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Wednesday, November 19, 2008

RPK Should Stop Lying About Islam.

I must’ve missed the posting on MTday of RPK's latest article entitled "Theology vs Secularism". When I read the article, I am perplexed by the amount of lies the article is espousing.

Although I thoroughly despise the ISA action against RPK, but I have to rebut the lies contained in his article entitled as the above. I don’t know what RPK aim to achieve by uttering all these lies?


Lie #1:

RPK says:

“Malays, today, talk about restoring the Caliphate and implementing Islamic laws. In short, rejecting a Secular State in favour of a Theology State – meaning an Islamic State of course. But do these some people know what an Islamic State is? And do these people also know how the many experiments of Islamic States have gone horribly wrong and the new “Islamic” government was worse than the old government it replaced?
In a nutshell a Secular State or Theology State is just a name. Names are not crucial.”


REPLY: In a nut shell, RPK is lying through his teeth.

In the first place, an Islamic State has never been a theological state. Both theological and Islamic States are mutually exclusive. Why? Because a theological state would require the existence of an infallible elite that cannot be questioned because they are inspired by God.

In Islam, only the Prophet SAW is infallible. For a Muslim to claim infallibility is heresy and punishable under the Islamic Penal Code. Therefore, here we see RPK using lies to paint Islam and the Islamic State.

If RPK requires more information, feel free to read the article by Noah Feldman entitled “Why Shariah” in which Noah effectively negate the notion that an Islamic State is a Theological State.

One question to RPK, if Islamic State is such a theological state, why do we have “Appalete Shariah Court” (Mahkamah Rayuan Shariah) in all states in Malaysia?

Lie #2:

“What happened over those 50 years? Have Malays become more religious and more conscious of their Islamic duties? Over the last month, three women have been charged for corruption and fraud. All are pretty senior Malay government officers. And all wear the tudung. So, the wearing of the tudung can’t be equated with being more religious or being a better Muslim. If not, they would not accept bribes or cheat. Wearing the tudung is merely a symbol. It is a symbol that you are very Islamic. But this does not mean you really are. “

REPLY: Wearing the tudung is a compulsory for every Muslim women alive. It is stated clearly in the Quran and Sunnah. Those not wearing tudung is disobeying God’s order and those who wears one are obeying God.

But, God has many other decrees and rules. So, if you follow one and break others, the total sum of your deeds may not be enough to carry you to Heaven in the Hereafter.

What RPK is doing now is more dangerous than not wearing a tudung. Not wearing one is only deemed as sinful, but to deny such law is an act of insubordination against God. Why? Because the decree to wear a tudung is a direct order by God as stated in the Quran and Sunnah.

RPK’s attempt to muddy the issue by raising the issue of “rates of religiosity” is pathetic. It's so shoddy and lame. The simple rule of religiosity is the amount of God’s decree you obey and the amount of God’s prohibition that u avoid.

This issue is solved 1400 years ago and it’s never an issue at all. I guess RPK missed the boat by just about 1400 years.


Lie #3:

“Let us examine some of the failed experiments. Some predominantly Muslim countries have flirted with the idea of changing their government and have discovered that the newly installed Muslim leaders were no better, or worse, that the “kafir” leaders. Millions have died because of this, Muslims killed at the hand of Muslims.
Kurdistan, Afghanistan, Armenia, Iraq, Iran, Saudi Arabia, Algeria, Morocco, Sudan, Pakistan, Serbia, Gratis, Syria, Bosnia – just think of any country where either Muslims, Christians or Jews make up the majority population and I will show you a tragedy.”


REPLY: What can I say. RPK’s unscroupolousness is glaring as a hot son in this statement.

Firstly, most of the states he mentioned above are never an experimentation of Islamic state. Algeria, Morocco, Kurdistan, Iraq, etc are never an experiment of an Islamic state.

Second. states like Afghanistan, Sudan, Somalia, Pakistan etc was already a failed state under years of rule by their “SECULAR ELITES”. These states become failed not because of Islam or Islamic State but because of corruption and incompetence commited by their secular rulers.

Third, funny that RPK mention Saudi Arabia because Gordon Brown just finished his Middle East tour in which he urged Gulf States (including Saudi Arabia) to stump up extra cash for the IMF.

Some Saudi investors helped to propped up Barclay Bank by contributing to the £5.8 billion into the bank.

Funny, a leader of a developed nation would come and ask for help from a failed state like Saudi Arabia?

Fourth, to use Iran as an example is also unfair considering Iran have been under siege by the Americans for the last 30 years. Yet, they still survive and u don’t hear people dying of starvation in Iran as opposed to people in other secular states like most of African states.

Also, UAE doesn’t seem to think that Iran is such a failed state when UAE handles 60% of Iran’s merchandise trade and hosts about 10000 Iranian firms in UAE. UAE is also linked to Iran by about 250 flights a week.

Not so much of a failed state, I guess Iran is.

Lie #4:

“An Islamic State is no guarantee that you would get a good government. Neither would a Secular State. So it is best that the rhetoric and setting up an Islamic State be discarded and instead we focus on the issue of the setting up of a just state of whatever kind. “


REPLY: Since RPK declares that he is a Muslim, allow me to quote from a Jewish man name Noah Feldman to rebut RPK the Muslim:

““For many Muslims today, living in corrupt autocracies, the call for Shariah is not a call for sexism, obscurantism or savage punishment but for an Islamic version of what the West considers its most prized principle of political justice: the rule of law.”

The Islamic State/Chaliphate that RPK have been so ignorant in rejecting has provided Muslims 1400 years of “rule of law”. Read Noah Feldman article here to get more information

The Caliphate/Islamic state would guarantee rule of law, checks and balance and prevent totalitarianism in Muslim lands. It has been like so for the last 1400 years and it is a proven system. It is anything but an experiment But RPK is too ignorant to know that.

RPK says Islamic State/Caliphate is an experiment. I say to RPK, we have 1400 years worth of success. In fact, Muslims were stripped of their Islamic rule by force and not out of their own willingness.


