kerana saya generasi DEB Tongkat Ali

u proved me wrong. thanks bro. u will go to heaven

mozart1973 said...

malayamuda,

i don't believe in violent. I don't act like im hollier than thou but i believe there are rules and rules are made for a reason.

I have gay friends and i treat them like i treat my other friends. No question ask. I don't discriminate. Its their choice to be gay and i don't say i agree with them but i won't judge them as only god can judge.

Don't assume just because fatwa says its illegal then people will go rampage and go gay-bashing. Apa la.

non-conformis said...

Mozart1973,
look who is offending everyone now?
who is name calling now?

my opinion is simple, in a discussion, there will always be at least 2 sides. if you can't take different opinions, either counter them with facts dan data, or leave.

so, i guess i poked the soft spot of u and u were warning me u will get tough? is that how u answer questions and behave in discussions?

what i dun understand (and I went through what I wrote twice) - when did i do any personal attack or say anything bad about your religion?

well, i guess if thats the way u want to look at things, what can i say. u have ur freedom to voice.

see u outside of the box.

malayamuda said...

Discussion doesnt exist in some people's vocabulary

they say something stupid and counter it by saying

1. jangan persoalkan
2. jangan cabar
3. jangan hina
4. ini adalah hak saya

they say the above 4 things cos they know if there is a mature discussion they will lose cos their points will not even convince the pigs in selangor.

i rest my case

mozart1973 said...

and some people can't accept reasons because they think their reasons are better.

non-conformis said...

saudara Malayamuda,
tolong jangan guna bahasa kasar yg menyinggung perasaan teman2 lain, walaupun kita tidak setuju dengan mereka. ini tatatertib perbincangan.

cheers.

malayamuda said...

saya minta maaf

mozart1973 said...

so do i..

in this case i blame the majlis for not explaining the whole reasons behind the banned. If you guys wanna know further, please ask guru agama or those with knowledge, i dont think i can except for the fact that i understand the need.

malayamuda said...

MOZART 1973,

we just friends thrashing out something here ok. no hard feelings ok.

just healthy discussion.

non-conformis said...

Ok guys,
cheers. no hard feelings.
been nice discussions.

have a nice day

mozart1973 said...

no hard feelings but i have a nephew who is mentally challenged and we call him an angel in the family so next time, please try not to.

malayamuda said...

cheers and love to all

Clear mind said...

So much has been said and debated about the issue of gay, lesbian and homosexual. I don’t want to add more, but I would like to dare those advocators of gay, lesbian and homosexual, penkid or what ever you want to call them, why don’t you take one day off and try to become a gay, lesbian and homosexual. Then I believe you have more right to advocate what you don’t know about. I believe many of these advocators do it for the sense of it being the in thing in the west and by promoting something western, they think they are at par with the kuai low.

But what I am more interested to highlight is the author of this blog (Tulang Besi). From you writings, you seem to be an avid supporter of PR. Don’t you think that the very people you support are also the very people that are the main advocator of this concept of liberalism? And your very Malaysiakini which is happily and actively reporting the voices of these “activists” is also the very mass media that support the PR?

Have you ever think that your very own actions have partly contributed to open up more rooms for these confused liberalists to project their distorted, abnormal ideology? Well you may say that BN is corrupt. Well I agree with you. But in what way would you justify your struggle in fighting of a corrupt regime with what appear to be equally or more corrupt, either in one or another ways? Why shouting against them, when you are part of those who installed them into power?

So I hope you would quest your stand and redefine the objective of your struggle. You may have good intention, but good intention without right action will lead you astray. Before you continue, ask yourself, did the prophet S.A.W. ever work with the enemy to battle against another enemy? If you know not, then ask those in possession of the knowledge [16:43].

jstom98 said...

Did anyone consider that the rise in these mixed up kids is due to to modern medicine taken by PARENTS during pregnancy ? The commonly prescribed medication 'DANAZOL' (for fertility) has a side effect of children who are mixed sexually !

From http://www.drugs.com/cons/danazol.html

"Danazol may cause male-like changes in female children and cause premature sexual development in male children. It may also slow or stop growth in any child."

I know of two cases within my own limited circle of friends who act opposite gender like.

Can you then blame the children or the parents or the medicine ?

Tulang Besi said...

Dear Shame On You,

You said:

"You say that as if there is no other cause to the destructionof the family unit. Where is your take on the thousands and thousands of men who have left their wives and children and who refuse to take responsibility for the committments they have made to them."

REPLY: I actually didn't say that this is the sole reason why families disintegrate in a soceity.

But, by compromising your values on this issue, you are putting the social fabric at risk.

Anonymous said...

Hypocrite, that is the word for majority of people who are dealing with this issue but dont want to say it out loud what they really feel just because they want to jaga hati konon, caaiss buang karan!

