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Friday, December 12, 2008

Clarification on my Article on the Mumbai Incident

The truth is no one supports the action taken by terrorist in Mumbai. Islam prohibits the killing and hurting of innocent human beings. In fact, Islam prohibits the killing or hurting of any living beings. There is a hadeeth in Sahih Bukhari of a women being sent to hell because she torchered her cat and a man sent to heaven because he gave a thirsty dog water. The man took the trouble to climb down a well and use his shoes to carry water up the well so the the dog can drink. For that the man is given passage to Heaven.

My entire article questions the double standard stand taken by most people when it comes to terrorism.

When it is oppressed Muslims who commits them, everyone will shout at the top of their voice condemning it.

But when the terrorists are the US Army or the Israeli Defence forces, who killed innocent women and children in Iraq, Afghanistan,Palestine etc, we hardly hear a whimper.

Even Aryn Baker of the Times magazine beliefs that Mumbai incident has it's roots in the discrimination and oppression the Muslims in India felt all this while. One can read her article below:

Or where are these voices when innocent Muslims are massacared in kashmir, Southern Thailand, Burma, India (gujurat), Lebanon, Maluku etc.

There is just deafening silence from the same people who comes out in arms protesting islamic terrorism.

This to me is double standard of the highest degree and such hypocrisy deserves utmost condemnation.

Are innocent Muslim blood means lesser than non Muslims

The Mumbai incident is a tit for tat for all the atrocities committed by the Indian army in kashmir.

Nonetheless, the average Indians in Mumbai are innocent and should not be subjected to the revene sought by the Mumbai perpetrators.

But, then again, desperate people will resort to desperate measure.

Put ourselves in their shoes. Would we resort to such acts if our sisters, mothers, daugthers are raped right in front of our eyes? would we do such thing if our children are shot in cold blood.

That's also the reason why some of the Palestinian suicide bombers are Christians.

At the end of the day, it's not about terrorism. It's merely an act of revenge.

Tulang Besi




Behind the Mumbai Massacre: India's Muslims in Crisis [in-depth]

By Aryn Baker

The disembodied voice was chilling in its rage. A gunman, holed up in Mumbai's Oberoi Trident hotel where some 40 people had been taken hostage, told an Indian news channel that the attacks were revenge for the persecution of Muslims in India. "We love this as our country but when our mothers and sisters were being killed, where was everybody?" he asked via telephone. No answer came. But then he probably wasn't expecting one.

The roots of Muslim rage run deep in India, nourished by a long-held sense of injustice over what many Indian Muslims believe is institutionalized discrimination against the country's largest minority group. The disparities between Muslims, which make up 13.4% of the population, and India's Hindu population, which hovers around 80%, are striking. There are exceptions, of course, but generally speaking Muslim Indians have shorter life spans, worse health, lower literacy levels, and lower-paying jobs. Add to that toxic brew the lingering resentment over 2002's anti-Muslim riots in the state of Gujarat. The riots, instigated by Hindu nationalists, killed some 2000 people, most of them Muslim. To this day, few of the perpetrators have been convicted. See pictures of the terrorist shootings in Mumbai.

The huge gap between Muslims and Hindus will continue to haunt India's, and neighboring Pakistan's, progress towards peace and prosperity. But before inter-communal relations can improve there is an even bigger problem that must first be worked out: the schism in subcontinental Islam, and the religion's place and role in modern India and Pakistan. It is a crisis 150 years in the making.

The Beginning of the Problem
On the afternoon of March 29, 1857, Mangal Pandey, a handsome, mustachioed soldier in the East India Company's native regiment, attacked his British lieutenant. His hanging a week later sparked a subcontinental revolt known to Indians as the first war of independence and to the British as the Sepoy Mutiny. Retribution was swift, and though Pandey was a Hindu, it was the subcontinent's Muslims, whose Mughal King nominally held power in Delhi, who bore the brunt of British rage. The remnants of the Mughal Empire were dismantled, and five hundred years of Muslim supremacy on the subcontinent was brought to a halt.

Muslim society in India collapsed. The British imposed English as the official language. The impact was cataclysmic. Muslims went from near 100% literacy to 20% within a half-century. The country's educated Muslim élite was effectively blocked from administrative jobs in the government. Between 1858 and 1878, only 57 out of 3,100 graduates of Calcutta University — then the center of South Asian education — were Muslim. While discrimination by both Hindus and the British played a role, it was as if the whole of Muslim society had retreated to lick its collective wounds.

From this period of introspection two rival movements emerged to foster an Islamic ascendancy. Revivalist groups blamed the collapse of their empire on a society that had strayed too far from the teachings of the Koran. They promoted a return to a more pure form of Islam, modeled on the life of the Prophet Muhammad. Others embraced the modern ways of their new rulers, seeking Muslim advancement through the pursuit of Western sciences, culture and law. From these movements two great Islamic institutions were born: Darul Uloom Deoband in northern India, rivaled only by al-Azhar University in Cairo for its teaching of Islam, and Aligarh Muslim University, a secular institution that promoted Muslim culture, philosophy and languages, but left religion to the mosque. These two schools embody the fundamental split that continues to divide Islam in the subcontinent today. "You could say that Deoband and Aligarh are husband and wife, born from the same historical events," says Adil Siddiqui, information coordinator for Deoband. "But they live at daggers drawn."

The campus at Deoband is only a three-hour drive from New Delhi through the modern megasuburb of Noida. Strip malls and monster shopping complexes have consumed many of the mango groves that once framed the road to Deoband, but the contemporary world stops at the gate. The courtyards are packed with bearded young men wearing long, collared shirts and white caps. The air thrums with the voices of hundreds of students reciting the Koran from open-door classrooms.
Founded in 1866, the Deoband School quickly set itself apart from other traditional madrasahs, which were usually based in the home of the village mosque's prayer leader. Deoband's founders, a group of Muslim scholars from New Delhi, instituted a regimented system of classrooms, coursework, texts and exams. Instruction is in Urdu, Persian and Arabic, and the curriculum closely follows the teachings of the 18th century Indian Islamic scholar Mullah Nizamuddin Sehalvi. Graduates go on to study at Cairo's al-Azhar and Islamic University of Medina in Saudi Arabia, or found their own Deobandi institutions.