Lie #5:

“We have seen too many deaths over the last 60 years, people killed in the name of Islam. Tens of millions have been killed. Two million in Afghanistan. One million in Iran. One million in Iraq. One million in Turkey. More than one million in Algeria. Many more millions in other Muslim countries. The list goes on. “

REPLY: Again we see RPK’s pathetic attempt to lie on Islam. For your kind information RPK, these killings that took place in countries you have named above are killings done by Secularists upon their own people.

They are never done in the name of Islam. Ever. How can RPK stoop so low as to advocate blatant lies like this. I mean, even if one were to lie, at least be sophisticated in doing it.

This lie is so amateur and shoddy.


I think that’s all for now. To my readers, please be fully aware of attempts to smear Islam’s good name even if it is done by people who claims to be Muslims like RPK

Tulang Besi

Posted by Super Admin
Friday, 31 October 2008 11:09
Theology Versus Secularism

NO HOLDS BARRED
Raja Petra Kamarudin
It appears like the Turkish Prime Minister is in trouble with Turkey’s court. They have accused him of being anti-secular, which is a crime in Turkey. They say the Prime Minister want to abolish or remove the anti-tudung law, which means Turkey’s citizens will no longer be forced NOT to wear the tudung. If you remember, recently, a Turkish lady Member of Parliament was evicted from parliament for insisting that she wear her tudung in the building. University student too must remove their tudung before they enter the university gate.
Turkey is on the other extreme of Afghanistan where the “religious police” would throw acid on faces of women who do not wear the tudung.
Malaysia of 2008 is a far cry from Malaysia of 1958, the first Anniversary of Merdeka. Then, skirts and bare-backs were the order of the day and the tudung was a rare thing at best, the more “decent” Malay women would wear a selendang wit the front hair revealed. Today, women who wear bare-back clothes are arrested.
What happened over those 50 years? Have Malays become more religious and more conscious of their Islamic duties? Over the last month, three women have been charged for corruption and fraud. All are pretty senior Malay government officers. And all wear the tudung. So, the wearing of the tudung can’t be equated with being more religious or being a better Muslim. If not, they would not accept bribes or cheat. Wearing the tudung is merely a symbol. It is a symbol that you are very Islamic. But this does not mean you really are.
Malays, today, talk about restoring the Caliphate and implementing Islamic laws. In short, rejecting a Secular State in favour of a Theology State – meaning an Islamic State of course. But do these some people know what an Islamic State is? And do these people also know how the many experiments of Islamic States have gone horribly wrong and the new “Islamic” government was worse than the old government it replaced?
In a nutshell a Secular State or Theology State is just a name. Names are not crucial. What is would be the function rather than form. Form must follow functions, and not the other way round.
Let us examine some of the failed experiments. Some predominantly Muslim countries have flirted with the idea of changing their government and have discovered that the newly installed Muslim leaders were no better, or worse, that the “kafir” leaders. Millions have died because of this, Muslims killed at the hand of Muslims.
Kurdistan, Afghanistan, Armenia, Iraq, Iran, Saudi Arabia, Algeria, Morocco, Sudan, Pakistan, Serbia, Gratis, Syria, Bosnia – just think of any country where either Muslims, Christians or Jews make up the majority population and I will show you a tragedy. No, theology is not the answer. We can’t solve problems by replacing a Secular State with a Theology State. History has shown us that, in fact, more damage is caused. The system is not the solution. It is those behind the system that matter.
A year after the end of the Second World War the Algerians wanted the French Colonialists out of their country. The eight-year war led to the loss of more than a million lives. Both sides wee equally guilty of the barbaric killings where old folks, babies and women were not spared. Finally, in 1962, the French decided to go home. But until today the killings continue; except now it is not Muslims killing Christians but Islamists killing Secularists – and vice versa.
The Turks too wanted the kafir out, so millions of Armenians were massacred. The Kurds were the willing servants to rape and murder the Armenians. This was ethic cleansing of the kind perpetuated by the Germans during World War 2; though maybe only a quarter in number died compared to the Jews.
Later the Kurds were themselves exterminated by the Iraqis and Turks. And the same went for the Afghans where they first killed each other to establish an Islamic State and then the Islamic State killed off as many as the previous “kafir” state did. In Iran, too, more died in the new Islamic State than in the Shah’s “kafir” state.
An Islamic State is no guarantee that you would get a good government. Neither would a Secular State. So it is best that the rhetoric and setting up an Islamic State be discarded and instead we focus on the issue of the setting up of a just state of whatever kind.
We have seen too many deaths over the last 60 years, people killed in the name of Islam. Tens of millions have been killed. Two million in Afghanistan. One million in Iran. One million in Iraq. One million in Turkey. More than one million in Algeria. Many more millions in other Muslim countries. The list goes on.
The Iranians say: those Iranians who died fighting Iraqis are going to heaven as the Iraqis are “kafir”. The Iraqis say: those Iraqis who died fighting Iranians are going to heaven as the Iranians are “kafir”. So, both Iranians and Iraqis are “kafir”. Or is it both Iranians and Iraqis who kill each other are going to heaven since both kill and die in the name of Islam?
With all this killing and the tens of millions of deaths over the last 60 years, all the so-called “Islamic States” are nothing short of failed states whereas “God-less” states like Sweden are heaven on earth.
Maybe you need to choose an Islamic State to go to heaven. But thus far all the Islamic States have proven to be hell. Maybe this is because they talk more about life after death rather than about life itself.
READ ALSO: Turkish court says PM involved in anti-secularism

66 comments:

Anonymous said...

TB,

why not you and RPK go to have a debate on this which IMHO will be more interesting?

passerby

Johnny Utah said...

TB,

Can you please provide me the verse in the Quran that states wearing hijab to cover ones hair is wajib

Jed Yoong said...

ello brother...

kee kee i like reading ur pieces on rpk's islamic pieces..
anyway he is free to express his opinions n those who read know he is not a scholar n is just giving the view of an ordinary muslim, which is fine...kee kee
ain't turkey a muslim country? but 'secular'?

ylcw said...

