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Wednesday, December 24, 2008

CAUTION: MCA and BN Using The Hudud Issue to Break Up Pakatan Rakyat

I am seeing with my own eyes that NST and The Star is using the Hudud issue to the maximum. They want to play the issue up to strike fear factor among the Non Muslims, thus sowing seeds of doubt among Non Muslims voters of Pakatan Rakyat.
I also notice that minimum coverage is afforded by the Malay newspaper of the issue. This is understandable considering hudud is a good issue for PAS among the Malays. At the end of the day, the real reason why Hudud is not in practice in Malaysia is because of UMNO’s refusal to accord their full support.

The last time PAS and UMNO was united in pushing a program, it was the NEP. At that time, due to the united stand, the NEP was pushed through with relative ease. If UMNO wanted Hudud (aka Islamic Penal Code or IPC), their support would’ve ensured that.

Is Hudud A Real Issue for Non Muslims?


I fail to see how this issue is a bona fide issue for Non Muslims. Why??? Because the various shariah enactments approved in Kelantan and Terengganu states specifically that the Islamic Penal Code APPLIES ONLY TO MUSLIMS. Non Muslims are excluded altogether.

But, we look at how NST and The Star playing up the issue as if the law will be passed and applied to Non Muslims as well. Not one of the newspaper mentions the fact that the IPC will not be applied to Non Muslims.

Hudud (Islamic Penal Code) is Part of Islam Just Like Prayers and Fasting

Hudud (IPC) is never a political issue for Muslims. It is an obligation by all Muslims to be applied in their daily live as it is part of the Islam.

For Muslims demanding Islamic Penal Code is merely an act of demanding the right to practice their religion in it’s entirety. I believe all Non Muslims in this country are willing to respect the rights of Muslims to practice their religion completely.
Furthermore, the Islamic Penal Code has been in practiced in this land for the last 600 years preceeding the Malaysian Constitution. In fact, if it wasn’t for British Colonialism, the Islamic Penal Code will still be in practice here in Malaysia.

The British has a policy of changing existing Islamic laws of lands they conquered with their Common Law. As a result, they actually introduced more injustice and confusion into the Muslim community. For example, the Shariah has guaranteed inheritance to women for hundreds of years. But all this disappeared when the British came and replaced the Islamic Shariah with their Common Law.

The Islamic enactments we have today in Malaysia precedes our country’s constitution which means that it is not ultra-vires with our Constitution.

Islamic Penal Code Has Been in Practice for 1400 Years and Hasn't Ceased

Ever since the Islamic Penal Code has been enacted by The Prophet pbuh, it has never ceased from practice. It’s been 1400 years and yet until today it is still in practice.

In this day and age, we see various attempts by detractors to spread doubts about the law. But, in spite of all their efforts, the Muslims whose behind the law is in the majority. As we speak, the number of Muslims supporting Shariah and Islamic Penal Code is increasing.

This sole fact negates the notion that Islamic Penal Code is cruel and not in touch with time.

Some Twisted Accusations Against Islamic Penal Code

I shall try to highlight three most common accusations leveled against the Islamic Penal Code

1.0 IPC is barbaric and not in tune with time

REPLY: I agree considering the crime they are prescribed to is equally barbaric and cruel. I mean, adultery, fornication, intoxication, robbery etc are crimes practiced by barbarians.

The fact that modern men continue to practice them shows that elements of barbarianism still exists until now. Therefore, the “barbaric” punishment is still needed.

2.0 Islamic Penal Code is Unfair to Women

REPLY: So far, such accusation has remained a rhetoric. To date we are still waiting for hard evidence supporting this accusation

3.0 Islamic Penal Code Contradicts Human Rights

It's hard for this accusation to stand considering the existence of due process before sentence is passed.

How can human rights be violated when due process is given to those accused.
Plus all convictions are done without a shadow of doubt (not beyond any reasonable doubt).

Majority Of Muslim Detractors Against Islamic Penal Code Has Never Lived Under Islamic Penal Code

I dare make this statement. People like Sisters in Islam etc has never lived under rule of Islamic Penal Code.
I have experienced living under Islamic Penal Code for a lengthy period of time. Since I am not an adulterer, fornicator, thief, robber etc, I was never in trouble or effected.

In fact, life is peaceful and secured. You have one less worry in your mind. You don’t have to worry about the security of you life, your belongings, your family’s security etc. You basically live your life in tranquility and peace.
But when I came back to Malaysia, the first thing I read in the paper are reports on robbery, murder etc. Three days after I arrived in Malaysia, my friend’s office was robbed by 5 men with Parangs.

It’s funny that two weeks before I came back, two men was executed in public for the same crime. And robberies are like rare and very few in between and mostly committed by outsiders new to the country’s rule and regulations.

I also got to know that my aunty had her handbag snatched twice already in the last 3 months. This is the beauty of Common Law practiced in Malaysia. It benefits the criminals.

BN is Desperate. They Need to Break Up Pakatan Rakyat


Husam Musa said clearly that any move towards implementing the Islamic Penal Code (for Muslims only) will be done with the agreement of all parties in Pakatan Rakyat.
So what is the issue now? It will not be done unilaterally. It will be done with full consultation. But, it’s clear MCA and their talking heads like Wong Chun Wai needs to capitalize on this issue for their own survival.

But we should not allow them to benefit from this. This is an issue we can settle between us and we do not need outside hands from the BN to show us what is right.

Tulang Besi

66 comments:

Anonymous said...

kahkahkah..MCA,BN takut..apasai?So many involved in drugs,mafia style gangsterism,ah long 10 dua,prostitutian,illigal gambling.dll..march is nearing..attacks on pakatan will increase..only those who r otak udang gullible fools will buy BN's bullsh!t/propoganda..

Anonymous said...

Hudud offenses include: [2]

* Drinking alcohol (sharb al-khamr, شرب الخمر)

* Theft (sariqa, السرقة)

* Highway robbery (qat' al-tariq, قطع الطريق)

* Illegal sexual intercourse (zina', الزناء)

* False accusation of zina' (qadhf, القذف) [1][3]

* Rebellion against the ruler (sedition or high treason)

* Apostasy (irtidād or ridda, ارتداد) includes blasphemy.


Blasphemy in Islam constitutes speaking ill of God, of Muhammad, of any other prophet mentioned in the Qur'an, and of any the Biblical prophets (Jesus, Moses, Abraham, etc). The Qu'ran also implies that it is blasphemy to claim that Jesus Christ (the son of Mary) is the son of God.

Tulang Besi left out Rebellion and Apostasy.

He lies blatantly, just like his last post on "Islam prohibits the killing of any lives"

The acts of Rebellion and Apostasy. are very powerful weapons against both muslims and non-muslims.

More innocent muslims girls will be killed.

Thus, non-muslims will be inevitably oppressed, and reduced to dhimmittude.

Tulang Besi said...


Tulang Besi left out Rebellion and Apostasy.

He lies blatantly, just like his last post on "Islam prohibits the killing of any lives"


I never actually listed down ALL Hudud offenses, did I?

Who's the liar now, i wonder?

The acts of Rebellion and Apostasy. are very powerful weapons against both muslims and non-muslims.

How does Apostasy effects Non Muslims, may I ask?