Today, more than 9,000 Deobandi madrasahs are scattered throughout India, Afghanistan and Pakistan, most infamously the Dara-ul-Uloom Haqaniya Akora Khattak, near Peshawar, where Mullah Mohammed Omar, and several other leaders of Afghanistan's Taliban first tasted a life lived in accordance with Shari'a. Siddiqui visibly stiffens when those names are brought up. They have become synonymous with Islamic radicalism, and Siddiqui is careful to disassociate his institution from those that carry on its traditions, without actually condemning their actions. "Our books are being taught there," he says. "They have the same system and rules. But if someone is following the path of terrorism, it is because of local compulsions and local politics."

Sir Syed Ahmad Khan, founder of the Anglo-Mohammedan Oriental College at Aligarh in 1877, studied under the same teachers as the founders of Deoband. But he believed that the downfall of India's Muslims was due to their unwillingness to embrace modern ways. He decoupled religion from education, and in his school sought to emulate the culture and training of India's new colonial masters. Islamic culture was part of the curriculum, but so were the latest advances in sciences, medicine and Western philosophy. The medium was English, the better to prepare students for civil-service jobs. He called his school the Oxford of the East. In architecture alone, the campus lives up to that name. A euphoric blend of clock towers, crenellated battlements, Mughal arches, domes and the staid red brick of Victorian institutions that only India's enthusiastic embrace of all things European could produce, the central campus of Aligarh today is haven to a diverse crowd of male, female, Hindu and Muslim students. Its law and medicine schools are among the top-ranked in India, but so are its arts faculty and Quranic Studies Centre. "With all this diversity, language, culture, secularism was the only way to go forward as a nation," says Aligarh's vice-chancellor, P.K. Abdul Azis. "It was the new religion."

This fracture in religious doctrine — whether Islam should embrace the modern or revert to its fundamental origins — between two schools less than a day's donkey ride apart when they were founded, was barely remarked upon at the time. But over the course of the next 100 years, that tiny crack would split Islam into two warring ideologies with repercussions that reverberate around the world to this day. Before the split manifested into crisis, however, the founders of both the Deoband and Aligarh universities shared the common goal of an independent India. Pedagogical leanings were overlooked as students and staff of both institutions joined with Hindus across the subcontinent to remove the yoke of colonial rule in the early decades of the 20th century.

Two Faiths, Two Nations
But nationalistic trends were pulling at the fragile alliance, and India began to splinter along ethnic and religious lines. Following World War I, a populist Muslim poet-philosopher by the name of Muhammad Iqbal framed the Islamic zeitgeist when he questioned the position of minority Muslims in a future, independent India. The solution, Iqbal proposed, was an independent state for Muslim-majority provinces in northwestern India, a separate country where Muslims would rule themselves. The idea of Pakistan was born.

Mohammed Ali Jinnah, the Savile Row-suited lawyer who midwifed Pakistan into existence on Aug. 14, 1947, was notoriously ambiguous about how he envisioned the country once it became an independent state. Both he and Iqbal, who were friends until the poet's death in 1938, had repeatedly stated their dream for a "modern, moderate and very enlightened Pakistan," says Sharifuddin Pirzada, Jinnah's personal secretary. Jinnah's own wish was that the Pakistani people, as members of a new, modern and democratic nation, would decide the country's direction.

But rarely in Pakistan's history have its people lived Jinnah's vision for a modern Muslim democracy. Only three times in its 62-year history has Pakistan seen a peaceful, democratic transition of power. With four disparate provinces, over a dozen languages and dialects, and powerful neighbors, leaders — be they Presidents, Prime Ministers or army chiefs — have been forced to knit the nation together with the only thing Pakistanis have in common: religion.

Following the 1971 civil war, when East Pakistan, now Bangladesh, broke away, the populist Prime Minister Zulfikar Ali Bhutto embarked on a Muslim identity program to prevent the country from fracturing further. General Mohammed Zia ul-Haq continued the Islamization campaign when he overthrew Bhutto in 1977, hoping to garner favor with the religious parties, the only constituency available to a military dictator. He instituted Shari'a courts, made blasphemy illegal, and established laws that punished fornicators with lashes and held that rape victims could be convicted of adultery. When the Soviet Union invaded neighboring Afghanistan in December 1979, Pakistan was already poised for its own Islamic revolution.

Almost overnight, thousands of refugees poured over the border into Pakistan. Camps mushroomed, and so did madrasahs. Ostensibly created to educate the refugees, they provided the ideal recruiting ground for a new breed of soldier: mujahedin, or holy warriors, trained to vanquish the infidel invaders in America's proxy war with the Soviet Union. Thousands of Pakistanis joined fellow Muslims from across the world to fight the Soviets. As far away as Karachi, high-school kids started wearing "jihadi jackets," the pocketed vests popular with the mujahedin. Says Hamid Gul, then head of the Pakistan intelligence agency charged with arming and training the mujahedin: "In the 1980s, the world watched the people of Afghanistan stand up to tyranny, oppression and slavery. The spirit of jihad was rekindled, and it gave a new vision to the youth of Pakistan."

But jihad, as it is described in the Koran, does not end merely with political gain. It ends in a perfect Islamic state. The West's, and Pakistan's, cynical resurrection of something so profoundly powerful and complex unleashed a force whose roots can be found in al-Qaeda's rage, the Taliban's dream of an Islamic utopia in Afghanistan, and in the dozens of radical Islamic groups rapidly replicating themselves in India and around the world today. "The promise of jihad was never fulfilled," says Gul. "Is it any wonder the fighting continues to this day?" Religion may have been used to unite Pakistan, but it is also tearing it apart.