The Bible is read, and interpreted in many ways by the Catholics and Protestants. RPK reads the Quran and you read the Quran. Both are good Muslims, but just because one interprets it differently from the other does not mean one is lying - what reflects badly is when one accuses the other of lying. Judge not, so ye may not be judged.
Cheers ... ylcw

Anonymous said...

You mean to say malays who were not using the tudung in the sixties are sesat,come on la jagan buat orang sesat.

Tulang Besi said...

Dear passerby,

I am open for an open debate with RPK on Islam.

Anonymous said...

TB,
Did RPK wrote them all or by some 'misfits'(may I borrow your word)? Keep guessing. RPKs Msia Today is one of my favourite site.Yours too.

Anonymous said...

Johnny Utah said...

TB,

Can you please provide me the verse in the Quran that states wearing hijab to cover ones hair is wajib

Hijab is about aurat/aurah tudung is a fashion

Anonymous said...

TB
Thank you, that will the same words as mine. I don't what this man is up to.As his view on Islam He is no better than Ayah Pin. Thank You

zeno of ilea said...

when we allow ignorants to speak on our behalf we do get this kind of situation.

there are those that are simply ignorant of their own ignorance.

there are those that are simply ignorant of the proper knowledge.

there are those who are simply arrogant dan defiant.

and there are those who are sophist and pretend to be sophisticated.

the Prophet and his heirs did speak about such people.

Anonymous said...

It is very obvious RPK is 'sesat'. He is no more a muslim. He is an enemy of Islam of a special kind, a very dangerous type. There were so many lies in all his articles about Islam and thank got he got the ISA even though for 2 months. His readers mostly non-muslim believed him so much because of the hatred against the Malay race. They will denied but we all knew it. They would cheer a malay who would denounced NEP (in this case Anwar) and RPK for humiliating Islam.

RPK will never stop and will continue until he died. I just hope earth will not accept him for whatever he did.

chong said...

that's the way. if you don't agree on the points, bring them up and talk about them to get a better understanding for both sides. and we will always be surprise to find out more in a discussion.

unlike the BN, everything is issue sensitive. my way or no way.

Anonymous said...

What about all those suicide bombers who kill countless others and die in the name of the Islamic God? What about Hamas and Fatah killing one another in the Gaza Strip? Is it all for power and glory? Justice?

veritas

Anonymous said...

I guess what RPK is saying is not to act hypocritical and hide behind religion for ones wrong doings. I am not a muslim but i have deep respect PAS spiritual leader Nik Aziz Nik Mat as he is one of the few good men in Malaysian politics. I can totally disagree with his views.

I will give you an example. My uncle belongs to the royal club in Johor. During the fasting month, they ban the cafeteria from selling food due to the religious sensitivities. Yet the very people who evoke the ban go to the higher floor closed room and not only eat but also drink. There are many hypocrites like this in Malaysia.

Likewise his firm asked him whether he would like to head the Pakistan office in lieu of a Malay guy. My uncle found out that to get contracts there you should be able to drink with the contractors and his malay colleague could not handle that.

Likewise a chinese contractor from Singapore during a drinking session in pakistan noticed police waiting outside the compund. Guess what, they were there to prevent people entering and observing that these guys were drinking.

Anonymous said...

In contuation my another uncle who left Malaysia because of the impostion of malay language midway during his schooling life. He said that when he was young, if you go to any malay house, they would make sure that no beef (Hindus dont take beef) was served. Now he feels they do it on purpose. I guess this can be an assegeration but it does occur.

Likewise when he came back to renew his IC, the officer asked him why he did not take up English citizenship. He told the guy that he was always proud to be Malaysian.

Anonymous said...

Lastly in Singapore there is a trend not to eat for muslims to prefer to eat only in muslim coffee shops etc. Often if their non malay colleagues join them, not to offend them they buy muslim/indian muslim food. I likewise do so.

However what shocked me when working with Saudis/Pakistani group I was working with is that they were happy to eat anywhere that served no pork and lard. I was suprised.

Likewise when one of my firend went to UK and the Middle eastern vendor was cooking kebabs and said one side is Halal and the next was not, he still ate there.

Now eating Halal is warranted by the religion and must be followed and I do not advocate otherwise. However for the sake of religious tolerance not just muslims but hindus, buddisht and christians, people should be more tolerant and a bit more accomodating.

At the end of the day, all religions that survived so long and are followed because they want us to be good.

Anonymous said...

veritas many people are misled by opportunistic religious leaders. It has happened in all religions. Their actions should not be reflective of all the others. Thats one reason why I respect Nik Aziz.

Anonymous said...

Al Quran is not like Bible. It's remain constant for last 1400 years and forever. You can confirm this by taking a sample of Al-Quran from Afrika, South America, Europe and Asia. You can see the contents is same and not dispute form one to another. The requirement for wearing tudung is clearly stated in Al Quran: Al Ahzab 33:59 "Hai Nabi katakanlah kepada istri-istrimu, anak-anak perempuanmu dan istri-istri orang mukmin: "Hendaklah mereka mengulurkan jilbabnya/tudung ke seluruh tubuh mereka". Yang demikian itu supaya mereka lebih mudah untuk dikenal, karena itu mereka tidak diganggu. Dan Allah adalah Maha pengampun lagi Maha penyayang" The call someone as good muslim, Islam has set a certain parameter to follow. This criteria as stated in the Al Quran and Hadith and one of it is wearing tudung. For example like our sons if he wanted to further his study in Uk, definitely he must pass the A-level exam. Same like Islam you must fullfill minimum critera then you can call them a good muslim ie; Syahadah, Pray 5 times day, Fasting in month of Ramadhan, Perform Haj, Zakat, Tutup Aurat and Stop People from doing the wrong thing (ISA, Rasuah, Pecah Amanah, Tipu etc, and courage people to do a good thing (Helping people, give donations etc)If you say perempuan pakai tudung buat rasuah, that means she only fullfill one criteria and fail about the rest. We can't call this lady as a good muslim. That why in Islam 5 minus 1 is not 4 BUT 0. Why ? because you have to fullfill the minimum requirement set by Islam and this requirement can be acceptable by all as a human kind. Tell me, what are the the bad thing Islam teach their follower ? None. Nowadays people start realizing that Islamic Economic is the best economic model even non muslim talk about islamic economic and become a scholar of Islamic economic ! Don't you see !. That is only one part of Islamic teaching and there are lots of area Islam have provide the solutions; Munakahat/perkahwinan/Marriage, Muamalat/Economic, Jinayat/Law and others. I strongly beleived that one day non muslim can realize that Islamic law is the best law to protect human kind in this world as they start realizing now that islamic economic is the best solution to combat the recession !! Wait and see..... Sorry my English not Good.