As long as Non Muslims remain non muslims, how can they be effected by apostasy laws?

Apostasy applies only to MUSLIMS (i repeat, MUSLIMS) who changes their religion.

I think the concept is too high for you to understand.

As for rebellion, non muslims in a state will be subjected to a different laws than that prescribed for hudud.

In other words, non muslims committing high treason will be tried in a court different from their Muslim counterpart.

But then again, show me one country in this world that doesn't consider high treason as a punishable offence?

So do you understand this simple explanation, JB???

Didn't JB lied many times before this about Islam?

People like JB relies on lies to advance their ideology.

Tulang Besi said...

Apostasy = treason against God

Rebellion = treason against the state

Anonymous said...

Ever since the Islamic Penal Code has been enacted by The Prophet pbuh, it has never ceased from practice. It’s been 1400 years and yet until today it is still in practice.

OIC, but The Prophet was a human, so hudud is a man-made law.

Nik Aziz and you (mentioned somewhere) that it is God's law. If it is God's Law, God should appear and reconfirm it NOW since there is so much hoo..hah about it.

The fact is, there is no god in the first place.

There is nothing to be proud about the Hudud as any 15 years old can come up with such babaric punishments.

The most important point is to progress to higher standard of human values.

Serious Shepherd said...

"This is the beauty of Common Law practiced in Malaysia. It benefits the criminals."

You can ask Lelaki Kucing, Pramugara Terlampau and Mohd Abbas Danus Baksan (the guy who raped & murdered Nurul Huda Abdul Ghani) and many more.

Malaysia is a safe country - for the criminals of course.

Anonymous said...

TB: Apostasy = treason against God

Where's God?

Anonymous said...

heres a rap and question for TB
What will happen to music under hudud?

.................
music will be banned under shariah hudud

no mo' sounds in da neighbourhood

CDs, handfonz, vid gamez would

end up just like yoga, and dat ain't no good
................

can i be arrested if i listen to music? if i play music?

how about my ustaz friends who listen to music - abba, maikal jakson. Should i stop taking their religious advize?

music lover

Jed Yoong said...

Hi Tulang Besi

The MCA has no new ideas and can only rely on "SCARE THE Chinese about Islam", it seems.

"Is Hudud A Real Issue for Non Muslims?

I fail to see how this issue is a bona fide issue for Non Muslims. Why??? Because the various shariah enactments approved in Kelantan and Terengganu states specifically that the Islamic Penal Code APPLIES ONLY TO MUSLIMS. Non Muslims are excluded altogether."

Re this, there is still much ambiguity as there are MANY ways to implement Islamic law, whether hudud or the whole works.
It can be, as you suggest, through a system of segregation, already partly in existence as family and personal law for Muslims are regulated by Sharia courts.
However, there is another way to incorporate Islamic law that is via the Constitution, like in Egypt, Iran and Saudi where the Constitution states that the laws of the land are derived from the Quran, etc.
FOr me, I think it would be helpful for PAS to come up with their suggestions, hold more forums and educate the public about their intentions as to how they hope to implement Islamic law.
As a non-Muslim, you can argue that it doesn't concern me but as a Malaysian I too hope my fellow Muslim pals have a say on their judicial system. Hence, I proposed proper studies, discussion, education, etc and holding a national referendum (maybe a few times at different points) to get Malaysians' views before implementation.

I am truly disgusted at the Star's reportage on PAS and KElantan.

I will always remember the SHOCK that I felt when I went to KB and realised that the STAR has been painting a bias, bigoted picture all these years.

Tulang Besi said...


music will be banned under shariah hudud

no mo' sounds in da neighbourhood

CDs, handfonz, vid gamez would

end up just like yoga, and dat ain't no good


Sorry but music and video games doesn't fall under hudud.

So, no worries there.

Tulang Besi said...


OIC, but The Prophet was a human, so hudud is a man-made law.

Nik Aziz and you (mentioned somewhere) that it is God's law. If it is God's Law, God should appear and reconfirm it NOW since there is so much hoo..hah about it.


Actually Islam is REVEALED to Mohd because he is a Prophet SAW.

So it's not man-made

Anonymous said...

TB: So it's not man-made

1. We are certain there are hudud laws written in holy texts based on faith.

2. We are certain there are humans on Earth.

3. We are not certain, i.e. no proofs that god exists.


Logically and rationally what is more certain,

A - holy texts by man via faith
or
B - holy texts by god (no proofs)

Definitely A is more certain and surer than B.

Holy texts are man-made.

Anonymous said...

So anon, if you are so certain that there is no God, provide a proof.

slyderrose said...

Dah 50 tahun umno memerintah, rakyat Malaysia masih tidak dapat menerima Islam sebagai Ad din. Apa yg umno buat selama ini?. Hello tidor ke?. atau sibuk mencari dan menambah harta?. Sampai sekarang MCA masih tidak faham apa itu hudud. Kawan karib satu kapal tu. Kalau DAP, oklah baru berkawan dengan PAS. Memang mereka tak faham. kalau umno tak mampu, biarlah PAS take over federal government dan saya yakin PAS akan berkerja bersungguh-sungguh memberi penjelasan tentang Islam pada non-muslim, Insyaallah.

Anonymous said...

Anon 7:14 PM So anon, if you are so certain that there is no God, provide a proof.

If you are making a claim that it is God that order hudud punishments, etc. then it is by conventional rule that you provide proof. Otherwise how can you justify your claims.

Note this;
FREEHOLD, N.J. - A man who said God told him to kill and dismember his grandmother and ex-girlfriend was convicted yesterday of murder.
Rosario "Russell" Miraglia had testified that he was carrying out an order from God by killing his grandmother, Julia Miraglia, 88, and Leigh Martinez, 31, the mother of his young son, in June 2004.

Man said God told him to kill

Obviously he could not prove God existed and ordered him to do so, and he was convicted.

I have no problem providing you proofs that God do not exists. But that is secondary.

It is primary that you provide the proof to support your claim, a claim that infringes human rights and that is barbaric.
Such barbaric punishments could not have been from God, it must be from man.

If you insist, it was from God, then proof God exist first.

Anonymous said...

Edit>> If you insist it was from God, then prove God exists first.

Note i did not state i was so certain god does not exist. But nevertheless, i can still prove God existence is not tenable.

Bukit Chandan said...

These people are ignorant of Islam. To complicate matters, they act as if they understand Islam and will not admit to their biases, prejudices and ulterior motives.

They are not free and wise people actually.

Best Regards.........

Anonymous said...

so music is not banned in hudud.

music isnt haram? my peeps keep tellin me it is.

Anonymous said...

Why don't you just go prove that God do not exist.

In short simple sentence.

Like me, I'd like to say God exists because the flawless Quran exists. Scientific explanations and such are just to support that claim rather than to prove.

Some psycho killing his wife & kids cannot provide such a proof, can he?

Anonymous said...

Anon: 1:44 AM Like me, I'd like to say God exists because the flawless Quran exists.

Your thinking is clouded and messy here.

There are few issues in your assertion. They are;

1. Does God exist? – no proof
2. The Quran exists. – agree but is it from God or man?
3. The Quran is flawless? – very subjective
4. Quran is flawless so God exist - non sequitor.