Tulang Besi said...

Dear November 13, 2008 10:45 AM,

as i recalled, i have never insulted single parents.

My preoccupation is to reduce the number of single parents in the soceity.

The break up of the family institutions is the main cause for negative phenomenon like pengkik to appear in our society.

Tulang Besi said...

To the Malay homosexual,

I know you tried to change, but my advice to you is to try harder.

Don't give in to modern excuses like being gay is biological, because it is not.

Our sexual inclination is perfect when we were created by God. But somehow along the way, the wrong enviroment has shaped it our of whack.

My advice is don't give up and try harder.

Anonymous said...

Dear All,

I am a girl who always find other girls attractive.

I am still finding why am I born this way.

I am trying very very hard. I used to have a boyfriend tho I did not want to-well that's another story.

but if I could ask people who doesn't agree with same sex relationship to stop showing as if they want to kill these people like me coz it's really suffocating, with all the struggle and searching, reading what you understand about homosexual(some) are so SICKENING.

The reason gay people are at their 'heroic act' they are is because of the labelling attitude from others. GAY,HOMO,DYKE,PENGKID,LESBIAN.names.

I think fatwa is good for giving statement, awareness or to remind someone like me don't go very much further. As a homosexual now, I am okay with the fatwa, but it should not get very tight and becoming school rules.

Thnx if you're not a bully.

Anonymous said...

Well Malaysia is in a mess not because of pondans..the iblis politcians,and the highly kucing kurap citizens powered by greed,avarice have turned the country into a hell's kingdom..who r the ones that seek the services of pondans?Moostly lurus fellas!!! Arabs,Greeks lah number one kaki bontot.And regarding homosexulaity,many gays and lesbians have commited suicide for being different..have compassion on them..they too are human beings..

Tulang Besi said...

In truth, I am all for rehabilitation of people with homosexual tendencies.

I do not advocate them being discriminated or oppressed.

But, for the society to condone homosexuality, it will only destroy the sanctity of the family institution.

Anonymous said...

How is it that Iran can allow sex change operations, clearly recognising that gender identity and our born sex can be different things?

Iran is also an Islamic society and it has recognised transexual/intersexed rights to that extent.

I don't think this has anything to do with the religion of Islam, it is just men who think and feel they have the right to enforce that women must look and behave a certain way.(feminine,appealing to their aesthetic of soft pretty female)using the guise of their religious authority to impose behavioural codes on women.

Anyway u think about it logically, how do you want to enforce such a fatwa? Whos's standard of masculine/tomboy u wanna use? Short hair? Wears pants? Must wear skirt only? Not enought makeup?Apa standard nak pakai?

And the issue of breakup of family institutions through divorce is related to not so much related to "rising sexual deviance brougth on by the west and pengkid phenomena" but is more about women being able to assert their right to equality, that being a divorcee is less stigmatised now, of being able to earn a living on their own and knowing that they have the right to make decisions for themselves and their family(children etc) and which is not the sole right of the male parent of the family. Women never really had the supporting environment where they could break away from a marital situation which was bad for them until only very recently. Even now, its tough to get a divorce for a woman - they dont have the right to unilaterally declare divorce like a Muslim man,and in some cases there is no no-fault divorce.

No blogger id, runa

Azrul Mohd Khalib said...

Interesting isn't it that:

If a person is not a Malay and not a Muslim, that person is deemed as having no right to comment on things affecting Muslims. Nevermind that it is often on things that could be solved or discussed using plain common sense.

If a person is not a Malay and a Muslim, we then say that we do things differently here in Malaysia and our way of practicing Islam is different compared to those in Indonesia, China, the US etc. Somehow our brand of Islam is much better than everybody elses and our solutions work.

If a person is a Malay and a Muslim, this person is deemed to not know enough about Islam to qualify to make a comment or be a critic on things such as fatwas. Nevermind that God gave everyone a brain, blessed us with thinking intelligently and rather than straight jacketed us to be automatons, gifted us with a consciousness and conscience.

If a person is a Malay, a Muslim and qualified, we just brand the poor sod as a traitor to race, religion and has abused his or her knowledge of Islam.

The loudest voices (and those who often get their way) are those of the ones who are less tolerant of others, less forgiving, more judgemental and claim to be fighting to uphold Islam.

Is it not possible for us Muslims to recognise that there is so much for us to learn from non-Muslims? Why is there so much emphasise on punitive action, punishment, banning this and that, etc.

I believe that there is a crisis of faith amongst Malaysian Muslims today. Choosing to ostrasize or to pulaukan your brothers and sisters who you deem to be unfit, to be sinners, and confused, is unworthy of a Muslim.

jstom98 said...

everything is that perfect, why do we have cases like this ?:

Thomas Beatie, the US "pregnant man" who gave birth to a daughter in June, is expecting his second child.