Zaki said...

Salam brother TB,

What I've always wondered is who is/are RPK religious teachers/advisors? He has said before that he is close to TG Hadi, Mustafa Ali etc. Why is he then writing like a loose-canon?

I can understand the frustation of years and years observing injustices and malpractices in the society. But that is not an excuse for having this very dangerous and cynical view about Islam especially when you know you have a large number of readers/followers.

I agree with you, ISA is not be used against RPK. But he needs to be put in his place (as far as his knowledge in Islam is concern). Please do consider inviting him for a public forum (not a debate which has negative connotation that it's all about winning the argument). A forum is to discuss and clarify with good words, wisdom and maturity.

Allahu'alam.

Anonymous said...

sebenarnya apa yang diutarakan oleh RPK adalah suatu yang rasional dan lebih kapada universal dan tidak melampaui batas2 tauhid yang membawa kapada syirik dan tahayul.Malaysia Waves perlu mendekati Islam secara lebih liberal agar kita tidak terus mengulas ulasan orang lain secara Islamik.Sesungguhnya Islam ini adalah milik semua.Terserahlah kapada individu untuk menterjemahkannya mengikut natijah kebenaran yang diusulkan oleh ulamak yang muktabar lagi mursyid

Anonymous said...

Salam,

"O Prophet! Tell your wives and your daughters and the women of believers to draw their veils all over their bodies. That will be better, that they should be known so as not to be annoyed." (Al-Qur'an, 33:59)

Refer also to 24:31.

Allah knows all.

Anonymous said...

TB,

Are you being paid by UMNO to write all kinds of comments to run down RPK since he is gaining a lot of sympathy and support because of his strong opposition to ISA ? I believe you are

Anonymous said...

Please do not post this here
"I strongly beleived that one day non muslim can realize that Islamic law is the best law to protect human kind in this world as they start realizing now that islamic economic is the best solution to combat the recession !! Wait and see..... "

I hear the same thing said by people from other religions. Its equal to once the white man saying he is superior to Asians. All religions advocate the good. You are advocating your ignorance.

When people who talk like you they reflect their ignorance. Abdul Kalam of India was the president of the Hindu Majority India. He was well respected by all the people.

Yet some muslims were ubhappy that he accepts the Bhagavat Gita which he has read as well as the Quaran. By accepting somebody else religous belief, you are actually showing your religion is superior because you know what your religion tells and you know what their religion tells. However he is a muslim as always and probabily is an undeering example like Obama of someone from a backward community from tamil speaking province of tamilnadu can become the head of their space and rocket reseach and finally go on to become president.

The best part in a country where corruption is rife, his brothers complain that he never dishes out special favours to them. How much more can a muslim show the world that the beauty of his religion, yet there are some muslims who dislike him.

The best joke is that it was done when BJP a hindu right wing party like PAS in Malaysia for Isam were in power. Though I do not like PAS policies, i am not against them. Unlike UMNO its not a hypocrite that uses wrondoings and hide behind religion to threaten the non muslims.

Anonymous said...

I don't think what RPK had stated in that article were premeditated or intentional lies.

What he had stated may be imprecise truths which need to be substantiated with more evidence. In an article in such situation it is not practical to go into details.

However, what is most critical is the critical guiding principles inherent in a person.

From what i have read of RPK's articles, whilst he may had strayed at times, the essence of his thoughts are guided by the 'Golden Rules' and other unselfish non-partisan positive human values.

The most dangerous drives in a person are those that claim, 'mine is the only superior way' and that is driven by deadly emotional fears.

AnonA

Anonymous said...

"His readers mostly non-muslim believed him so much because of the hatred against the Malay race"

This type of statement is the result of the success in the brainwashing of some malays by the BTN propaganda campaign by UMNO to instill fear and disunity among the citizens in this country for their political survival. Please have some intelligence. People don't hate the malay race! People are fed up with the continuing affirmative discriminating policies in this country by the UMNO politicians in the disguise of protecting the poor malays. People don't object to the government in helping the poor malays to improve on their economic competitiveness. The displeasure of others has nothing to do with the malay race. It is all about fair and equal treatment to face the challenges and competition in the global world. In any case, since the issue here touch on Islam, is it true that Islam doesn't promote people to proclaim supremacy against others and that Islam promote fairness and equality to all human being. Also does Islam promote the idea to call all others as Enemy of Islam?

Bukit Chandan said...

Well done, TB.

As long as RPK does not seek treatment for the sorcery done on him by Dr Mahathir, he will be forever confused on Islam. All his writings on Islam will be distorted.

So, we strongly urge everybody in Malaysia and the World to be wary of all RPK's writings on Islam. Do not take them on face value. Consult the Islamic Scholars.

We do not want to indulge ourselves with anyone who does not want to listen to the truth.

Best Regards.........

siewkhim said...

All of you are just bullshiters trying to gain attention. RPK is entitled to his views and does not mean he is lying.

I would prefer tulang besi to speak to RPK in confident and correct his views instead of publishing them. This is a form of an attack. Are you being paid by UMNO to do this?

Anonymous said...

Sorry !i read and reread your reasonings on RPK but sad to tell you it SUCKS !
You remind me of that PKR guy who almost wreck havoc on the Bar Council meeting who play God, who thinks he is God and acted like God.
It looks to me you as a professed muslim cannot see eye to eye on others reasoning.The crux of it is you see others are wrong and you are right always.
Look all religions have its faults in other people's eyes be it Islam or others.The arab muslims and the muslims here are so different.The Arabs in ARABIA says the muslims here like to APE them in nearly everything from attire to the gates of heaven.praying in arabic has more values than our local national language.Can you beat that?
RPK was pointing something stimulating for us to ponder? He did not meant to redicule the muslims but why in the name of Islam is such injustices being preferred by the muslims themselves.Is it self serving or in the name of GOD ?
Give RPK a chance to explain and not shoot him down.
To me a good muslim listen carefully with his two ears but understands why he has one mouth.