India Today
In India, Islam is, in contrast, the other — purged by the British, denigrated by the Hindu right, mistrusted by the majority, marginalized by society. India has nearly as many Muslims as all of Pakistan, but in a nation of more than a billion, they are still a minority, with all the burdens that minorities anywhere carry. Government surveys show that Muslims live shorter, poorer and unhealthier lives than Hindus and are often excluded from the better jobs. To be sure, there are Muslim success stories in the booming economy. Azim Premji, the founder of the outsourcing giant Wipro, is one of the richest individuals in India. But, for many Muslims, the inequality of the boom has reinforced their exclusion.

Kashmir, a Muslim-dominated state whose fate had been left undecided in the chaos that led up to partition, remains a suppurating wound in India's Muslim psyche. As the cause of three wars between India and Pakistan — one of which nearly went nuclear in 1999 — Kashmir has become a symbol of profound injustice to Indian Muslims who believe that their government cares little for Kashmir's claim of independence, which is based upon a 1948 U.N. resolution promising a plebiscite to determine the Kashmiri people's future. That frustration has spilled into the rest of India in the form of several devastating terrorist attacks that have made Indian Muslims both perpetrators and victims.

A mounting sense of persecution, fueled by the government's seeming reluctance to address the brutal anti-Muslim riots that killed more than 2,000 in the state of Gujarat in 2002, has aided the cause of homegrown militant groups. They include the banned Student Islamic Movement of India (SIMI), which was accused of detonating nine bombs in Bombay during the course of 2003, killing close to 80. The 2006 terrorist attacks on the Bombay commuter rail system that killed 183 people were also blamed on SIMI, as well as the pro-Kashmir Pakistani terrorist group Lashkar-e-Toiba (LeT). Those incidents exposed the all-too-common Hindu belief that Muslims aren't really Indian. "LeT, SIMI, it doesn't matter who was behind these attacks. They are all children of [Pervez] Musharraf," sneered Manish Shah, a Mumbai resident who lost his best friend in the explosions, referring to the then president of Pakistan. In India, unlike Pakistan, Islam does not unify, but divide.

Still, many South Asian Muslims insist Islam is the one and only force that can bring the subcontinent together and return it to preeminence as a single whole. "We [Muslims] were the legal rulers of India, and in 1857 the British took that away from us," says Tarik Jan, a gentle-mannered scholar at Islamabad's Institute of Policy Studies. "In 1947 they should have given that back to the Muslims." Jan is no militant, but he pines for the golden era of the Mughal period in the 1700s, and has a fervent desire to see India, Pakistan and Bangladesh reunited under Islamic rule.

That sense of injustice is at the root of Muslim identity today. It has permeated every aspect of society, and forms the basis of rising Islamic radicalism on the subcontinent. "People are hungry for justice," says Ahmed Rashid, Pakistani journalist and author of the new book Descent Into Chaos. "It is perceived to be the fundamental promise of the Koran." These twin phenomena — the longing many Muslims have to see their religion restored as the subcontinent's core, and the marks of both piety and extremism Islam bears — reflect the lack of strong political and civic institutions in the region for people to have faith in. If the subcontinent's governments can't provide those institutions, then terrorists such as the Trident's mysterious caller, will continue asking questions. And providing their own answers.

With reporting by Jyoti Thottam / Mumbai and Ershad Mahmud / Islamabad

227 comments:

1 – 200 of 227   Newer›   Newest»
cuma tanya je said...

saya heren nape terrorist seluruh dunia 100% muslim????? nape?

Anonymous said...

Then how come they cm from pakistan and not from among the Indian Muslim...can u answer this...

Anonymous said...

....if marginality then Malaysian Indians also can do the same thing in the name of marginality do u agree wth me Tulang Besi....

Anonymous said...

after reading your artcl i think you love killing all the kafir's in this world...in the name of Islam...good luck... Huntington's idea becaming reality..i guess...

malayamuda said...

Tulang Besi,

Your reasoning is indeed sick. Hell we live in 2008 now and not 1429.

You are a disgrace to Islam

Anonymous said...

TB: "But when the terrorists are the US Army or the Israeli Defence forces, who killed innocent women and children in Iraq, Afghanistan,Palestine etc, we hardly hear a whimper.
There is just deafening silence from the same people who comes out in arms protesting islamic terrorism.
This to me is double standard of the highest degree and such hypocrisy deserves utmost condemnation."

Your religiosity has killed your rational thinking in relation to this article. It is some sort of psychological weakness on your part.

There is no official policies from USAF or Israeli defence forces to kill any innocent people.
Many deaths to the innocents are accidental. The USAF and other armies in the world had even killed their own soldiers in the course of any officially declared war.

Anyone or groups within USAF and other armies who planned premeditated killings (or under stress)of innocent people had always been tried in courts and persecuted when found guilty.

Muslims terrorists on the other hand are different. Motivated by their religious texts, they deliberately set out to kill innocent people. Note they targetted to kill 5000 defenceless non-muslims.

The fact that you wrote an article to soften the Mumbai terrorists demonstrated there is something wrong with your thinking. These sort of thinking is dangerous because it indirectly and subltely support Muslim related terrorism despite your outward condemnation of it.

It is only logical to compare the acts of USAF to terrorists, if the US has an official policy of deliberately killing innocents and approved of it. Can you imagine how many millions would be killed if the USAF adopt the same policy of the muslim terrorists.

In the US and other countries, internally there are a lot of their own citizens who voiced against war. Note anti-vietnam and anti-irag war NGOs which are very prominent with their protest.

Whereas, I don't see many muslims protest and voiced out loudly againsts muslim-related terrorism.

The next time, you want to write any article on terrorism, just focus on the topic of terrorism. Do not relate it to US, Israel, China or Korean war.

Anonymous said...

how come only muslims have problems the world over? why do Muslims have so much trouble living with others in the world?

where ever they are there seems to be problems? even in places where they form the majority they seem to have problems

muslims suffer from inferiority complex and feel they are always looked down upon........

and tulang besi's explanation stinks. how can you justify what muslims do by saying they have been marginalised?

Serious Shepherd said...

cuma tanya je said...
saya heren nape terrorist seluruh dunia 100% muslim????? nape?