The 34-year-old made the announcement in a television interview with Barbara Walters of ABC News.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/7728513.stm

Tulang Besi said...

azrul mohd khatib says:

"If a person is a Malay and a Muslim, this person is deemed to not know enough about Islam to qualify to make a comment or be a critic on things such as fatwas. Nevermind that God gave everyone a brain, blessed us with thinking intelligently and rather than straight jacketed us to be automatons, gifted us with a consciousness and conscience."

REPLY: Well what is so wrong about the fatwa, Azrul? Thus far, the only reason why the fatwa is wrong is because it doesn't adhere to values set by Western Liberals.

Or to put it more mildly, fatwa's like this is deemed unacceptable because it is not politically correct.

In other words, most of the rejection to the fatwa that i've read so far is ideological in nature, and nothing to do with facts.

kittykat46 said...

I'm a traditionalist who thinks that boys should be brought up as boys, and girls should be brought up as girls. Not trying to advocate gender confusion.

However, I'm also against persecuting the small minority of people who do have a confusion about their gender. What kind of threat do they pose to social order ? Hardly.

Anyway, I know as a non-Muslim I shouldn't try to impose my values on Muslims. But I'm well aware there are Muslims who think like I do. Don't their opinions count ?

The other point is this - There's clear past evidence that whatever behaviour, lifestyle etc. is made unacceptable to Muslims via fatwas or other Shariah regulations very often gets imposed later on non-Muslims via civil by-laws, especially by local and state authorities.

Non-Muslims in this country have legitimate reason to be concerned about fatwas supposedly restricted in implementation to Muslims only.

Anonymous said...

Ivy Josiah and frens

Gentlewomen & Gentlemen

Ivy Josiah.. pls read read read your Bible

Mr Tulang Besi..what say you?

Deuteronomy

22:5 A woman must not wear men's clothing, nor a man wear women's clothing, for the LORD your God detests anyone who does this. - Holy Bible NIV

22:5 The woman shall not wear that which pertaineth unto a man, neither shall a man put on a woman's garment: for all that do so are abomination unto the LORD thy God. - KJV

22:5 It is not right for a woman to be dressed in man's clothing, or for a man to put on a woman's robe: whoever does such things is disgusting to the Lord your God. - Good News Bible

22:5 A woman shall not wear an article proper to a man, nor shall a man put on a woman's dress; for anyone who does such things is an abomination to the LORD, your God. - the New American Bible

Get This Down. said...

Gosh, anonymous, you are absolutely correct! Never mind that the deepest Bible commentaries on Deuteronomy 22:5 are actually about forbidding women wearing men's armour to war and men wearing a robe to avoid them going into the tent to rape women. Forget that! We must follow the word of God and the Laws here word by word! No excuses, right?

Then we must also follow all these laws in the same book and chapter. Follow one, then follow all!

Your house must be equiped with a parapet!

Deu 22:8 When you build a new house, make a parapet around your roof so that you may not bring the guilt of bloodshed on your house if someone falls from the roof.

Stop wearing your usual office clothing to work!

Deu 22:11 Do not wear clothes of wool and linen woven together.

Also:

Deu 22:12 Make tassels on the four corners of the cloak you wear.

Oh ya, about "abominations". Remember to kill all girls who are not virgins on their wedding night. If not, ask the parents to prove the virginity (just forget the crap about hymens breaking when cycling. It is all a western liberal agenda, right TB?)

13 If a man takes a wife and, after lying with her, dislikes her 14 and slanders her and gives her a bad name, saying, "I married this woman, but when I approached her, I did not find proof of her virginity," 15 then the girl's father and mother shall bring proof that she was a virgin to the town elders at the gate. 16 The girl's father will say to the elders, "I gave my daughter in marriage to this man, but he dislikes her. 17 Now he has slandered her and said, 'I did not find your daughter to be a virgin.' But here is the proof of my daughter's virginity." Then her parents shall display the cloth before the elders of the town, 18 and the elders shall take the man and punish him. 19 They shall fine him a hundred shekels of silver [b] and give them to the girl's father, because this man has given an Israelite virgin a bad name. She shall continue to be his wife; he must not divorce her as long as he lives.
20 If, however, the charge is true and no proof of the girl's virginity can be found, 21 she shall be brought to the door of her father's house and there the men of her town shall stone her to death. She has done a disgraceful thing in Israel by being promiscuous while still in her father's house. You must purge the evil from among you.

KILL ALL ADULTERERS, EVEN THOUGH THE MEN ARE AT FAULT!

Deu 22:22 If a man is found sleeping with another man's wife, both the man who slept with her and the woman MUST DIE. You must purge the evil from Israel.

YEAH, WAY TO GO ANONYMOUS!