Anonymous said...

Is it RPK or his geng @ Sri Perdana spreading k0k n bull stuff on islam ? ..the cerita this time gives an impression that muslim,their philosphy and muslim in general r chaotic,nuts, and the religion itself has failed to uplift people,nation,etc etc..let RPK berbuih buihlah..got mouth can talk waaaaaaaat...:-)

Anonymous said...

Hey "Here comes" Johhny Utah(boy i love jack nixcholson hehe)...
Hi buddy..can u quote me a verse from the bible which says woman musnt wear bra?;-)..these wonderful european n uncle sams r remarkable race ..they have buthcherd natives in the americas,responsble for world war horrors,denied right to women n colored people for centuries,they plundered n slaved "others'..yet dis bummers plus dungus mat salleh r's lickers think european barbarism is hip..lol!!!

Anonymous said...

Both RPK & TulangBesi are are advocating the opposite end of the spectrum.

If only the world can come to the middle ground & work things out for the good of mankind.

I'll only believe it happening when both Sunni & Shia stop killing each other.

Daniel said...

It looks to me that you are the one trying to mislead the readers of this blog.

Just one example, RPK has repeated many times that wearing a tudung is not an instruction given by Allah. It's merely written into the Qur'an by Mohamad's students.

He substantiated this claim by the story of how Mohamad's wife were lost in the desert, and because of the tudung someone managed to identify her and brought her back to Mohamad. But all you have is... it's in the Qur'an (you didn't even say that, some other readers said it for you).

This is as good (or bad?) as Nik Aziz saying fatwa is from god, so we shouldn't question fatwa whereas fatwa council is headed by some... ahem... human beings.

Tulang Besi said...

Anonymous said...

What about all those suicide bombers who kill countless others and die in the name of the Islamic God? What about Hamas and Fatah killing one another in the Gaza Strip? Is it all for power and glory? Justice?

veritas

REPLY: Dear Veritas,

Firstly, suicide bombings in Palestine is committed by both Muslim and Christian Palestinians alike.

when u see your entire family turned to dust by Israeli American-made bombs, you would commit suicide bombings too.

" If I saw my father being gunned down in front of my eyes, i'd be carrying a gun too, except I wont be wearing a badge"

Fatah is an Israeli agent. Most of Fatah's leaders are under Mossad's payroll.

It's like what Harisson Ford said in the movie "The Devil's Own":

When Hamas took over Gaza, they unearthed stacks of documents proving beyond all doubts that Fath is in bed with the Mossad.

Tulang Besi said...

Dear Siewkhim,

I have proven beyond all doubt that RPK lied about Islam.

It's not a matter of views anymore when you present something contradictory to known facts.

Tulang Besi said...

Dear Anon November 19, 2008 1:48 PM,

Please don't just tell me that my argument sucks.

Please tell me where my argument is factually wrong?

TQ

kopitiam said...

different views on interpretation does not constitute lies. Different mazhab have different interpretation too and that doesnt mean the other lies. I agree with some of RPK postings and i disagree with some but I dont call him a liar just becos we differ in interpretation.

Just like the Verse where it purportedly decrees wearing hijab. My interpretation is different. The key word there is to cover your body.

Anonymous said...

Anonnymous,

How about this?

033.059
YUSUFALI: O Prophet! Tell thy wives and daughters, and the believing women, that they should cast their outer garments over their persons (when abroad): that is most convenient, that they should be known (as such) and not molested. And Allah is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful.

PICKTHAL: O Prophet! Tell thy wives and thy daughters and the women of the believers to draw their cloaks close round them (when they go abroad). That will be better, so that they may be recognised and not annoyed. Allah is ever Forgiving, Merciful.

SHAKIR: O Prophet! say to your wives and your daughters and the women of the believers that they let down upon them their over-garments; this will be more proper, that they may be known, and thus they will not be given trouble; and Allah is Forgiving, Merciful.

I don't see the word "veil", do you? The word veil does appear anywhere in the Quran.

Tulang Besi said...

Daniel says:

Just one example, RPK has repeated many times that wearing a tudung is not an instruction given by Allah. It's merely written into the Qur'an by Mohamad's students.

He substantiated this claim by the story of how Mohamad's wife were lost in the desert, and because of the tudung someone managed to identify her and brought her back to Mohamad. But all you have is... it's in the Qur'an (you didn't even say that, some other readers said it for you).
"

REPLY: You fell for another of RPK's lies.

The story RPK quoted above is unsubstantiated. The story as quoted by Bukhari and Muslim states that the Companion who rescued Aisya recognized her from her looks not by the fact she wears her headdress.

So, RPK is caught lying again.

Tulang Besi said...

Anon November 19, 2008 5:07 PM says:


I don't see the word "veil", do you? The word veil does appear anywhere in the Quran.

REPLY: The word used is AL KHIMAR which means "Head Cover".

Don't use the English Translation to interpret the Quran.

Tulang Besi said...

kopitiam said...

different views on interpretation does not constitute lies. Different mazhab have different interpretation too and that doesnt mean the other lies. I agree with some of RPK postings and i disagree with some but I dont call him a liar just becos we differ in interpretation.

REPLY: No, RPK presented things which contradicts known facts.

Therefore, it constitute a lie.

Anonymous said...