Saya terbaca laporan dari Jane's pasal pengebom berani mati dan saya pun 'heren' sungguh kenapa walaupun ada 168 pengebom berani mati dari LTTE dan lebih banyak walaupun pengebom berani mati Islam dijumlahkan, pengebom berani mati masih dikaitkan dengan Islam.

malaysiaku said...

stupid. 200,000 India hindus was force out of Kashmir and you tulang besi talk cork. malaysia 600 years ago was hindu. can i claim it back.
you stupid fellow.

teohjitkhiam said...

Dear Sir.

Yes, your article could be misintrepreted, but only so because you chose to focus on the double standards imposed, instead of making a credible stance of disassociating the religion from the actions of the terrorists and the terrorists themselves.

One wrong cannot be righted by pointing to another wrong. The manner in which you, and many others, elaborated on those double standards is akin to those employed by the UMNO government justifying ISA: "Hey, look at Guantanamo!"

malayamuda said...

serious shepard,

i guess it is bcos when the LTTE do something they dont relate it to their religion or justify thta their religion says it is OK to be in the suicide squad.

however when a Muslim commits terrorism, they MUST ALWAYS relate it in the name of Islam or justify verses in the Koran.......

there fore we get Muslim Terrorists and others are all knows as terrorist from their organisation name and not of their religion.

Islam is hijacked by Muslims themselves

Anonymous said...

The problem wth so called moderates in Islam wanna bring back the first 20yrs of Islamic rule in middle east....so once upon a time All the Malays Hidu-buddist-some pagan- Now Malays wanna be like Arabs....the joke of the day is Arabs hate this so called second class Muslims....the same think happening in India...

Anonymous said...

Tulang besi, regarding Islamic Terrorist, I stand on pagar besi, neutral.....

Seen too many to be on your side and heard too little to be on their side.

Anonymous said...

malayamuda said...
i guess it is bcos when the LTTE do something they dont relate it to their religion or justify that their religion says it is OK to be in the suicide squad.

however when a Muslim commits terrorism, they MUST ALWAYS relate it in the name of Islam or justify verses in the Koran.......


I agree with your above point and that is why there is so much talk about Muslims-Islam-terrorism.

We do not talk a lot (but we still condemn their negatives) of LTTE and USAF actions because they are confined to specific locations.

But it is frightening when a Muslim terrorists invoke (rightly or wrongly) verses in the Quran. It meant that any Muslims has the potential to be become a terrorist.

Worst still muslim terrorists are not confined to any type of person with specific profile, it can be from the rich, poor, very educated and just about any Muslim. It can your own countrymen or even neighbor.

Being aware of the above, one cannot even be guaranteed that Tulang Besi could bomb a plane full of innocent people, if he suddenly kena putus-wire (chi sin) in his brain (due to stress of defending all our posts) and get justification by abusing verses from his holy texts.

Scary!

Anonymous said...

I would like to share a few thoughts ...

- As a Christian, I condemn American interference in the affairs of other countries, such as Chile resulting in the Pinochet dictatorship, in Congo which led to the murder of Patrice Lumumba and civil war, in Indochina, in Iran where the democratically elected Prime Minister Mossadegh was overthrown, etc. etc. America is no different than Al-Qaeda in using force to spread its ideology (of capitalism) for its own self-interests. Bush is a terrorist and American atrocities on Muslims are well documented. America since Woodrow Wilson at least has this messianic vision of its foreign policy. America is doing the work of the devil because of using the Law in the wrong sense and way.

- The Israel Defense Forces are also guilty of atrocities, e.g. Ariel Sharon. But I support the right of the Jewish people to exist as a nation. "Right" here means natural right or human right. I do not and never will support Christian Zionism which basically regards Israel as a chosen nation. This crosses the line into religion which will only perpetuate conflict, not solve it. The distinction between secular and religious is applied here. The same applies to Muslims (especially in the Middle East). The *only* viable solution is a two-state in co-existence. Both sides must understand this. So, Hamas's desire to drive Israel into the sea is of no use for a peaceful resolution, and only serve to *perpetuate* the conflict.

- The US will never be beaten militarily. If ever, then it will come at a very very high price ... maybe at the expense of a nuclear holocaust. Muslims must pray to Allah that justice will surely be executed on behalf of Muslims against the US. Vengeance is Allah's, and a "double portion" on top of that. If you want to fight the USA, you'll lose. A universal caliphate or not. Even the OIC doesn't declare war on the USA.

Anonymous said...

So, continuation from above, Al-Qaeda will not beat the USA into submission. And all along, Muslims are the no. 1 victims in all this. At the end of the day, the situation of the Muslims at made worse, not better.

Tulang Besi said...

cuma tanye je,

How do u explain the LTTE, VHP, Tupac Amaru, Basque Separatist, the IRA etc

Are they all Muslims?

Tulang Besi said...

There is no official policies from USAF or Israeli defence forces to kill any innocent people.
Many deaths to the innocents are accidental. The USAF and other armies in the world had even killed their own soldiers in the course of any officially declared war.


Tell me, when the USAF bombs Baghdad, are they really stupid enough not to know that they will kill innocent lives?

I hardly think that the Shabra and Shatilla incident a form of "accidental killings".

Really, please find other excuses than accidental killings

Augustinian Successor said...

It is better for Muslims (that is in their self-interests) to disassociate themselves from terrorism). For one, they will gain the support from the mainstream - non-Muslims who are neither pro-West or anti-Islam.

Malaysian Muslims should emphasise more on common and universal values which holds our plural society together. No one religious group has a monopoly of morality. This would go a long way towards promoting inter-religious harmony and at the same time ensure that secular does not mean anti-religion.

Re the Mumbai incident, even if the US is ultimately co-responsible in aiming to stoke tension between Pakistan and India so as to keep Pakistan dependent on the US just as India is moving closer towards Russia, it is precisely that Muslims nations are pawns in the hands of the USA. This is one reason why you cannot beat the USA. They are ahead in the game, always.

The Iran issue too represents a proxy war between the USA and Russia.