Just forget that Christians are asked to reflect on their own sins and not other's. Forget that the only buggers who follow these rules while looking and judging people are the Pharisees. Even forget that Christ have long hair and wears a cloak that resembles a dress like the Roman's toga (probably one of the reasons why Pharisees killed Christ Jesus.)

YEAH! Forget even Christ! Follow the rule you quoted, then all the rules. Remember to kill those bloody adulterers 'kay?

Oh ya, while you are on it. While you get rid of those abominations called "homosexuals" by using Leviticus, please kill all those children who disobey their parents. It is also written in the Bible!

Leviticus 20:9

9 " 'If anyone curses his father or mother, he must be put to death. He has cursed his father or his mother, and his blood will be on his own head.

-----------------------------------

I SUPPORT YOU TULANG BESI!

Yeah, really. Forget all these latest evidences of the bloody gejala homosex and pondans:

http://www3.telus.net/des1/Links.html

http://ajp.psychiatryonline.org/cgi/content/full/164/7/1122

http://www.scq.ubc.ca/genetics-of-sex-and-gender-identity/

http://jcem.endojournals.org/cgi/content/full/85/5/2034

http://www.ftminfo.net/genetics.html

http://www.ingentaconnect.com/content/klu/bege/2002/00000032/00000004/00377472

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2007/11/071107170741.htm

http://www.newscientist.com/article/dn14146-gay-brains-structured-like-those-of-the-opposite-sex.html?DCMP=ILC-hmts&nsref=news10_head_dn14146

http://www.plosone.org/article/info%3Adoi%2F10.1371%2Fjournal.pone.0002282

http://www.smh.com.au/news/specials/science/scientists-find-a-gene-for-the-transsexual-experience/2008/10/26/1224955854977.html

Like you said TB!

"Don't give in to modern excuses like being gay is biological, because it is not."

"Our sexual inclination is perfect when we were created by God. But somehow along the way, the wrong enviroment has shaped it our of whack."

Yes, I believe you. I do not believe in science or facts. I believe you because you say so. Like you, I do not need all the facts in the world because I can always cut off all conversation by saying God says so. Yes! The earth is flat because God says so. And you do not need to state any facts, even though authorative peer previewed evidences, not only from the West, but also Europe and Australia said you are wrong. You are right because you are right!

http://www.apa.org/pi/lgbc/publications/justthefacts.pdf

This is another western propoganda! Somehow gay activists are able to convince 477,000. Yes, 477,000 psychiatrists, medical officers, all of them. I do not know how they do it. It is mentioned that the APA was pressured. But curiously ALL THESE bodies support them too! DAMN!

American Academy of Pediatrics
American Association of School Administrators
American Counseling Association
American Federation of Teachers
American Psychological Association
American School Counselor Association
American School Health Association
Interfaith Alliance Foundation
National Association of School Psychologists
National Association of Secondary School Principals
National Association of SocialWorkers
National Education Association
School SocialWork Association of America

Do not worry, Tulang Besi. I support you. Yeah, those are not facts. What you say are hard facts. It is all about environment. Yea, distant child and mother pseudo-theory overules science. Gender confusion is real, biological evidence is not. Even though we do not have proof and only say it, we always can hide behind Our God! Yes! Insya-allah!

You do not believe in the current medical consensus, right! Just say so, Tulang Besi! I am proud of you!

Mag M said...

I don't encourage gays, tomboys, lesbians or whatever coz it is unhealthy but I also do not believe is persecuting them. Moreover it is really non of our business. However, if we want to help them, why not advice, counsel or help them using kind methods to come back to the right path instead of using punitive measures? Forcing only lead to underground activities. It will not stop it.

Mag M said...

Dear Azrul
You are a very wise man indeed. Rational in thinking. This world need people like you to go forward.

Anonymous said...

Get This Down. said...
Gosh, anonymous, you are absolutely correct! Never mind that the deepest Bible commentaries on Deuteronomy 22:5 are actually about forbidding women wearing men's armour to war and men wearing a robe to avoid them going into the tent to rape women. Forget that! We must follow the word of God and the Laws here word by word! No excuses, right?

Then we must also follow all these laws in the same book and chapter. Follow one, then follow all!

Deuteronomy 12:32 (Holy Bible NIV)

“See that you do all I command you; do not add to it or take away from it”


Holy Bible (NKJV)

Deuteronomy 20 .. Law Concerning War
21 .. Various Laws of Morality
22.. Various Laws of Morality


Holy Bible (NIV)

Deuteronomy 20 .. Going to War
21 .. Attonement for an Unsolved Murder, Marrying a Captive Woman,
The Right of Firstborn, A Rebellious Son
22.. Various Laws

Holy Bible – The New American Bible

Deuteronomy 20 ..Courage in War
21 .. Expiation of Untraced Murder
22.. Care for Lost Animals, Various Precepts, Crime against Marriage

Good News Bible

Deuteronomy 20 ..Concerning War
21 .. Concerning Unsolved Murders, Concerning Women Prisoners of
Wars, Concerning the First Son’s Inheritance, Concerning Disobedient
Son
22.. Various Laws, Laws Concerning Sexual Purity

Anonymous said...