This applies to only wanita yang beriman! Katakanlah kepada wanita yang beriman: "Hendaklah mereka menahan pandangannya, dan memelihara kemaluannya, dan janganlah mereka menampakkan perhiasannya, kecuali yang (biasa) nampak daripadanya. Dan hendaklah mereka menutupkan kain kudung ke dadanya, dan janganlah menampakkan perhiasannya, kecuali kepada suami mereka, atau ayah mereka, atau ayah suami mereka, atau putra-putra mereka, atau putra-putra suami mereka, atau saudara-saudara laki-laki mereka, atau putra-putra saudara laki-laki mereka, atau putra-putra saudara perempuan mereka, atau wanita-wanita Islam, atau budak-budak yang mereka miliki, atau pelayan-pelayan laki-laki yang tidak mempunyai keinginan (terhadap wanita) atau anak-anak yang belum mengerti tentang aurat wanita. Dan janganlah mereka memukulkan kakinya agar diketahui perhiasan yang mereka sembunyikan. Dan bertobatlah kamu sekalian kepada Allah, hai orang-orang yang beriman supaya kamu beruntung.

Anonymous said...

TB,

Since you are so particular with tudung, I am interested to hear your comment and opinion about the fatwa council, the fatwa(s) issued by them, about tomboy, and then about the much-talked-about-but-not-yet-issued fatwa on yoga. Are they lying when they say that being tomboy is against islam? Are they lying when they say that doing yoga is against islam?

Anonymous said...

TB answers are short & concise. These 'liberals' who tried to defend RPK for their own sake ignorance & blind devotion to liberalism just got pawned hands down.

haha

Anonymous said...

Like most of you I, too like to read RPK's malaysia-today. But his writing about Islam is very misleading I would say. He claims as being a devoted muslim but he wrote things that put the readers in doubt over the greatness of Islam. He himself is not being Islamic physically. I mean look at the way he behaves, the way he raises his wife and children against Islamic teaching.He attends parties with liquor, he defends his wife and children for not wearing tudungs,he even offered beer to his readers once, I forgot the article but I did remember reading him stating the offer.

So now, whatever he writes about Islam, I just skip. I don't believe in this man. His writing is dangerous,remember the saying, the tip of the pen is sharper than the blade of sword!

zorro tua said...

I can see so many RPK's fans overhere who reads most of his articles using only logic and critical thinking based on what they know. Although in most cases this method can lead to brilliant discussion and argument, but unfortunately not everything can be interpreted by mind alone. Because clearly there is a limit where these clever mind can take you to, even if you have complete knowledge of the pertaining matter.

One that falls under this category is ISLAM. Although there are loads of things in the Islamic teaching that can be reasoned with, but there is some limited number of issues that only the believers can accept. This is the different between those who believe and those who dont. And we need to remember that no one had actually forced others believe this. Its up to you. But also remember it is also within our right to have this believe.

However it must be clear that Islam does not opposed to any critical thinking or argument in fact Muslims are urge to use their mind but within the boundaries. So how do we know these boundaries? You have to learn from known scholars who teaches what the Jumhur (majority) of Scholars have already agreed upon. Not only by reading a few books and searching the Internet what is Islam. You dont suddenly become an expert about something just because you think you know about it. Just because you have your appendics removed, it doesnt necessarily means that people can come to you for advice about surgery and medicine.

My sincere advice: Learn for only through learning one can acquire such knowledge and pray for guidance, because only GOD can bless you with the right understanding. "If Allah wants to favor someone, He grants him comprehension (understanding) of this religion." [Sahih Bukhari vol.1 # 71, Tirmidhi and Musnad Ahmad]

Anonymous said...

Dengan nama Allah Yang Maha Pengasih lagi Maha Penyayang

Muhkamaat, Mutasyaabihaat & Takwil

Muhkamaat -
yang tetap, tegas dan nyata maknanya serta jelas maksudnya
ayat-ayat Muhkamaat itu ialah ibu (atau pokok) isi Al-Quran

Mutasyaabihaat -
yang samar-samar, tidak terang maksudnya

Takwil –
tafsir maksudnya yang sebenar

Surah 3.

The Family Of 'Imran, The House Of 'Imran

7. He it is Who has sent down to thee the Book: In it are verses basic or fundamental (of established meaning); they are the foundation of the Book: others are allegorical. But those in whose hearts is perversity follow the part thereof that is allegorical, seeking discord, and searching for its hidden meanings, but no one knows its hidden meanings except Allah. And those who are firmly grounded in knowledge say: "We believe in the Book; the whole of it is from our Lord:" and none will grasp the Message except men of understanding.

7 Dialah yang menurunkan kepadamu (wahai Muhammad) Kitab Suci Al-Quran. Sebahagian besar dari Al-Quran itu ialah ayat-ayat "Muhkamaat" (yang tetap, tegas dan nyata maknanya serta jelas maksudnya); ayat-ayat Muhkamaat itu ialah ibu (atau pokok) isi Al-Quran dan yang lain lagi ialah ayat-ayat "Mutasyaabihaat" (yang samar-samar, tidak terang maksudnya). Oleh sebab itu (timbulah faham yang berlainan menurut kandungan hati masing-masing) adapun orang-orang yang ada dalam hatinya kecenderungan ke arah kesesatan, maka mereka selalu menurut apa yang samar-samar dari Al-Quran untuk mencari fitnah dan mencari-cari Takwilnya (memutarkan maksudnya menurut yang disukainya). Padahal tidak ada yang mengetahui Takwilnya (tafsir maksudnya yang sebenar) melainkan Allah dan orang-orang yang tetap teguh serta mendalam pengetahuannya dalam ilmu-ilmu agama, berkata: Kami beriman kepadanya, semuanya itu datangnya dari sisi Tuhan kami dan tiadalah yang mengambil pelajaran dan peringatan melainkan orang-orang yang berfikiran.

Anonymous said...

Dengan nama Allah Yang Maha Pengasih lagi Maha Penyayang
Surah An Nisaa’
150
Those who deny Allah and His apostles, and (those who) wish to separate Allah from His apostles, saying: "We believe in some but reject others": And (those who) wish to take a course midway,-
151
They are in truth (equally) unbelievers; and we have prepared for unbelievers a humiliating punishment.
150
Sesungguhnya orang-orang yang kufur ingkar kepada Allah dan Rasul-rasulNya, dan (orang-orang yang) hendak membeza-bezakan iman mereka di antara Allah dan Rasul-rasulNya dan (orang-orang yang) berkata: Kami beriman kepada setengah Rasul-rasul itu dan kufur ingkar kepada setengahnya yang lain, serta bertujuan hendak mengambil jalan lain antara iman dan kufur itu:
151 Mereka itulah orang-orang yang kafir dengan sebenar-benarnya dan Kami telah menyediakan bagi orang-orang kafir itu azab seksa yang menghina.