Al-Qaeda, ISI, CIA - they're all in it together. The ultimate recourse is not force, but the judgment of Allah. But Muslims insist on violence other than *legitimate* self defence as a natural right, then you are fooling yourselves.

Tulang Besi said...

malaysiaku said...

stupid. 200,000 India hindus was force out of Kashmir and you tulang besi talk cork. malaysia 600 years ago was hindu. can i claim it back.
you stupid fellow.


Funny thing is that according to Indian Census data, Hindu population has actually increased in Jammu Kashmir in the last 20 years.

Tulang Besi said...

,i guess it is bcos when the LTTE do something they dont relate it to their religion or justify thta their religion says it is OK to be in the suicide squad.

however when a Muslim commits terrorism, they MUST ALWAYS relate it in the name of Islam or justify verses in the Koran.......
,

Are you sure religion doesn't play any role? Aren't the tamils Hindu and the Sinhalese Buddhists?

All i know is that Islam supports those who are oppressed to fight against their oppressor(s).

That's all.

And the fact that the State Department decides to label legitimate freedom fighters like Hamas and Hizbullah as terrorists doesn't make it so, does it?

Tulang Besi said...

dear anon,

the first government to unmarginalize Indians in their state is the Kelantan State government.

The kelantan state government actually gave land titles to Indians living in their state, unprecedented in the history of malaysia.

Indians in Kelantan are largely supporters of Tok Guru Nik Aziz

Tulang Besi said...

- The Israel Defense Forces are also guilty of atrocities, e.g. Ariel Sharon. But I support the right of the Jewish people to exist as a nation.

Actually nobody is against the jewish right for a nation. But when you build your nation on lands belonging to Palestinians by force, that's when the problem starts

Deutsch said...

I think when you have low level of education and your family were killed by the "other group" you would do act of terrorism to justify your vengeance. The fact that many innocent lives has been taken as well. So it is not "tit for tat" at all.

Deutsch said...

The USA and its counterpart has done a great job to brainwash the residents of the world. Gents and ladies find out who Edward Bernays is. So be careful with the USA ( and its shadow-player)

Anonymous said...

"like Hamas and Hizbullah as terrorists doesn't make it so, does it?"

Unlike the mujahideens in Afghanistan, it's very dangerous to regard Hamas and Hizbollah as freedom fighters. They may not be terrorists in the conventional sense. But they are no different from terrorists. Despite money pouring into PA from USA and EU, lives haven't improved that much for the ordinary Palestinians. Corruption is not just endemic to Fatah, but Hamas also. If a two-state solution cannot be established because on the side of the Palestinians, Hamas and Fatah are both stumbling-blocks, then let West Bank and the Gaza Strip be "annexed" to the Kingdom of Jordan. After all, many Jordanians are of Palestinian descent.

The other way is through international pressure. But as long as Hamas plans attacks against Israeli citizens, then there is little moral incentive for concerted international pressure.

The strategy must be to step back and ensure that Gaza Strip and West Bank are cleared of any Jewish settlements; secondly, to ensure that the various security apparatus of PA and Hamas do not fight each other and are used to maintain peace and order within the borders. Thirdly, go all out to secure outright international pressure, where history has shown that this has worked in the past. Past Israeli Prime Ministers have shown a readiness to concede such as Ehud Barak and the outgoing Ehud Olmert.

But if this "tit-for-tat" goes on, the Palestinian people will continue to suffer, thanks to Hamas and Fatah. It is impossible that surrounded as it is by Muslim countries, the West Bank and Gaza Strip cannot succeed to pull itself out of the socio-economic doldrums.

The culture of martyrdom which Hamas is promoting will not bring glory to the people of Palestine. The only solution to the problems of a displaced people is to improve their socio-economic conditions. With Barak Obama as the next US president, there should not be anymore excuse.

John Bastille said...

Tulang Besi's entire article questions the double standard stand taken by most people when it comes to terrorism.

There are reasons as to why that happens.

Reason #1: The different interpretation of innocent.

To the Free People, the understanding of innocent has a wider coverage. However, in Islam, non-believers, apostates, and many categories of muslims (e.g. munafiqs) are not categorised as innocent. Thus, killing them has no sin. In fact, Islam encourages the killing of these people. You win points and can advance to Paradise.

Thus, Tulang Besi is correct. Islam prohibits the killing of innocent human beings. But he left out what is defined as innocent in Islam.

Thus, most muslims do not feel grief when they learned about these killings. For example, TB is more concerned about the backlash of Islamophobia rather than the sufferings of the victims.

Reason #2: Israel

As long as Israel and Jews are not wiped out from the earth, violent atrocities will be committed. It seems that muslim killers around the world are constantly affected by the existence of Israel. For example, Jews were also targeted in Mumbai. Two years ago, three Indonesian Christian schoolgirls were beheaded on their was to school. When the killers were caught, one said that it is for the revenge for the Palestinians. Don't ask me how and why? I'm one of the Free People.

As you can see, TB's article on Mumbai also included Israel. Everything that went bad has got to do with Israel and the Jews.

Reason #3: Uniform

The alleged atrocities committed by USAF and IDF were military aggression. The aggressors wore uniform. TB talked about the bombing of Baghdad. I would like to include Hiroshima and Nagasaki. You see, as a Free Person, my concern includes atrocities towards all people, regardless of religion and colour. Muslims' concerns are only atrocities against muslims only. The rest can go to hell or be "fathed". Thats why they have very selective memory on history.

The muslim terrorists wear civilians clothes and targets civilians.

Anyway, TB shouldn't be upset because the actions of USAF and IDF happen to be emulating footsteps of the early muslims.

On the accusation of one individual or a group, the entire town is conquered, all males killed, women distributed amongst the raiders,and children sold to slavery. Khumus is collected. War booty is distributed.

Anonymous said...

Owang putih kata "here we go again".
Tiap kali Islam di Bela di Blog ade saje bidasan yang pernah kite baca di blogg lain yang terdulu.
Dia orang ni sudah ada "standard menu" dan "standard pulldown" bidasan.
Terus kan ,jangan ambil peduli sebab memang kerja mereka saperti yang firman Allah.
arjuna waspada.