To the Muslims who are still confuse about their gender, the neither here nor there kinda person,

Read this teguran from NIk Aziz and really really put a deep thought on this matter ! KOTA BAHARU: Mursyidul Am Pas Datuk Nik Abdul Aziz Nik Mat mengeluarkan peringatan keras kepada pertubuhan bukan kerajaan (NGO) supaya tidak mempertikaikan keputusan Majlis Fatwa Kebangsaan yang mengharamkan perlakuan wanita menyamai lelaki atau "pengkid".

Menteri Besar Kelantan itu turut menyifatkan pihak terbabit cuba melawan perintah Tuhan dan mencabuli asas syariat Islam.

"Majlis Fatwa ni keluarkan hukum berlandaskan Al-Quran dan Hadis dan Al-Quran itu datang daripada Allah. Allah yang cipta manusia dan alam dan dia tentukan hukum untuk manusia.

"Siapa kita ni sampai nak lawan dia (Allah). Handal sangat kita nak lawan Allah?," katanya kepada pemberita selepas merasmikan pembukaan restoran London Fish Tales di sini hari ini.

Beliau mengulas NGO bukan Islam mempertikaikan keputusan Majlis Fatwa Kebangsaan yang mengharamkan perlakuan wanita menyamai lelaki atau "pengkid".

Baru-baru ini, NGO tersebut, Katagender dan FoodnotBombs mengadakan demonstrasi di Kuala Lumpur City Centre (KLCC) bagi membantah keputusan majlis itu mengharamkan perlakuan 'pengkid'.

Pada 23 Oktober lalu, Muzakarah Jawatankuasa Fatwa Majlis Kebangsaan telah mengeluarkan fatwa mengharamkan perbuatan perempuan yang membuat penampilan seperti lelaki atau "pengkid" kerana gejala tersebut di kalangan remaja perempuan Islam di negara ini semakin membimbangkan.

Nik Abdul Aziz berkata beliau meminta mana-mana pihak tanpa mengira NGO Islam atau bukan Islam agar tidak campur tangan mengenai fatwa yang telah dikeluarkan. Malahan beliau kesal dengan orang perempuan Islam yang tidak mengamalkan Islam dalam kehidupan mereka sehingga terlibat dalam gejala pengkid itu. "Mereka merupakan benih. Apabila orang Islam tidak hidup mengikut cara Islam jadi orang bukan Islam mula berani kata depan kita," katanya. BERNAMA

Anonymous said...

Do you all know what is fatwa?...

Fatwa is a repeating message that refers to Al-Quran and Hadis. In simple word, it is a reminder/advise to the MUSLIMS.

To non-muslim, if you are pitty on 'pengkid', or you have friends of 'pengkid' and you support them. Just say to them, carry on my friend...be a 'pengkid'., cause fatwa is not law, so nothing happend if you ignore the fatwa.

The fact is, if u are true muslim, you already know that 'pengkid' is totally disallowed. but to those who stil want to be a 'pengkid'. so be it....at least fatwa reminds you already.

CLEAR!....

please do understand, 'pengkid' is different from 'tomboy'. Pengkid is similar to gay. So whoever want to be a gay..be it....if you are christian, it's not wrong to be gay/'pengkid', same goes to buddha and hindu....just follow your instinct..be a 'pengkid'. To atheis...well you always want to be anything....gay,lesbian,pengkid or whatever

Anonymous said...

Orang melayu ni serba boleh, sampai Tuhan pun nak dicabar! Melayu Malaya BOLEH! Tahniah. Wonder what next????? Shame on you so call SISTER IN ISLAM! Sister in ISlam ke sister selam?

Ida Bakar said...

Dear all,

I don't think Ivy Josiah friends are advocating a gender confused society. She is saying that this fatwa is yet another in the long series that is ill-thought out.

To me this fatwa is downright sinister. I have out my argument on malaysiakini (Here is the link
http://www.malaysiakini.com/letters/93001

and here is an excerpt

While this edict will no doubt fall on many deaf ears, many more will allow it to govern their conscience. The most susceptible are those at the cusp of womanhood ie,. those seeking to find themselves in an increasingly complex and globalised world. If a woman dare not experiment with alternative haircut and attire, will she dare explore her personality?

If she is afraid that her raised voice towards her male colleagues will diminish her femininity, will she ever learn to be assertive in the wider world? If she is anxious about her physicality, will she have the energy to fight the attrition to her independent soul?