Anonymous said...

Manusia Jahat

1027.

Dari Abu Dzar r.a.katanya Rasulullah saw bersabda:
"Sepeninggalanku kelak,akan muncul suatu kaum yang pandai membaca Qur'an tetapi tidak melewati kerongkongan mereka (hanya sekadar baca saja). Mereka keluar dari agama, saperti anak panah keluar dari busurnya, di mana mereka tidak pernah lagi kembali ke dalam agama itu. Mereka itu ada lah sejahat-jahat makhluk dan tingkah laku mereka".

- Terjemah hadis Shahih Muslim oleh Ma'mur Daud

Anonymous said...

82. Berita yang mengacaukan

Dari Hudzaifah r.a. katanya Rasulullah saw, bersabda:

"Tidak dapat masuk syurga, orang-orang yang menyiar-nyiarkan berita untuk mengacau".

- terjemahan Hadis Shahih Muslim oleh Ma'mur Daud

Anonymous said...

2004 Berpakaian tetapi bertelanjang

Dari Abu Hurairah r.a. katanya Rasulullah saw bersabda:

"Ada dua macam penduduk neraka yang keduanya belum kelihatan olehku. (1) Kaum yang memiliki cambuk saperti ekor sapi, yang di pergunakannya untuk memukul orang. (2) Wanita-wanita berpakaian, tetapi sama juga dengan bertelanjang (kerana pakaiannya telalu minim, terlalu tipis atau tembus pandang, terlalu ketat,atau pakaian yang merangsang pria kerana sebahagian auratnya terbuka), dan wanita-wanita yang mudah dirayu atau suka merayu, rambut mereka (disasak) bagaikan punuk unta. Wanita-wanita tersebut tidak dapat masuk surga, bahkan tidak dapat mencium bau surga. Padahal bau surga dapat tercium dari jarak yang sangat jauh".

- Terjemahan Hadis Shahih Muslim oleh Ma'mur Daud

Anonymous said...

Wahai wanita -wanita islam,

Lu pikir la sendiri! The ball is in your hand. Don't go around and around beating around the bush! Ini perintah Allah, bukan undang -undang buatan manusia ada faham!

quinnylover said...

Assalamualaikum Tulang Besi,

After reading your arguments in rebutting RPK's article, I have come to realize that the two of you are looking at 1 issue from two totally different angles.
From my understanding, from reading between the lines and the mood of RPK's article, I can assume that his opposition to an Islamic state is due to the fact that a system can only be successful if, and only if, there competent men and women running the system.
And same holds true for Islamic state.
As much as I long for the fairness of Khalifah Umar Abd Aziz in this modern era, the success of the system implemented during his time all boiled down to the fact that the Umayyah government back then had a very strong leader in Umar that is very committed to ensuring the success of the system.
The point is, the success of a system, be it Islamic state or secular state or theological state, all depends on the people running it. Its the human factor that determines in the end.
With all the goodwill and trust on the Islamic state, it is not a magic silver bullet that can solve all of our problems.
Yes, by all means I will support an Islamic state. The system is good, the rules are fair. To say as what RPK said that Islamic state would not work is simplistic and unfair. But a clear explanation that Allah will not run the government if there is an Islamic state is also needed.
Allah has even assured us that He will not change the fate of a people unless they as a people work towards changing it themselves. And also the concept of tawakkal that asks us to leave to Allah only after all efforts have been done. So the gist of it all is that we, as humans, are to do all in our power to change our fate as a people before we leave things to Allah. That includes having strong, competent, fair, takwa leaders that are committed in ensuring the success of the Islamic state.
Do we have that currently? Sadly no. To have an Islamic state without competent people running it is like reading the Quran but ignoring the tajwid and such.
But should we aspire for an islamic state - yes we should. That includes creating an environment that will produce leaders necessary in ensuring the success of an Islamic state in the future.

Feizrul Nor
Seri Kembangan, Selangor

Anonymous said...

This is what Isa taught: "Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you... Love your enemies, do good to those who hate you, bless those who curse you, pray for those who mistreat you...Do to others as you would have them do to you."
Peace

Anonymous said...

This is what Isa also taught: "Be careful not to do your 'acts of righteousness' before men, to be seen by them... Give to the needy in secret,... pray ..in secret..., fast... in a way that it will not be obvious to men that you are fasting, but only to your Father, who is unseen; and your Father who sees what is done in secret, will reward you."
"The Lord does not look at the things man looks at. Man looks at the outward appearance, but the Lord looks at the heart."
Peace

Anonymous said...

Anonymous said...

This is what Isa taught: "Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you... Love your enemies, do good to those who hate you, bless those who curse you, pray for those who mistreat you...Do to others as you would have them do to you."
Peace
November 20, 2008 12:45 PM
Anonymous said...

This is what Isa also taught: "Be careful not to do your 'acts of righteousness' before men, to be seen by them... Give to the needy in secret,... pray ..in secret..., fast... in a way that it will not be obvious to men that you are fasting, but only to your Father, who is unseen; and your Father who sees what is done in secret, will reward you."
"The Lord does not look at the things man looks at. Man looks at the outward appearance, but the Lord looks at the heart."
Peace
----------------------------------


...so follow Isa or Saul?

Anonymous said...

Salam Sejahtera Saudara Tulang Besi.
Terima kasih daun keladi
kalau bolih jawab RPK lagi.
Sesunggohnya musim mengherdikiIslam bertubi tubi.
Anda adalah pahlawan kami sejati.
Terus kan jawab pencaci.
Memang anda setanding dengan
orang bersifat orentlisasi.
Terima kasih daun keladi dari semua pembaca Musleem dan Mukmeen.
arjuna waspada.

Anonymous said...