The first 3 statements above are major issues themselves, very debatable and do not support your conclusion in 4.

You cannot substantiate the connection and validity of the 3 premises until you prove 1. God exists is true first.

To save you the trouble, why don't you study all the famous 'God exists' arguments that have been debated for 1000s of years to avoid presenting crude arguments like yours above.

Arguments for and against God's existence. Wiki

Btw, faith = beliefs without proof or reason. Check out any dictionary, e.g. Faith = no proof

You can try all you want, but beliefs of god based on faith is not provable.

Because god existence is not provable, the supposedly God's order or law cannot be imposed on men.
Whatever laws (e.g. hudud) is imposed on humans can only be man-made not God ordained.
Because it is man-made for barbaric times, it should be changed or eliminated to suit modern time.

Anonymous said...

Bukit Chandan said...
These people are ignorant of Islam.


You made the above narrow minded statement because you are ignorant of your own self and nature.

To you, your brain, mind and self is a pure 'black box' and you do not have a clue as to what is going on inside.

Those who take the trouble to understand more of themselves and introduce light inside their 'black box' will not make your sort of statement.

Btw, i am not against theism as I am aware it is a necessity for the majority. However theists should not try to be too grandiouse about their beliefs (merely based on faith) and 'elbow' others who do not share their beliefs.

Anonymous said...

if you all think that Al quran is a man made book, go learn arabic and write something that can challenge al quran

Anonymous said...

You said,
"Your thinking is clouded and messy here."

Clouded and messy to you, clearly.

So far you still haven't prove that God do not exist. I demand a straight answer not a counter argument.

I do not have the authority to proof the existence of God through man-made theories or precisely from secular peepholes. I believe if God needs imperfect creature such human to prove Himself then He is not a God afterall.

See, I am not trying to prove that God exists the same way you can prove hypothetical particles such as infinity, or the 4th dimension, or big bang. I am proving Him from Muslim point of view, since that is where we personally believe that the most accurate answer should be dig from.

So in short if you are going to tell the Muslim that God do not exist then you have to go through the trouble to refute the Quran.

Any other method will be hopeless.

Anonymous said...

Anonymous said...
The fact is, there is no god in the first place.
December 24, 2008 12:57 PM
--------------------

Dip your smart brain into a pail of cool water or a bathtub. Toilet bowl won't be so effective. Hold your breath, start chanting "the fact, there is no God in the first place" 1000x then come back and tell us whether you meet God or not. Surely you no fear water since you no fear God.

Anonymous said...

Anon: 12:13 AM
I do not have the authority to proof the existence of God through man-made theories or precisely from secular peepholes.


I am sure your supposedly all powerful God would have given you intelligence to think critically.

OK, if you cannot, those who are more well versed or higher up in your religious authority should be able to prove god exists.

For thousands of years, those who believe in god have attempted to prove god exists but have not been able to do so convincingly.

If there is no proof that god exists, which is the primary premise, then everything that follows in the religion is in doubt.

If doubtful, then believers should not be too arrogant or certain to impose laws on others, especially those that infringe on the rights of others and have negative effects to humanity.

Btw, i am not condemning those who believe based on faith (belief without reason).
I am only critical of those who rely on the name of god (non-existent) to infringe on the rights of others and condone violence.

Anonymous said...

Dip your smart brain into a pail of cool water or a bathtub. Toilet bowl won't be so effective. Hold your breath, start chanting "the fact, there is no God in the first place" 1000x then come back and tell us whether you meet God or not. Surely you no fear water since you no fear God.
December 26, 2008 7:14 AM


It is possible for a human to survive in water for more than 7 minutes and chant 1000x.

Would it be better for you to prove god exists by doing the above and chanting 'God help me survive" for one hour in a big pail of water.

Wonder why you are so worked up if you are confident your god exists. Argue logically, critically and rationally is the best approach.

Btw, i am not condemning your belief in god by faith on a personal and private basis.
You only need to prove when you insist and expect non-believers to agree with you.

Anonymous said...

See, I am not trying to prove that God exists the same way you can prove hypothetical particles such as infinity, or the 4th dimension, or big bang.

Infinity, 4th Dimension, big bang are not hihgly critical to the current science community. Any normal scientist would make a high provision of possible errors in these theories.

Since God is such a critical concept and it effects so many lives positively and especially where negatively, there should be at least some basic proofs that God exists based on empirical evidence.

The proof should be similar, to say, evidence available to show that bateria that cause disease exists. Long ago many diseases were blamed on 'unseen' bad spirits, the supernatural, etc. Now there is empirically evidence to prove that bateria exists and tests have show repeatedly that bateria cause specific diseases.

If you cannot prove god exist logically, rationally and critically, then the holy texts will only have personal credibility but not universal credibility or truths.

I am proving Him from Muslim point of view, since that is where we personally believe that the most accurate answer should be dig from. I have no problem with you proving god exists to yourself from your Muslim point of view for your own spiritual development. You can do what you like privately as long as there is no harm to others.

But if you insists that there is a god's law can be used to govern a country, to stone people to death, chop arms & legs for stealing, etc, then i would insist the existence of that god must be proven.

Anonymous said...

I am sure your supposedly all powerful God would have given you intelligence to think critically.

By this logic, are you implying that those who mentally incapable of critical thinking should not have a religion?
This is clearly false. See, religion is not based on critical thinking and logics. This is where science can never dismiss the complexity of religion.

Can you prove that killing an innocent man is wrong? No. If your wife is sleeping with another man how can you prove that such act is immoral? Such moral codes have long existed since men walks the earth, but could you say that adhering to such ancient moral codes is barbaric? No. But how did these moral codes ever come into existence and why must they still being followed since there is no scientific proof that not adhering to them is wrong?

Point is religion is not a subject that can simply be dismissed just because someone cannot prove that God exist. This is why someone can still have religion even when he cannot prove that God exist.

Regarding infringing the rights of others, I have yet to find any single argument to support this since the Hudud laws are non-spiritual towards the non-believers. And human right is a very wide & subjective subject. Mere lack of discipline & inadequacy to respect the local community is not an excuse to cry out the human right.

Btw I'm still waiting for the proof from you that God do not exist, if you really have any.

Anonymous said...

By this logic, are you implying that those who mentally incapable of critical thinking should not have a religion? I was not refering to others, but specifically you and your posts. You appear to capable of thinking critically, why not use it?

If you read my posts, I made a provision for all regardless of their intelligence.
I have deliberately repeated several times, you and anyone else can believe in whatever god and religion as long you do not impose on others.

Re human rights and infringing on the rights of others, there were already a lot of marginal cases where non-Muslims were bullied because Muslims insisted that they are relying god's law which cannot be changed. Re Lina Joys' and all those body snatching cases, the religious authority could exercise any compassion or empathy because they have to adher to god's law. There are many other similar cases where the rights of others are infringed around the world.

The need to that god exists is a good challenge to terrorists and suicide bombers. Terrorists should be educate and told not be violent and kill innocents for a god that is non-existence. All we need is to talk a bit of sense into them and assure them that they can continue to believe in god via faith.

This issue started because for TB, Apostasy = Treason against God.
So I asked him where is God, and does God exists. Isn't it cruel to kill somebody for treason against something that is non-existence.