This recent fatwa is pernicious in that it leaves some section of the Muslim population fearful lest their actions offend the belief they hold dear.Gumption and imagination are qualities essential to prosper in this brave new world - not forever forfeiting one’s heart and mind to the exigencies of fellow men however exalted their positions are.

Ida Bakar

Anonymous said...

For those quoted deutronomy verses from bible old testament esp 22:5, may i ask u, are u christian ? may i suggest u to view 'http://www.queerme.com/deut__225.htm.

Anonymous said...

This is just my point of view.All religions forbids their followers practicing such way of life regardless islam , christian and judaism..But if we want to force pengkid to change their life style by making certain rules to enforce it, it just invite other problems in human social life.They might change the cloth and appearance by wearing ladies attire,but what happen if in deep inside their 'feelings' remain the same? they can pretend to the public they are 'normal' and at the same time they could have an affair with womens and no one could ever predict the real 'situation'. Just give them some space and time to change rather we non stop insulting them through open discussion. To force people is not the good method coz at the end of the day they just pretend in front of us to be normal person. Do you all want this scenario happen ? I always believe any good deeds must come sincerely come from our heart.No one shall be forced of what they dont want to do.

Anonymous said...

Dear TB,

Your words says ' I for one have been blessed with twin daughters and I would not want my daughters to grow up and become “pengkik”. I want them to be a well balanced woman and mother. Therefore, I shall make sure that my twin daughters do not grow up and get their mind poisoned by the likes of Ivy Josiah and friends.


Dont be so certain and proud you could raise your twin daughter perfectly well balanced women and mother.You wouldnt know what is going happen in coming next 20 years.

Every parents would love to have perfect daughter like you do but unfortunately some of them could have pengkid as a daughter.They never predict this could happened to them.Can we consider their fail in raising their child ?

some of the pengkid really working hard to support their parents,family, sibblings for education eventhough they are not perfect as a women, do we still have to punish,label them as bad just because of their boyish appearance without consider their good deeds,sacrifices to the family ? do you all really consider your neighbour feelings when you dont know how to quit insulting them just because of having daughter in boyish appearance ?

Agreed lesbian and homo is forbids in the religion but we have to control ourselves from blatantly condamn people. Being straight is not the ticket for us to condamn people .

Anonymous said...

It looks like that 'pengkid' have many supporters here.

Well done. Long live 'pengkid'.

Hmm..next. who's daughter or sister want to be next my close partner...
Anybody here? especially support 'pengkid'...

Can you offer your daughter or sister?..Come on, sporting la...

Anonymous said...

nak tanya korang,

Aku ada kakak.. tapi sayangnya dia pengkid..apa yg nak aku buat sekarang? nak pulaukan dia ?nak putus hubungan adik beradik dengan dia? nak kutuk dia ? nak ingatkan dia selalu 'kau tak kan diakui umat muhamad ' ?

sayang seribu kali sayang dia pengkid.. tapi aku tetap hormat dia dan sayang dia sebab dia lah yg byk berkorban untuk aku menanggung persekolahan aku sampai ipt dan menanggung mak aku .Nak harapkan abang2 aku yg lain,semuanya ada komitmen dan tak kurang gak menyusahkan mak aku dengan komitmen mereka..

Bila isu ni keluar,kakak aku dapat tempias yg paling hebat dengan orang sekeliling..mulalah kata kami sekeluarga tak tau didik dia..pendek kata semuanya buruklah. Tapi perlu ke aku melatah dengan orang sekeliling hanya sebab kakak aku pengkid ?

Itu pun rasanya kakak aku dah buat sehabis baik tak terlibat dengan gejala2 tak sihat walaupun dia pengkid.tak pulak aku nampak dia mengusung perempuan sana sini. jadi adil ke aku nak demand dia untuk buat itu ini dan pulaukan dia kalau dia tak ikut cakap aku untuk berubah ? perlu ke aku lupakan nilai kebaikan dia yg berkorban segala2nya hanya untuk aku dan keluarga walau dia tak dapat apa yg dia nak dlm hidup dia sebabnya dia utamakan persekolahan aku hanya sebab dia pengkid ?

Pengkid ni pun macam perempuan lain gak. hati lembut.silapnya hanya pada penampilan mereka yg akan buatkan orang menghukum mereka tak ingat hukum tuhan..

Susah aku nak cakap..kalau aku membela kakak aku nanti orang kata aku menegak kan maksiat , kalau aku berkeras nanti terjejas hubungan keluarga. Apa perasaan korang jika korang seorang pengkid yg sepanjang hidup korang berbakti pada keluarga tetapi balasannya penghinaan dari ahli keluarga korang hanya disebabkan korang pengkid ? tolong lah jgn cakap yg korang tak rasa apa2 dalam hati..