Augustinian Successor said...

The 1948 recognition of Medinat Yisrael by the United Nations cannot be reversed. The question is what would be the borders in the context of a two-state solution. The details would have to worked out. Just as even after the assassination of Anwar Sadat, Egypt did not revoke its recogition of Israel, and Jordan and Turkey being the other countries which have diplomatic relations. So, for any side to interpret the whole situation in the religious dimension will only perpetuate the conflict.

The least the Jews could say(ideally since not all Jews are ultra-orthodox) is that they are returning to their ancestral homeland which they left when they were dispersed subsequent to and consequent of the Roman sacking of Jerusalem in 70AD. In other words, they are not returning to Israel as a "God-given right" by a divine mandate. For the Muslims, although the land was conquered by them before, to want to reclaim the entire square per mile is impossible because it is impractical.

Muslims have to remember that Saudi Arabia which sees itself as rightful leader of Sunni Islam is in rivalry with Iran as the largest Shiite country. Saudi Arabia needs Israel to counter-balance Iran.

Should Israel be gone from the map, it will not being peace and stability to the Middle East because of the rivalry between the Sunni and Shiite.

Anonymous said...

helo katak dibawah tempruungs!!..do u all think the attacks in mumbai was the 1st one this year?man,lots of bombings are taking place in that city..couple of months ago,over 200 people killed...and in the north east,we have the usual naxalites,maoists groups killing innocent citizens..normally we see bombings ,and killing,mobs going berserk..but this recent attacks in mumbai siki lain..1st india announced that there is "unknwon group" called Deccan Mujahideen(Frm the south) were responsible..now we hear Lasker El Toiba frm Kashmir(the north)..alo..yg mana satu betui??..then we see the video clip of one jack s wearing jeans shooting..eh eh?no topengs,no ski mask nothing to cover his face?..pakailah hotak siki..militants frm kashmir need to use sea route kah?kahkahkah...ini semua smell like a covert operation..u know..how the freakin,stupid,paranoid americans national disease of someone attacking them..and war actually is a very good bizniz oppurtunity..kahkahkah

Anonymous said...

The best way to bring about the end of American hegemony is not what Al-Qaeda is doing. It is self-defeating. Al-Qaeda as a creation of the CIA is playing the game according to the rules set by the Americans themselves. The best way through the use of science and technology as pillars of progress and development. The OIC should be doing its part is accelerating the shift of economic power from the West, principally the US to Asia and Africa. Then the OIC will be on track to restoring past glory to Islamic nations.

Anonymous said...

Me thinks American dominance is alread dead..dying slowly le..actually aah,it's the asian countries,china,,the middle east are responsbile for keeping that debt ridden country alive..kahkahkah

Tulang Besi said...

,Blogger Augustinian Successor said...

The 1948 recognition of Medinat Yisrael by the United Nations cannot be reversed.


What recognition? To date there has been no recognition from the UN for Israel.

Israel is an illegal state.

Tulang Besi said...

JB says:

"To the Free People, the understanding of innocent has a wider coverage. However, in Islam, non-believers, apostates, and many categories of muslims (e.g. munafiqs) are not categorised as innocent. Thus, killing them has no sin. In fact, Islam encourages the killing of these people. You win points and can advance to Paradise."

Hmmm, i wonder where JB got this c**p from? Ohh i forgot this all came from his wild imagination. much like much of his argument against Islam.

Anonymous said...

Jimmy Carter and many other jewish scholars think Isreal is an aperthaid state..the prob with these jewish fellas is that dont like peace or any radical spritual shifts becos these race group is very much under the influuence of falsehood..that's rite..me jew u goyim pariah..kahkahkah..tau tak what those orthodox rabbis did to Trotsky and Yitzhak Rabin..hehe..u c,they recite some mantras that gives them "the power" to curse..that's what they did to Rabin..right in front of his house..they did it Trostsky too..so u see folks,they seem to reject anything that represents peace and harmony..jesus himself was rejected by jews waat..kahkahkah..ini problemtik punya bangsa oh..kahkahkah

Anonymous said...

Oh..type "india pakistan war" n c google news search results..mccain predicts india pakistan war..india rules out war..kahkahkah..itulah dia..the objektif is to melagakan india pak..so dat the US military industrial complex can juai tanks,jet fighters,mesen gun..bizniz!!kahkahkah

John Bastille said...

Tulang Besi,

Thank you for the invitation to publish sahih sources to state the sentences.

According to the Quran Verse: AL-TAWBA 009.029: "Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, (even if they are) of the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued.

That would give licence to all muslims to fight (which includes killing) non-believers. Once again, the mafia protection money on jizyah for people of the book is required.

As for apostates and munafiqs, we have the Quran AN-NISA 004.089
"They but wish that ye should reject Faith, as they do, and thus be on the same footing (as they): But take not friends from their ranks until they flee in the way of Allah (From what is forbidden). But if they turn renegades, seize them and slay them wherever ye find them; and (in any case) take no friends or helpers from their ranks;-

TB, I believe that slaying them is the same as killing them.

In conclusion, muslims are required to kill non-believers, apostates and munafiqs.

You may, of course, say that I quoted out of context. That's an easy way out instead of debunking my statements. But can you say that what muslims are doing now resonate these versis? am I quoting out from what is happening in the real world?

Saw what happened to Lina Joy? How about Datuk Azhar?

Christian kill? Hindu suicide bombers? Buddhist kill? Of course, we have history of them doing so. But, is in in their holy texts?

I am quoting sahih sources. Please don't say that I am quoting rubbish. You may offend certain people.

Samuel Goh Kim Eng said...

RESURRECT WHAT'S CORRECT

A new wrong cannot any old wrong correct
No point justifying any present wrong to rectify another past wrong
Better to allow righteousness to resurrect
To replace all wrongs with rights before too long

(C) Samuel Goh Kim Eng - 121208
http://MotivationInMotion.blogspot.com
Fri. 12th Dec. 2008.

Anonymous said...