A have a few ace cards on why God does not exist.
I have already mentioned one conceptual proof.
Belief in god is based on faith. Faith = belief without proof or reason.
As such there is no way you can logically prove god exists. Thus god does not exist.

The other proofs (not in Wiki) would need a bit more of critical thinking and a bit tedious.

Anonymous said...

Clearly the main issue is the implementation of Hudud law by the authorities and its implications upon Non-Muslims. To say that it has no effect upon Non-Muslims is not a truthful statement because it ignores the way government policies are made and interpreted in our country. RPK has illustrated this issue by referring to ISA where its original intentions were good and arguably remain good by has been badly misused by the authorities. See also NEP. TB please provide a holistic argument including potential implications for non-muslims rather than a whole hearted endorsement of Hudud.

Anonymous said...

edit.

Re Lina Joys' and all those body snatching cases, the religious authority could exercise any compassion or empathy because they have to adher to god's law.

Re Lina Joys' and all those body snatching cases, the religious authority could NOT even exercise any compassion or empathy because they have to adhere to god's law which cannot be changed.

Can you imagine how painful is it for anyone grieving for their spouse or relative.
On top of that these grieving humans are furthered tortured when the dead body of their spouse or relatives are snatched from them.
All these sufferings are based on some laws ordained by some God had not been proven to exists.

Tulang Besi said...

Anonymous Anonymous said...

Clearly the main issue is the implementation of Hudud law by the authorities and its implications upon Non-Muslims. To say that it has no effect upon Non-Muslims is not a truthful statement because it ignores the way government policies are made and interpreted in our country.


In the first place, Islamic laws has always been applied to Muslims in this country dating back to Melaka Sultanate time.

Secondly, some of the tension caused between religion in this country is the product of UMNO's implementation of the Islamic laws.

We don't find any problems of the sort in KElantan where PAS has ruled for 18 years.

IT was done for political expediency. Nothing more.

Anonymous said...

music is affected in kelantan, all kinds.

hey, is music haram?
tell me where does it stand
is it gonna be banned
when shariah is the law of the land?

Tulang Besi said...

music is affected in kelantan, all kinds.

hey, is music haram?
tell me where does it stand
is it gonna be banned
when shariah is the law of the land?


I thought what is banned in Kelantan is merely concerts not music?

even that banned have been lifted.

Oh and entertainment for non muslims are not effected.

Anonymous said...

Belief in god is based on faith. Faith = belief without proof or reason.

Dude, your supposedly proof is just a mere fallacy in literature point of view. It is not a concept, it's an opinion based on lack of explanation. Even that, it holds no water. One cannot prove something with a proof that is not provable. I can twist the phrase by saying that you have faith in faith. See how confusing that is?

Now a proof that can be provable is the Quran. Quran says there is God. Quran says it is the Word of God. Quran says God is All Knoweth. Now to prove this you have to find any flaw in the book that contradicts the divine nature of God that was described in Quran.

Don't shoot in the dark.

Anonymous said...

concerts, wayang, tarian
look what happened in kelantan
before you know malaysia cultural scene
be the same like afghanistan

btw, is music haram?
u keep saying non-muslims no problem
what about muslims
that like music

do you like music?
music is everywhere
where you gonna ban first?
ringtones, shopping center, video games, i can go on, and on, and on
because music is everwhere

think of a world with no music

Anonymous said...

Belief in god is based on faith. Faith = belief without proof or reason.

Anon 10:29 PM, Dude, your supposedly proof is just a mere fallacy in literature point of view.

I cannot understand your points. Note the following;

1. Faith =belief without proof or reason.
2. Belief in god is based on faith
3. Therefore belief in god is without proof or reason.
4. Since your belief in god is based on faith i.e. 'without proof or reason', there is no way you can prove god exists.
5. Based on 3 and 4, God do not exists based on the non-availability of proof or reason.

Note the definition of 'faith = belief without proof or reason' is universally accepted. Are you saying the dictionary are wrong? Dictionary can sometimes be not precise but can you explain or challenge the dictionaries. This meaning had been accepted for hundreds of years.

I am not placing 99% oonfidence on this conceptual proof via dictionary definition, maybe 75% which is sufficient to show that I am making some headway. I have other ace cards.

On the other hand you are unable to provide any rational proofs at all to demonstrate convincingly that your god exists.

Now a proof that can be provable is the Quran.

As i had stated earlier this is a very flimsy proof. Let me present your very messy and uncertain proof as follow.

1. Does God exist? – no proof
2. God talk to messenger -doubtful
3. Messenger comprehend god's message - doubtful
4. Messenger talk to man2 - error prone
5. Man2 talk to scribes - error prone
6. The Quran written (error prone) and exists. – agree but is it from God or man?
7. The Quran is flawless? – very subjective
8. Quran is flawless so God exist - non sequitor.

You just cannot jump to No.8 when you have not proven beyond reasonable doubt the truthfulness of 1 - 7.

No.1 is most critical, if you cannot prove god exists, the rest is doubtful.

Even IF No.1 is proven, you will need to prove the validity of the messenger's claim.

There is no way you can claim that god exists other than through self-deception.

Otherwise provide rational proofs to prove that god exists.
If you cannot provide proofs, don't impose and insist but just admit that you are believing in god based on faith and be humble.

When you rely on faith, you cannot expect the holy texts to be flawless.

Whatif said...

Very interesting discussion indeed. It is very difficult, if not impossible to prove the existence of God at this moment of time. Until God shows up, we could argue or discuss till the cows come home and still we could not come to any conclusion. It is therefore, advisable to take faith on a personal level; unto you your belief and unto me, mine.

Our best bet is to live our lives the best we could under the circumstances and try our best not to cause any hardship or suffering to anyone, irrespective of faith.

Whatever faith we choose to believe in, we have to ask ourselves the 'what if' question. What if our belief were not true, would our lives still be well-lived? Would our actions be still valid?

For Christians, have you ever ask yourselves what if, at the end of the day, Jesus were not the Son of God and there is no eternal life, would you still think that your lives would have been still well-lived? If the answer is yes, then you could safely go ahead and believe.

For Mr. Rahman, I would not ask what if Allah does not exist. I would just ask what if Allah did not pronounce punishment for apostasy, would imprisonment of a poor lady for non-belief be the right and appropriate thing to do? Being the loving husband and father of 2 daughters, I think Mr. Rahman will agree with me that it is not the right action to take.

But, as an enthusiastic defender of his faith, he has to do what he has to do, right? They cannot allow anyone of their flock to leave, lest others may follow. Thus, threats of rehabilitation, imprisonment and even death must be pronounced to prevent any possible exodus. The end justifies the means, right?

But Mr. Rahman must know that they are only treating the symptom and not the cause. And as long as the cause is not addressed, people like Mr. Rahman, would not be at peace with themselves.

And what is the cause? Well, I may talk about it at the next opportunity.

Selamat Hari Maal Hijrah to Mr. Rahman and to all Muslims.

Take care all.

Anonymous said...

You only need to prove when you insist and expect non-believers to agree with you.