Aku sentiasa berdoa moga kakak aku diberi kekuatan untuk berubah.Kalau masyarakat nak terus menghukum orang macam kakak aku,aku pun tak boleh nak buat apa lah. Biarlah masa dan keadaan menentukan

Anonymous said...

Aku ada kakak.. tapi sayangnya dia pengkid..apa yg nak aku buat sekarang? nak pulaukan dia ?nak putus hubungan adik beradik dengan dia? nak kutuk dia ? nak ingatkan dia selalu 'kau tak kan diakui umat muhamad ' ?

ini macam orang jahil berkata kata. Hukum semua adalah daripada Allah dan kita sebagai hambanya wajib mematuhinya segala suruhanNya dan menjauhi segala laranganNya.

Anonymous said...

Aku ada kakak.. tapi sayangnya dia pengkid..apa yg nak aku buat sekarang? nak pulaukan dia ?nak putus hubungan adik beradik dengan dia? nak kutuk dia ? nak ingatkan dia selalu 'kau tak kan diakui umat muhamad ' ?

ini macam orang jahil berkata kata. Hukum semua adalah daripada Allah dan kita sebagai hambanya wajib mematuhinya segala suruhanNya dan menjauhi segala laranganNya.

Anonymous said...

ini macam orang jahil berkata kata. Hukum semua adalah daripada Allah dan kita sebagai hambanya wajib mematuhinya segala suruhanNya dan menjauhi segala laranganNya - bagus statement ni..orang jahil berkata2. Tapi rasanya dia bukanlah support kakak dia berkelakuan macam tu.tu pasal dia tanya kat semua ' apa aku nak buat?

bila baca kat perenggan bawah kan ke orang ni kata dia berdoa moga kakak dia berubah..Dan tak pulak membantah kalau masyarakat terus berkata..

kekadang jgn emo sgt.. kita bukan berada kat tempat dia..dia mungkin dalam dilema sebAbnya keluarga. Bersyukurlah sebab kita ni sempurna dan keluarga kita pun sempurna tak di uji dengan adanya salah sorang ahli keluraga macam ni. Kalau tak, kita pun mati kutu dibuatnya..

Anonymous said...

Anonymous said...

For those quoted deutronomy verses from bible old testament esp 22:5, may i ask u, are u christian ? may i suggest u to view 'http://www.queerme.com/deut__225.htm.
------------------------

..will do. Thank you for your kind suggestion. No, im not a Xtian.

Anonymous said...

Anonymous said...

nak tanya korang,

Aku ada kakak.. tapi sayangnya dia pengkid..apa yg nak aku buat sekarang?

Rajin solat mengadu pada Allah mohon kakak sentiasa berada di jalan yang di redhai tuhan. Jangan cepat berputus asa.

Peribadi seorang Muslim

"Seorang Muslim yang sebenar ia lah orang yang terselamat dari bencana lidahnya dan tangannya orang-orang Muslim yang lain. Dan orang yang berhijrah itu ia lah orang yang meninggalkan apa yang di larang Allah melakukannya."
- Imam Bukhari

Rasulullah s.a.w.bersabda:

"Sesunguhnya dunia ini adalah perhiasan, dan tiadalah sesuatu dari perhiasan dunia itu yang lebih baik daripada seorang isteri yang saleh."

Tafsir Al-Khazin:

1.Nafsu ammarah-bissu' ia iu nafsu yan menyeret diri seseorang kepada mencintai yang jahat, mempengaruhinya sehingga ia tunduk di bawah kuasanya, lalu ia pun melakukan perkara jahat itu.

2. Nafsu lawwammah ia itu nafsu yang mencela kelakuan seseorang yang melakukan kejahatan, menyedarkannya akan dirinya yang telah berdosa itu, sehingga orang itu akhirnya menyesali dirinya, lalu ia pun bertaubat dari dosa itu.

3. Nafsu mutmainnah ia itu nafsu yang sentiasa dalam ketenangan kerana terselamat dari segala kejahatan dan dosa atau pun nafsu yang telah bertaubat dari dosanya sehingga ia menjadi bersih suci semula saperti sediakala.

Berkata Abu Darda' r.a. bahawasanya Nabi s.a.w. bersabda: Allah telah berfirman:

"Kalau hambaKu mendatangiKu dengan dosa sepenuh bumi, tetapi ia tiada mensyirikkan Aku dengan sesuatu pun, niscaya Aku akan menyambutnya dengan maghfirah (keampunan)sepenuh itu pula."

- (Riwayat Thabarani)

Anonymous said...

www.queerme.com/deut__225.htm under column 'Embraced by God'. No comment . But enjoy readings about their debate reason why Deuteronomy 22:5 isn’t a valid teaching for Christians.