Dear TB,

You maybe right that the UN as a body did not officially recognise Israel as a sovereign state. Having said this, Israel is a member of the UN, athough there are countries which do not have diplomatic relations with the it.

Anonymous said...

"Me thinks American dominance is alread dead..dying slowly le..actually aah,it's the asian countries,china,,the middle east are responsbile for keeping that debt ridden country alive.."


Yes, America is a debt-ridden country. Americans consumers have the lowest household savings per capita of any country in the world. The real economy (Main Street) is financed by credit obtained from Japan, China and the Middle East. But the USA remains the world's superpower, at present. Obama wants to increase the size of the military. This is no different in principle from the military-industrial-media complex's version of a "war economy" which in effect makes America to be actually a totalitarian or fascist state no different from Nazi Germany or Soviet Union. But in terms of *economic* power, China, India are on the rise. It'll be good that American dominance is "broken" in this sphere so that in relation to Asia and Africa and also Russia, America's political hegemony backed by "hard power" can be balanced and countered.

Tulang Besi said...

JB the Blooper says:

,"According to the Quran Verse: AL-TAWBA 009.029: "Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, (even if they are) of the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued.

That would give licence to all muslims to fight (which includes killing) non-believers. Once again, the mafia protection money on jizyah for people of the book is required."


It doesn't say "all" that's disbelieve but rather "those" who disbelieve.

Ever thought why the verse uses the preposition "Allazi" instead of using the the word "kullu".

Ohh i forgot, JB doesn't refer to the Arabic quran, rather he refers to the translation of the quran.

I got news for you JB, the Quran is in ARABIC and not ENGLISH.

Again, JB's conclusion is faulty.

In case u want to refer to the ORIGINAL TEXT, go to this url

http://www.sacred-texts.com/isl/quran/00904.htm

Tulang Besi said...

JB rants:

"I am quoting sahih sources. Please don't say that I am quoting rubbish. You may offend certain people."

No JB, you're quoting the TRANSLATION of these sahih sources.

They are not the same u know.

Tulang Besi said...

Hindu Kush. The word Kush comes from the arabic word "khush" which means "enter".

So to put is simply, Hindu Kush means "the entrance of India" because Arabs and muslims at that time came from North of India.

Can u understand that John Bastilles.

Anonymous said...

"that's rite..me jew u goyim pariah"

Yes; likewise Palestinians under Hamas are brainwashed to regard Jews as apes, monkeys, citing from the Quran no less etc. In other words, the distinction is not just a spiritual distinction, but a political and social one. It is precisely this lack of distinction between the secular and religious which causes conflict in the first place. I say distinction, not separation.

It's one thing for Muslims to regard themselves as pure or clean spiritually and ritually. Christians are equally "guilty" (or "implicated", i.e. involved) in such thinking, other than the Jews. Monetheistic religions are by their very nature exclusivist in one sense. But it's another when such tenets spill over into the political and social space, where distinctions between the secular and sacred are not made.

Anonymous said...

The implications arising from the lack of distinction (again not separation) between the religious sphere and the public square is what concerns non-Muslims. When non-Muslims insist on Malaysia as a secular nation like the USA for all its flaws and wrongs, they are precisely not anti-religion, but insisting that religion has its proper place in society. Just like the USA where religious values still hold sway notwithstanding liberal humanism *and* fundamentalist extremism (such as Christian Zionism and Reconstruction movement which seeks to resurrect Mosaic laws which bound Israel - and Israel only - into a theocracy) but there is separation of church and state, non-Muslims in recognising the Constitution of Malaysia and the Rukunegara desire that religious influence do not exceed its limit.

This might sound strange to a Muslim, but here I'm not referring to "private" sphere of Muslims, that is in the rituals, religious culture, belief system but to the political and legal expression, most specifically to the notion of Sharia. The Malaysian Constitution places a limit to Sharia. So that there must be mutual understanding which accepts both the plural nature of Malaysian society as well as at the same time its Malay-Muslim character and "historical heritage". Both must be held in tandem; if the balance is to be upset, then the issue of the Sharia will never be resolved.

Concretely, the Sharia law must be flexible when it comes to disputes between conversion of one spouse to Islam, as an example. This would include allowing for the right to transfer such cases to the civil court for adjudication. I for one agree to both the right of the Bar Council to hold that forum not to long ago and the right unhappy Muslims to protest vehemently. Where I oppose is that the forum was not held as a "closed session" and the Umno-inspired faction of the protesters employed thuggish tactics to intimidate the participants.

Anonymous said...

So, the behaviour of Zulkifli Noordin is unhelpful and immature. He should have associated himself with the group of protesters under Salahuddin Ayub.

Tkae the most recent and the most concrete example, the purported fatwa against yoga. Such a fatwa has implications extending beyond the immediate Muslim community, like it or not. People will not find it pleasant to have e.g. JAWI officers raiding a yoga centre to catch "deviant" Muslims. It is one thing to express a view private or otherwise about the good or bad of yoga, it is another to enforce a ruling which is tantamount to an official and "public" expression of "disrespect" to another culture. This is where the line is drawn.

John Bastille said...

Dear Tulang Besi,

Wow, I am impressed. Of all the things that were put on the table - issues like Medina Charter, jizyah, genocide, Timue and Mughal invasion, etc, all you are very focused on is the word "kush".

Tsk tsk, kush kush. Despite the using the same source, wikipedia, you are still adamant that the word 'kush' as only one source.

Tsk tsk, kush kush.

Up to you to decide what is important-lah. Anyway, good luck with your future debates

Anonymous said...

It is unhelpful to support the idea that Palestine is wakaf land. I would support Kampong Makam, Datuk Keramat in Penang as wakaf land, which of course the MAIPP, Land Office (Timur Tengah), Umno, developers, etc. all conspired to cheat the poor inner-city Malays of their right. It is distracts from the persistent root problem of the Palestinians which is socio-economic. Palestinians have the capacity to rebuild their lives. If Israel could succeed despite having to face four consecutive wars ... 1948, 1956, 1967 and the 1973, why not the Palestinians who have much of the world in sympathy to their cause?

Tulang Besi said...