December 26, 2008 9:31 AM
------------------------------

“If you can read this, I can prove God exists” by Perry Marshall

http://www.cosmicfingers.com

Anonymous said...

I have no problem providing you proofs that God do not exists. But that is secondary.

If you insist, it was from God, then proof God exist first.

December 24, 2008 10:15 PM
---------------
OK, if you cannot, those who are more well versed or higher up in your religious authority should be able to prove god exists.

For thousands of years, those who believe in god have attempted to prove god exists but have not been able to do so convincingly.

If there is no proof that god exists, which is the primary premise, then everything that follows in the religion is in doubt.

If doubtful, then believers should not be too arrogant or certain to impose laws on others,
December 26, 2008 9:17 AM
----------------------------

PROVING THE EXISTENCE OF ALLAH (SWT)TO AN ATHEIST
by Dr. Zakir Naik
CONGRATULATING AN ATHEIST


Normally, when I meet an atheist, the first thing I like to do is to congratulate him and say, " My special congratulations to you", because most of the people who believe in God are doing blind belief - he is a Christian, because his father is a Christian; he is a Hindu, because his father is a Hindu; the majority of the people in the world are blindly following the religion of their fathers. An atheist, on the other hand, even though he may belong to a religious family, uses his intellect to deny the existence of God; what ever concept or qualities of God he may have learnt in his religion may not seem to be logical to him.

My Muslim brothers may question me, "Zakir, why are you congratulating an atheist?" The reason that I am congratulating an atheist is because he agrees with the first part of the Shahada i.e. the Islamic Creed, ‘La ilaaha’ - meaning ‘there is no God’. So half my job is already done; now the only part left is ‘il lallah’ i.e. ‘BUT ALLAH’ which I shall do Insha Allah. With others (who are not atheists) I have to first remove from their minds the wrong concept of God they may have and then put the correct concept of one true God.

Please go to:

http://www.irf.net/irf/comparativereligion/index.htm

Anonymous said...

I have no problem providing you proofs that God do not exists. But that is secondary.

If you insist, it was from God, then proof God exist first.

December 24, 2008 10:15 PM
---------------
OK, if you cannot, those who are more well versed or higher up in your religious authority should be able to prove god exists.

For thousands of years, those who believe in god have attempted to prove god exists but have not been able to do so convincingly.

If there is no proof that god exists, which is the primary premise, then everything that follows in the religion is in doubt.

If doubtful, then believers should not be too arrogant or certain to impose laws on others,
December 26, 2008 9:17 AM
----------------------------

PROVING THE EXISTENCE OF ALLAH (SWT)TO AN ATHEIST
by Dr. Zakir Naik
CONGRATULATING AN ATHEIST


Normally, when I meet an atheist, the first thing I like to do is to congratulate him and say, " My special congratulations to you", because most of the people who believe in God are doing blind belief - he is a Christian, because his father is a Christian; he is a Hindu, because his father is a Hindu; the majority of the people in the world are blindly following the religion of their fathers. An atheist, on the other hand, even though he may belong to a religious family, uses his intellect to deny the existence of God; what ever concept or qualities of God he may have learnt in his religion may not seem to be logical to him.

My Muslim brothers may question me, "Zakir, why are you congratulating an atheist?" The reason that I am congratulating an atheist is because he agrees with the first part of the Shahada i.e. the Islamic Creed, ‘La ilaaha’ - meaning ‘there is no God’. So half my job is already done; now the only part left is ‘il lallah’ i.e. ‘BUT ALLAH’ which I shall do Insha Allah. With others (who are not atheists) I have to first remove from their minds the wrong concept of God they may have and then put the correct concept of one true God.

Please go to:

http://www.irf.net/irf/comparativereligion/index.htm

Anonymous said...

“If you can read this, I can prove God exists” by Perry Marshall
http://www.cosmicfingers.com
December 27, 2008 6:27 PM


Actual link is:
http://www.evolution.cosmicfingerprints.com/ifyoucanreadthis.htm

As a convenience here is one counter argument to the above which show that there are fundamental flaws in Perry Marshall argument.

http://necrofiles.blogspot.com/2008/03/dna-proves-existence-of-god.html

Note that, no matter how flowery or seeming sophisticated the argument to prove that god exists are, they can always be reduced to one of the fundamental arguments as listed in wiki and elsewhere.

Anonymous said...

Actual link is:
http://www.evolution.cosmicfingerprints.com/ifyoucanreadthis

post truncated, here the link

Perry Marshall's Link.

I would advise those who insist strongly that god exists absolutely to read up all the various arguments and counter arguments without being emotional and be very critical about them.

Anonymous said...

Whatif: I would just ask what if Allah did not pronounce punishment for apostasy, would imprisonment of a poor lady for non-belief be the right and appropriate thing to do? Being the loving husband and father of 2 daughters, I think Mr. Rahman will agree with me that it is not the right action to take.

I hope you will not be suprised to note that Mr.Rahman (from what i read of his previous posts) would have no hesistation in killing his 2 daughters, wife, father, mother any relatives if they( assuming all are Muslims) apostate from Islam.

To him, God's law must be obeyed at all costs. This is pathetic because the real reason is due to personal selfishness to save himself from his own terror and fears of death.

That is why i always quote Steven Weinberg's;

With or without religion, you would have good people doing good things and evil people doing evil things. But for good people to do evil things, that takes religion.

Religion is useful to relieve one of the fear of death.
Because religion is based on faith, there must be room for flexibility (not rigidly applied) when dealing with higher standards of human values in consideration of apostasy, hudud punishments, violence, etc.

Anonymous said...

Here is a real case of applying rigid god's law.

"After converting from Islam a few years ago, James had to flee from a father who wanted her killed for apostasy -- and from Austrian authorities who instead of protecting her, suggested she resolve the conflict by returning to Islam.

But when she renounced Islam, her father's verdict was clear. "He said, 'In two weeks you have to become a Muslim again or you're dead,'" says James, who fled to Germany, where she now lives under police protection."

Link

This is really cruel and all for the sake of something that is wrongly thought to exist when in fact God is non-existent.

Anonymous said...

i bet a million Ringgit these creatures are clueless self-centred brainless idiots, full of self-ego who think that the whole universe belongs to them.

Ask them if they understood besides life and death what soul or spirit means before they question or talk about God..

Go and play with you fellow kiddies.. What a waste of time!

Whatif said...

It is never a waste of time to engage Mr. Rahman in our attempt to reason things out with him. Though it could be very exasperating at times, we must continue to try understanding his points of view and perhaps seek solutions for the “extreme” views he takes.

His “strength” is his stubborn determination in fending off all arguments, no matter how ridiculous his replies could be to us. His other positive point I believe, is his fairness in allowing all comments through, no matter how critical they are of him.

Do not let his silly remarks fool us too. Actually, he is a smart fellow and he understands fully what we are driving at but he has no choice but to stick to his dogmatic stance. In this respect, we may be “barking up the wrong tree” as he has lamented some time ago on the apostasy issue.

Mr. Rahman, would it not be perfect if you could allow complete freedom of religion and yet be able to maintain the Muslim Ummah? You will then have peace of mind and a clear conscience, wouldn’t it be nice? With your intelligence, determination and your persistence, I have complete faith in you to drive for an Islamic Renaissance where all Muslims would follow Allah whole-heartedly without any coercion?