Anonymous said...

Anonymous said...

www.queerme.com/deut__225.htm under column 'Embraced by God'. No comment . But enjoy readings about their debate reason why Deuteronomy 22:5 isn’t a valid teaching for Christians.


The bottom line: Jesus welcomes everyone into his family—even people who come to realize their gender doesn’t match their genitalia. As we have seen, there are many reasons why Deuteronomy 22:5 isn’t a valid teaching for Christians. While some will respond to my attacks by defending the absolute perfection of Scripture, I believe it is much more important to defend the absolute perfection of God. The bottom line is that the writer of Deuteronomy has presented us with a portrait of God that is utterly blasphemous—a god that is absolutely unworthy of our worship. From the example of Old Testament heroes like Daniel, Shadrach, Meshach and Abed-Nego—who courageously risked their lives by refusing to worship false gods—let us gain the courage to increasingly confront the false god(s) of conservative Christianity.
- Chris D Kramer

Yes, no comment

Matthew
________________________________________
Chapter 7
15 Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.
16 Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?
17 Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit.
18 A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.
19 Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.
20 Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.
21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

Anonymous said...

Its forbids anyway but one think i could amazed about the bright side of gay/nyah/pengkid/-they are great person. As you all can see nowadays quite a numbers of student in university/college is gay /lesbian and most of the gaymen holding high post in organisation, head of department ,professional line and they are bunch great guys. Their capabilty just like others.I just curious how they survive in their life facing a lot of troubles surroundings them when people for sure dont know how to quit attacking their personality but yet their succeded in career and educations .Hope i could gain their strenght to achieve my goals in career,education.

Anonymous said...

It has been scientifically proved that pengkid is destine to be as they are because of their chromosome/gene factor.It is not entirely their fault for being gay. Dont simply condemn them or force them to be what they are not.

As a person,we should all have freedom to wear what ever we want.
In this case, maybe gov could give strict order to have all the women to wear women clothings during working hour.
This way, pengkids will at least wear women cloths without any objections just like school rules having girls to wear girls uniforms to school.

So that they are free to wear their normal leisure clothing during their own time.

I think this is more reasonable action than forcing people to not wear men clothing at all. this doesn't make any sense since women clothing nowadays too has a lot of pants and shirts.

We should not push them (muslim pengkid) to change or we might face another unsolved issue like 'Murtad' which concern me most.

it is afraid that they will take chance to convert to other religion and becoming murtad just to escape from this issue.

Nauzzubillah...

Tulang Besi said...



Yeah, really. Forget all these latest evidences of the bloody gejala homosex and pondans:

http://www3.telus.net/des1/Links.html

http://ajp.psychiatryonline.org/cgi/content/full/164/7/1122

http://www.scq.ubc.ca/genetics-of-sex-and-gender-identity/

http://jcem.endojournals.org/cgi/content/full/85/5/2034

http://www.ftminfo.net/genetics.html

http://www.ingentaconnect.com/content/klu/bege/2002/00000032/00000004/00377472

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2007/11/071107170741.htm

http://www.newscientist.com/article/dn14146-gay-brains-structured-like-those-of-the-opposite-sex.html?DCMP=ILC-hmts&nsref=news10_head_dn14146

http://www.plosone.org/article/info%3Adoi%2F10.1371%2Fjournal.pone.0002282

http://www.smh.com.au/news/specials/science/scientists-find-a-gene-for-the-transsexual-experience/2008/10/26/1224955854977.html


Yet none of these studies are even remotely conclusive.

Just because the number of studies are more than one doesn't prove anything.

So far, all studies point to one fact: there is no conclusive evidence linking man's biology to their homosexual nature.

Tulang Besi said...


This is another western propoganda! Somehow gay activists are able to convince 477,000. Yes, 477,000 psychiatrists, medical officers, all of them. I do not know how they do it. It is mentioned that the APA was pressured. But curiously ALL THESE bodies support them too! DAMN!

American Academy of Pediatrics
American Association of School Administrators
American Counseling Association
American Federation of Teachers
American Psychological Association
American School Counselor Association
American School Health Association
Interfaith Alliance Foundation
National Association of School Psychologists
National Association of Secondary School Principals
National Association of SocialWorkers
National Education Association
School SocialWork Association of America


Here's an excerpt from APA about Homosexuality


"There is no consensus among scientists about the exact reasons that an individual develops a heterosexual, bisexual, gay or lesbian orientation. Although much research has examined the possible genetic, hormonal, developmental, social, and cultural influences on sexual orientation, no findings have emerged that permit scientists to conclude that sexual orientation is determined by any particular factor or factors. Many think that nature and nurture both play complex roles..."

Tulang Besi said...

My question is:

If homosexuality is not a mental disorder, then why are there gays and lesbians able to change their sexual orientation into normality?

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