Dear TB
From what I read, I don't see RPK lying about islam. I think he is just looking at things from a broader perspective. Another question I have is why are kids taught to hate non-muslims and to call others kaffirs. I know this because my close muslim friends told me that their children were taught this by their religious teachers. They told me that they are very sad that things like these are happening coz it will cause disunity among muslims and non-muslims.

To the one who says non-Malays hate Malays :
This is also not true. I am a non-Malay. I don't hate the Malays and I also know many of my non-Malay friends who don't hate the Malays. You have been brainwashed by UMNO.

Wong said...

Quote:
Dear Siewkhim,

I have proven beyond all doubt that RPK lied about Islam.

It's not a matter of views anymore when you present something contradictory to known facts.
------------------------------------

Known fact: Sunnis and Shia's are blowing themselves up in mosques hoping to kill each other. If not in the name of Islam, in what name?

Wong said...

Quote:

He attends parties with liquor, he defends his wife and children for not wearing tudungs,he even offered beer to his readers once, I forgot the article but I did remember reading him stating the offer.
-----------------
Dear Anonymous,

So you are saying that 'not wearing the tudung' is extremely unislamic and women must wear it otherwise they are disobeying god, and are an insult Islam.

Do we see his daughters and wife commiting indecent acts of adultery, stealing and other various crimes?

So you would happily have a tudung clad woman committing crimes. :)

----
Other issue

What we have here is a man who respects other people's beliefs and religions. He also expects Muslims to adhere to their faith and thus reject liquor and alcohol when offered, or prohibit themselves from taking alcohol even when nobody is offering them. So would you say it is absolutely impossible for a Muslim to attend parties with liquor because they will just lose control?

Just like the recent fatwa on yoga, I feel sorry for you Muslims whom religious superiors feel that you all cannot be trusted to adhere to your faith.

Not that a lot of you had a choice, once born into it, there is little opportunity to convert out of your faith.

Pull Tea said...

TB,
I'm non-Muslim and RPk's articles have given me a positive outlook in Islam...being a fair and just religion and as any other religion, men tend to manipulate to their own benefit and gave those religions a bad name.
RPK's article merely mentioned that others tend to be too judgemental on how a person dresses. Recent years how/what Muslim women wear(which includes school uniform) have been given much emphasis and we often heard Muslim women were force to wear tudung due to peer pressure and are afraid of being alienated by their friends/colleagues if they did not follow the dress code. Wearing tudung is important but a person conduct/behaviour is even more so. A book should not be judged by its cover. In summary he is emphasising the importance of substance rather than name or outlook. Like he said.."Names are not crucial"

Tulang Besi said...

Dear Pull Tea,

I've proven in my rebuttals to RPK's article that his attacks are not just directed to men, but also the teachings of Islam it self.

Not to mention countless misgivings against the history of Islam he commits without any guilt at all.

Anonymous said...

I'm not entirely sure that I agree with your statement about the millions of dead, to say that it was "never" done in the name of Islam is to be frank a little bit too broad to substantiate. Can you prove that of the millions of people massacred in these nations that "never" once did somebody kill another person because they thought it was their duty as a Muslim? Can you interview each and every one of these people, who often belong to extremist religious islamic groups and find out for absolutely certain that they "never" did it in the name of Islam??? If only one person in the world killed somebody in the name of Islam then I'm sad to say your whole argument collapses.

I'm just pointing this out as a means of saying that every argument has its flaws, every single argument in the world is open to interpretation and misunderstanding. It's far too easy for people to get instantly angry whenever the words "islam", "moslem" or "allah" are brought up in an argument that may seem to be derogatory. People in Malaysia seem to instantly get their backs up when Islam is brought up, almost as if they are expecting to be attacked and slandered, to the point where they are so willing to see an attack that they are blinded to the possibilities of looking deeper into their faith.

To me it would seem that the strongest convictions of faith (in any religion) can only be strengthened and deepened through asking questions, through exploration, rather than instant dismissal of what may seem to be an attack. Is it not better for a believer to know why they believe, and to be believe truly and deeply because they have been asked "why this, what is that about"?.

I understand that it is a sensitive issue, and that RPK should be aware that his blog is widely read, thus should provide a basis of fact for each statement, especially relating to Islam and Muslims, but to denounce him as a non-believer is just too easy a trap to fall in to. If you want to enter into debate on such matters then you should always rise above the instant feelings of anger, for by following anger and affront then you also fall into the trap of not providing enough basis for your retort, which makes you as incorrect as him.

In defense of his writing, I will only say that by posing such awkward questions it gives a non-muslim, such as myself, the opportunity to discover more about your nobel religion. Is it a bad thing to help promote an open discussion, that promotes awareness of Islam to non-muslims and also helps strengthen conviction of faith amongst muslim people? I don't know if you would agree with that.

If you feel this comment could land me and you in trouble then please do not post it. I like your blog, as I enjoy Malaysia Today. I am trying to learn more about Islam and the Malay race, having different opinions helps me a lot.
All the best

Anonymous said...

.....I like your blog, as I enjoy Malaysia Today. I am trying to learn more about Islam and the Malay race, having different opinions helps me a lot.

WELCOME ABOARD. RPK IS NO DOUBT A WELL READ INDIVIDUAL. PLEASE FEEL FREE ALSO TO VISIT SOME CREDIBLE BLOGS TO UNDERSTAND ISLAM BETTER.

http://www.freewebs.com/usrah

http://www.islamreligion.com

http://www.answering-christianity.com

..JUST TO NAME A FEW

Hardcore Malay said...

Yawwnnn...same shit, different day. Nothing will ever change...if we're in some other country, one of these guys or both would be shot dead already.

joshua said...

I think RPK is not against Islam since he himself is a Muslim but he is against Muslims who have the form but not the substance.

Like Islam, every other religion shares the same fate, so to speak, of having hypocrites.

joshua said...

I have a question. Why the top guys' wives seldom seen to be wearing tudung (even if they did, the tudung was 'lightly' worn) - Dr M's wife, PM's wife, DPM's wife...then we have the Umno Wanita - Rafidah...

Hmmm...if wearing tudung is the order of the day, then really women like Wan Azizah and her gorgeous daughter, Nurul are really good examples of women who should be leading the country. ;)

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