What about it, my friend?

Anonymous said...

If you insist, it was from God, then proof God exist first.

December 24, 2008 10:15 PM
--------------------------

The story below shows how weak an atheist feel’s after trying to battle Imam Abu Hanifa intellectually….

Imam Abu Hafina was asked by the khalifa to meet with them and an atheist so Imam Abu Hanifa could debate with him. They set a time for them to meet up. So the day and time came and left and they kept waiting for Imam Abu Hanifa until finally he came. Everyone questioned him about his being late and what happened. So he started explaining how there was river that he had to cross….and he was waiting for a boat to come and bring him on the other side of the river.

While he was waiting, the branches and leaves of the tree fell and slowly formed themselves into a boat. And he jumped in that boat crossed the river. Obviously ppl laughed at this story and the atheist asked him ‘Are you mad enough to believe that a boat was made all by itself?
Imam Abu Hanifa replied ‘Who is more mad? the one who believed that a boat was created by itself, or you who believes that the entire world is created by itself?’

http://www.chillyoislamyo.com/imam-abu-hanifa-vs-atheist/

Anonymous said...

Dialogue with the Atheists

After the ideological fight with polytheism, Islam stood up to the problem of atheism, although at a much lower scale. Given the fact that atheism was not then as widespread as polytheism, the campaign with which Islam faced the notion of atheism was very low key. This was because in the struggle with the polytheists, Islam had to contend with battling ideologies, viz. Islam and polytheism. What gave the battle that extra edge was the fact that polytheism was a way of life to the majority of members of society then. That ingrained tradition constituted and added hurdle to the norms Islam aspired to establish in that polytheistic society.

http://english.bayynat.org.lb/Doctrines/2.htm

Anonymous said...

God doesn't exist!
So you're convinced that God doesn't exist. Why do you think this way?
I just don't believe in God - I'm simply not convinced that God does exist. With all the bad in the world how can a kind and loving God be almighty and still be ruling over it?
So much wrong has been done in the name of God. God is an invention of human beings made to suit their needs, but he doesn't really exist!
The world is governed by mathematical laws - Not God.

Response to the Atheist Manifesto

http://www.islamic.org.uk/gde.html#Response%20to%20the%20Atheist%20Manifesto

Anonymous said...

I bet a million Ringgit these creatures are clueless self-centred brainless idiots, full of self-ego who think that the whole universe belongs to them.

Ask them if they understood besides life and death what soul or spirit means before they question or talk about God..


I'll take your bet anytime. Set up a site to offer your challenge of RM1 million. I am confident of winning.

If you are so sure of what is soul or spirit (in the supernatural sense)then you have the opportunity to win this real USD1,000,000 (apprx. RM3.4 million) bet.

USD1 Million Challenge

Note this is a serious challenge on the world stage, not a play-play one.

Beside Ali Sina is also offering a USD50,000 x 2 challenge as well.

Anonymous said...

Imam Abu Hanifa replied ‘Who is more mad? the one who believed that a boat was created by itself, or you who believes that the entire world is created by itself?’

aaiyahh.. this is the kindergarten standard teleological argument lah. It can be easily squashed.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Teleological_argument

Anonymous said...

USD1 Million Challenge

Note this is a serious challenge on the world stage, not a play-play one.

Beside Ali Sina is also offering a USD50,000 x 2 challenge as well.
December 28, 2008 1:53 PM
----------------------

Ali Sina again?

If you ever encounter any of Ali Sina’s goons on the internet looking for unwary Muslims to debate with, you should immediately direct them to this debate challenge and question them on why Ali Sina has ran away.

Ali Sina of FaithFreedom.org RUNS Away From Challenge to Debate Islam:

www.ExamineTheTruth.com vs. www.FaithFreedom.org

After suffering humiliating defeat after defeat, Ali Sina, as well as all of his goons on the FaithFreedom.org website have run way from this challenge to debate Islam. Some of FaithFreedom.org’s embarrassed supporters offered the excuse that Ali Sina is concerned about his safety, that is why he will not accept this public challenge for debate. However, Ali Sina knows very well that these debates can be done 100% anonymously using www.paltalk.com. In fact, palktalk.com allows us to invite thousands of people to attend the debate from all over the world. Therefore, we are left with no other conclusion other than Ali Sina is a coward and deceiver, and knows very well that he would be *exposed* very badly if he ever dares to publicly challenge the Islamic apologists. We are ready to set up this debate at anytime, please contact me at: Nadir@ExamineTheTruth.com

Anonymous said...

aaiyahh.. this is the kindergarten standard teleological argument lah. It can be easily squashed.

December 28, 2008 2:00 PM
----------------------

There's nothing wrong using kindergarten standard to any Islam basher. You don't have to bring along atheist leanings to insult Islam. An ulterior motive to discredit Islam. Be as sincere just like any kindergarten kids.

Anonymous said...

If you ever encounter any of Ali Sina’s goons on the internet looking for unwary Muslims to debate with, you should immediately direct them to this debate challenge and question them on why Ali Sina has ran away.

It is only your perception that Ali Sina ran away.
Previously i had followed most of Ali Sina debates with various people. In the early stages he was debating with any Tom, Dick and Harry that appeared.

After after a while of debating with various people, from experience, it is fair for Ali Sina to be selective to avoid wasting his time.

Ali Sina debated with Javed Ahmad Ghamidi, a VERY reputable Muslim from Pakistan, Javed Ahmad Ghamid
and he even praised Javed Ahmad Ghamidi for being a good Muslim.

Ali Sina made the following comments which i think is reasonable, i.e.

"Mr. Nadir Ahmad of examinethetruth.com had already his debate with me. http://www.faithfreedom.org/debates/NadirAhmed.htm
It is clear that this gentleman is not a scholar. There is no glory for me to bloody the nose of someone as insignificant as this person. Our debate is there for the world to see. That is as much as glory he gets. I am open to debate with real scholars of Islam but not with every Tom, Dick and Harry who wants to have his 15 minutes of fame by debating with me."

It would only be fair for Nadir Ahmed to build a reputation and credibility first before he challenge Ali Sina. It is just like boxing, a boxer must establish quite a number of wins before going for the higher rankings.

Ali Sina invited Zakir Naik to debate, but Zakir Naik declined.

If Ali Sina do not want to debate Nadir Ahmad, he still have another option. He can still go for the challenge by conving someone of higher authority in Islam to challenge Ali Sina. The introducer is entitled to USD50,000 as well.

When debating the truth, we cannot based on the normal debates of intellectual games by oral debates that rely of memory and wit. This sort of oral debates is limited. It is like taking an examination within a certain time frame in contrast to research findings based on experiments, testing and verifications.

Written open-book debates are the most effective means to get to the truth.

Complaining and cursing will not help you to debate the truths.
Nadir@ExamineTheTruth.com, if i were you, i will try different approaches to get to Ali Sina that is acceptable to him. The important thing is to get to the truths not winning debates based on memory, rhetorics and charisma.

If you think your points are very good, why not lend these points to someone reputable in the Islamic community and get him to debate Ali Sina.

Maybe you can convince the Grand Mufti of Eygpt or Saudi Arabia of your points against Ali Sina and get them to debate on your behalf. You can provide background support.

Anonymous said...

You don't have to bring along atheist leanings to insult Islam.

Your thinking is off tangent. That was not an insult to Islam.
I was referring specifically to the standard of argument used.

There are many higher standard of arguments used by various theists to argue for the existence of God's. One of them is the use of Modal Logic. The other is the ontological argument.
Despite their higher standard than the teleological argument, they are not rationally convincing to demonstrate that god exists.

If i had stated, Islam is this or that, then I am referring directly to Islam.

Anonymous said...

www.ExamineTheTruth.com vs. www.FaithFreedom.org


Ali Sina of FaithFreedom.org caught RED HANDED:

Ali Sina RUNS away from Challenge to debate Islam! New!

Another TEST for Ali Sina.

ALI SINA GONE WILD: caught in another terrible lie !

Ali Sina caught LYING again!!

Ali Sina caught in a atrocious LIE! Promised to shut down his site...

Anonymous said...

The Delusional Ali Sina
By Sami Zaatari
.....In fact to show why most rational intelligent people don't take you seriously is because of yourself, I shall let you illustrate it for us, I will simply quote this man and you will see why he is sick, and why no one intelligent takes him seriously as he writes:

they are experts in all sorts of illegal and unethical things such as cheating, lying and now hacking. When it comes to acting indecently they are the best.

He is referring to Muslims here, and then at the end he writes this:

We are awaiting the day to embrace you as a fellow human. We do our best to uproot all thorny weeds of hatred from your heart and plant the flowers of love in their place. You will like it too, because love is more beautiful than hate.

So you see why this fool is a joke and is not taken seriously? In a space of a few sentences the fool goes from insulting all Muslims, to going and talking about removing hate from Muslims and replacing it with love! Don't you just feel the love!

As I have always and continue to say, this man is mentally un-stable, he insults all Muslims, then claims we are the ones who hate, and that he is the one who loves. No Sina, it is you who has a rotten hate-filled heart and you know it, your hate for Muslims burns you so much, and everyday it eats at you because Muslims are not going anywhere, rather we are growing! So Ali it is you who needs to remove the thorns of hate from your rotten heart, and to replace it with pure faith, which is Islam, and then will you find happiness, you are a lost and angry soul, and what makes you more angry is that you cant blame Islam, because you are no longer a Muslim. Therefore it makes you so angry that even after you have left Islam that you still have no peace and happiness, which makes you so angry because it makes you realize Islam is not the problem, it is you who is the problem, and it is you who has the problem which needs to be fixed, and this problem can be fixed with a return to the true straight path of Islam, and only then will you truly find happiness and cure your hate filled rotten heart.

And Allah Knows Best!

www.muslim-responses.com

Anonymous said...

http://islamicapologetics.blogspot.com/2007/02/why-i-am-muslim-sliencing-false.html

....nothing but works of sick men’s dreams. Another alleged apostate is the perverted Iranian Idiot Ali Sina. This fool has so much venom and hatered for Islam he shamelessly tells lies about it left and right. When I first saw his site, I was surprised by how much hate and venom it has for Islam. They even have “testimonies” about people who “leave” Islam and magically happen to find Sina’s site and write their testimonies there. Most of those testimonies are so fake its not even funny, which I’ll get into in another article. The point is why leave Islam, when you know the punishment for that is death? Leaving Islam is only going to cause more problems, in this world and the hereafter. And not following a religion or a way of life is slowly going to lead to self destruction.

Anonymous said...

Ali Sina invited Zakir Naik to debate, but Zakir Naik declined.

If you think your points are very good, why not lend these points to someone reputable in the Islamic community and get him to debate Ali Sina.

Maybe you can convince the Grand Mufti of Eygpt or Saudi Arabia of your points against Ali Sina and get them to debate on your behalf. You can provide background support.

December 28, 2008 6:21 PM
--------------------------

Does Dr.Zakir Naik Really Fool the audience? Ali Sina (CURSED) is nothing but a pathetic infidel-fraud
www.answering-christianity.com/yahya_a...

CAUGHT RED HANDED: Ali Sina caught in a atrocious LIE.
http://www.examinethetruth.com/Challenge...

Sina also posted a letter in his website claiming to be sent to Dr. Zakir Naik inviting him for an open online debate. Mr. Sina received the information that Dr. Naik does not debate online but “rather in person “in “public view”. Dr. Naik's office said "There are hundreds of such Ali Sina who have requested Dr. Zakir Naik to debate with him to gain popularity.

Ali Sina (cursed) want an online debate. Just like a Web Chat.

Dr. Zakir wants a 'real' debate with at least 5000 people attending and live recording and stuff which the coward does not like.

If Ali Sina is so right he would come public with Dr Zakir Naik and have a debate with him. he might have death threats but nobody knows what he looks like so nobody will know its Ali Sina, and he come prove the religion is wrong and go on his way. Dr Zakir Naik is confident he is telling the truth that’s why he wants to debate face to face, rather than copy and paste things over the net. Ali Sina is so right why doesn’t he come forward and save the world, why doesn’t he save the universe is he is so confident he is right!! Zakir Naik does and that’s why 40,000 people in the US convert each year. Ali Sina hides behind his computer; hiding doesn’t work these days that’s why nobody cares who Ali Sina is.

http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20071129194354AAvhKS6

Anonymous said...

December 28, 2008 6:21 PM

If you think your points are very good, why not lend these points to someone reputable in the Islamic community and get him to debate Ali Sina.

Maybe you can convince the Grand Mufti of Eygpt or Saudi Arabia of your points against Ali Sina
--------------------------------
December 28, 2008 1:53 PM

USD1 Million Challenge
Note this is a serious challenge on the world stage, not a play-play one.

Beside Ali Sina is also offering a USD50,000 x 2 challenge as well.
--------------------------------
Grand Mufti of Egypt or Saudi Arabia vs Ali Sina debate?

and

USD1 Million Challenge?

http://www.topix.com/forum/religion/islam/T3DLERU269RGLC0UR

TRUTH: Mr Ali Sina is NOT a Ex- Muslim, His real name is Rabbai Sharon, He lives in Telavive in ISREAL so obviouesly he is a Born Brearded Jewish.
Few years ago Rabbi Sharon was charged of attempted RAPE of a 7 year old palestine GIRL,He was Arrested by the ISRAEL police, Rabbai Sharon (Ali Sina) was BAILED OUT, Soon after he fled to IRAN and changed his name to Ali Sina.He then continued with his false mis-quotes and false allegation about Islam, trying to mislead the Muslims and Non-muslims. Rabbai Ali Sina claims that he has Millions of followers, BUT the actual facts is he has only HAND-FUL OF PEOPLES following him.
Ali Sinna (Rabbai) TRUELY is a PEDOPHILE who tryed to RAPE A 7 YEAR OLD PALESTINE GIRL.
"Now Truth has come and Ali Sinna will FALL, Ali Sinna by its falsehood nature bound to FALL and PERISH.
---------------------------------
If you are the same Rabbai Sharon what raped that Palestinian girl, then I hope the same happens to your daughter. I remember this article and many other similiar to that, it was either in the 'Iton Tel Aviv' or 'Haaretz'.

Let me tell you all some truth about some of us, we Jews are among the most respected in the West, but some rotten apple's give us and our nation a bad name.

For example, I and most in Israel know for a fact that killing and raping a Palestinian is not seen as a crime in Israel.

It is very well known that countless 'trigger happy' army personnel target practice on little children playing 1 or 2 miles away from the border, this only became news after a UN member from Briton got shot in the head in Dec/2003 during a protest, he is still in coma - that military police was on trial after admitting being 'trigger happy'. No one in Israel has to this date been sentenced for killing or raping a Palestinian. So, that is why Rabbi Sharon aka Ali Sinna is a free man today.

If you are a follower of Ali Sinna, all I can say is don't follow him BLINDLY. If you do, then tell me what the difference is between you and others who follow other faiths blindly ? Ofcourse, I can see that some here will support Ali Sinna even if he was a pig.

Anonymous said...

If you are a follower of Ali Sinna, all I can say is don't follow him BLINDLY.

Thanks for your advice. As far as i am concern, I had always advocated thinking rationally, logically and critically on any issues. No 'BLINDLY' following business for me.

That is precisely how Ali Sina's debates and articles enable one to do, i.e. read and review highly contrasting opposing views from Muslims and non-Muslims. One should also read up various views on all major religions. It is up to us to be critical of what is presented.

Ali Sina did make mistakes and sometimes his comments tend to go overboard, bias and to the extreme. It is up to us again to use our critical thinking faculty to deliberate on the truthfulness of those ideas and ignore the irrelevant.

Generally views from believers tend to be emotionally bias. This is only natural especially where the belief is based on faith (without proof and reason). It would be unacceptable for a believer based on faith, to accept that there is something wrong in their holy texts.

Thus when studying religion and spirituality seriously, one should not be bias, but must read up on ALL possible opposing views of all religions and deliberate on them. Ali Sina's view is just one of the many opposing views.

Anonymous said...

Re human rights and infringing on the rights of others, there were already a lot of marginal cases where non-Muslims were bullied because Muslims insisted that they are relying god's law which cannot be changed. Re Lina Joys' and all those body snatching cases, the religious authority could exercise any compassion or empathy because they have to adher to god's law. There are many other similar cases where the rights of others are infringed around the world.
--------------------------------------------
Instant Death to Apostates (those who desert their religion) in the Bible's Old and New Testaments:

It is often believed that the Bible gives absolute religious freedom to everyone. Most of the Christians in the United States and the the West think that the freedom of choice and speech that they have comes originally from the Bible. Let's just see how accurate this myth really is.
In the Old Testament:
Deuteronomy 13:6-9 "If your very own brother, or your son or daughter, or the wife you love, or your closest friend secretly entices you, saying: Let us go and worship other gods (gods that neither you nor your fathers have known, gods of the peoples around you, whether near or far, from one end of the land to the other, or gods of other religions), do not yield to him or listen to him. Show him no pity. Do not spare him or shield him. You must certainly put him to death. Your hand must be the first in putting him to death, and then the hands of all the people."
Deuteronomy 17:3-5 "And he should go and worship other gods and bow down to them or to the sun or the moon or all the army of the heavens, .....and you must stone such one with stones and such one must die."
2 Chronicles 15:13 "All who would not seek the LORD, the God of Israel, were to be put to death, whether small or great, man or woman."

In the New Testament by Jesus and Paul:
Jesus:
Matthew 15:1-9
1 Then some Pharisees and teachers of the law came to Jesus from Jerusalem and asked,
2 "Why do your disciples break the tradition of the elders? They don't wash their hands before they eat!"
3 Jesus replied, "And why do you break the command of God for the sake of your tradition?
4 For God said, 'Honor your father and mother' and 'Anyone who curses his father or mother must be put to death.'
5 But you say that if a man says to his father or mother, 'Whatever help you might otherwise have received from me is a gift devoted to God,'
6he is not to 'honor his father' with it. Thus you nullify the word of God for the sake of your tradition.
7You hypocrites! Isaiah was right when he prophesied about you:
8 " 'These people honor me with their lips, but their hearts are far from me.
9 They worship me in vain; their teachings are but rules taught by men.'"
(Matthew 5:17-18)"
"Do not think that I [Jesus] have come to abolish the Law (the Old Testament) or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. I tell you the truth, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke or a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law (the Old Testament) until everything is accomplished.
(Matthew 23:1-3)"
"Then Jesus said to the crowds and to his disciples: 'The teachers of the law and the Pharisees sit in Moses' seat. So you must obey them and do everything they tell you. But do not do what they do, for they do not practice what they preach.' (Matthew 23:1-3)"
There is no question that Jesus approved of killing apostates, exactly as killing those who mistreat their parents!

Paul:
Romans 1:20-32 (from the New Testament)
"20. For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities--his eternal power and divine nature--have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse.

32. Although they know God's righteous decree that those who do such things deserve death, they not only continue to do these very things but also approve of those who practice them."
Leviticus 20:27
"And as for a man or woman in whom there proves to be a mediumistic spirit or spirit of prediction, they should be put to death without fail. They should pelt them to death with stones. Their own blood is upon them."
The above verses clearly show that the Bible doesn't tolerate apostates. Jesus did honor the Old Testament's laws and ordered his followers to follow the Old Testament until the day of Judgment:

http://www.answering-christianity.com/death.htm

Anonymous said...

Anon 4:51PM: The above verses clearly show that the Bible doesn't tolerate apostates. Jesus did honor the Old Testament's laws and ordered his followers to follow the Old Testament until the day of Judgment:

You should defend the point raised rather than divert attention to Christianity.

Your bringing up the verses relating to Christianity (if correct) support the point that Christianity is progressive in their spirituality.

Can you show me one present (now) case in real life where Christians insist that their apostates be killed or torture?

Despite what is written in the Bible (as you claim) Christians at present do not condone killing of their apostates. This show that most of the Christians has progressed in spirituality in their religion by being more humane and have the ability to exercise the higher spiritual quality of human values.

As far as not condoning the killing of their apostate, this is a positive point for Christianity that they are adaptable to modern conditions and human progress.

I fully agree with the flexibility practiced by Christians on matter, though i may not agree with some of their other principles.

Muslims should adopt the flexible practice of Christians on not calling for the killing of their apostates.

Anonymous said...

Muslims should adopt the flexible practice of Christians on not calling for the killing of their apostates.

this is where your problem originated and that's where it stays

Flexibility.

Squeeze this hard into your skull.

Islam do not change by the logics of human thoughts or reason or time.

If you want muslims who are flexible, well yes we have a lot of them, but if you want Islam to be flexible then sorry. Not in your life, not even in hereafter.

I'll bet my $1mil for that.

Whatif said...

So, you would still insist on punishment for apostates and alienate them further?

After what you have done to Kamariah, you think she would ever come back to the Islam you practise?

For her sake, I pray she would forgive all those who have wronged her and not harbour any hatred.

Would it not be more sensible to treat the old lady with respect and let her go after the few rounds of rehab? How much more you want her to suffer? Till she dies in prison?

Have a heart and let her go quietly. Then, she might still have a chance to come back to the faith.

Peace to all mankind.

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