JB says:

"Wow, I am impressed. Of all the things that were put on the table - issues like Medina Charter, jizyah, genocide, Timue and Mughal invasion, etc, all you are very focused on is the word "kush"."

Maybe all the things u mention above are either our of context or merely a figment of your imagination.

That's why it's not worth mentioning.

After all we already caught u lying on the hindu Kush issue.

So safe to assume the other issues are lies as well.

olivia said...

I recently came accross your blog and have been reading along. I thought I would leave my first comment. I dont know what to say except that I have enjoyed reading. Nice blog. I will keep visiting this blog very often.


Joyce

www.webtraffictrigger.com

Tulang Besi said...

Also JB,

There has been no genocide ever done by Muslims in the name of Islam.

Whatever you heard are just lies, mostly unsubstatiated and mostly derived from Indian propaganda.

Much like the claim that Babri Masjid was built upon an ancient Hindu holy site.

It was never substantiated.

Anonymous said...

helo cukoo bird..hamas awas democratically electedlah..moron!!And economic sanctions on the Palestinians by the europeans and USA shows how f*ked up screwed spritually dead europeans are!!secular my s..anything under the hands of the europeans or that paranoid usa gets turned up side down..over mental speculations..lots of diagrams..and they think they are very smart..lol!!ask any of their scients to explain the state of reality beyond the material universe..they will stare blank..duh...ask that nutter ken wilbur wheter or not he has experienced nirvana..he will probably say.."no need ..i can write about it..and my books will be read by millions of dumb westerners and stupid dunggu pretending to be mat salleh celups asians"..frighteningly cukoo these fellas are..lol!!

Anonymous said...

Tell me, when the USAF bombs Baghdad, are they really stupid enough not to know that they will kill innocent lives?

I hardly think that the Shabra and Shatilla incident a form of "accidental killings".
In a declared war, it is inevitable that some civilians be casualty in the cross fire. However, I am sure precautions would have been taken to ensure no bad public relations backfire on them.

Any obvious deliberate killings of innocents would be subjected to the law and condemnation. It happened in Vietnam and elsewhere.

In contrast, many muslims terrorists in our present day would cowardly and deliberately target innocents in buildings, planes, hotel, streets instead of military installations.

That's the difference.

The normal person (me included) would condemn any sort of killing civilians, even if it is accidental.

However your indirect support for Muslim terrorist reveals a lot of your mental state.

Anonymous said...

Supporting terrorists eh?Ameriacans elected an IQ91 skulls n bones member whose family rubbed shoulder with the Nazis for 2 terms..so my dear moron, who is supporting the terrorist?

Anonymous said...

Citing frm the quran?jews are monkeys?kahkahkah..man,ISO9001 certified cukoo bird..kahkahkah

Anonymous said...

Jalaluddin Rumi giving the details of Nirvana of the absolute!!!

Only Breath
Not Christian or Jew or Muslim,not Hindu, Buddhist, Sufi or Zen.Not any religion, or cultural system.I am not from the East or the West,nor out of the ocean or upfrom the ground, not natural or ethereal,not composed of elements at all.I do not exist, am not an entity in this worldor the next, did not descend from Adam and Eveor any origin story.My place is placeless, a trace of the traceless.Neither body nor soul.I belong to the belovedhave seen the two worlds as oneand that one call to and know,First, last, outer, inner, only thatbreath breathing human —Jalaluddin Rumi,

Anonymous said...

But in terms of *economic* power, China, India are on the rise

Sad to say..Japan,China,India are also sinkin.. India is dependent on outsourcing contracts(cheap labour),and the report i got is the country is suffering frm stagflation..real estate plunging...orders for new vehicles has dropped sharply..evertyhing is crumbling...yalah,we blindly tiru western economic models..the consequences of those models ,god ,bad n ugly we also rasa le..

Anonymous said...

The arrival of Islam in india sparked a very very important spiritual developemnt..The rise of devotion(bhakti) worship.Yes,especially in the south of India,in Bengal/Orissa,bhakti(devotion) blossmed..the sufi mystics,the hindu saints,were responsible for its growth and the relationship between the 2 communites were much much closer ..Did the Mughal emperors disturb the saints?Not at all!!!

John Bastille said...

Tulang Besi,

Tsk tsk, kush kush.

You said "There has been no genocide ever done by Muslims in the name of Islam."

What do call "genocide" in Arabic? Fath? of Kush?

There's plenty of cases of genocide. In fact, your prophet himself was personally involved in one Jewish town where more than 500 CAPTURED men and boys were beheaded.

But, let me not digress. You are more into the kush kush issue.

As mentioned, one muslim general by the name of Timur has invaded northern India and killed non-muslims, or what do you called it - infidels.

From your favourite source, wikipedia:

Timur himself recorded the invasions in his memoirs, collectively known as Tuzk-e-Taimuri‎. In them, he vividly described the massacre at Delhi:

In a short space of time all the people in the Delhi fort were put to the sword, and in the course of one hour the heads of 10,000 infidels were cut off. The sword of Islam was washed in the blood of the infidels, and all the goods and effects, the treasure and the grain which for many a long year had been stored in the fort became the spoil of my soldiers. They set fire to the houses and reduced them to ashes, and they razed the buildings and the fort to the ground....All these infidel Hindus were slain, their women and children, and their property and goods became the spoil of the victors. I proclaimed throughout the camp that every man who had infidel prisoners should put them to death, and whoever neglected to do so should himself be executed and his property given to the informer. When this order became known to the ghazis of Islam, they drew their swords and put their prisoners to death.

One hundred thousand infidels, impious idolaters, were on that day slain. Maulana Nasiruddin Umar, a counselor and man of learning, who, in all his life, had never killed a sparrow, now, in execution of my order, slew with his sword fifteen idolatrous Hindus, who were his captives....on the great day of battle these 100,000 prisoners could not be left with the baggage, and that it would be entirely opposed to the rules of war to set these idolaters and enemies of Islam at liberty... no other course remained but that of making them all food for the sword.

That's why that place - Hindu Kush, has its name. The Old Indian meaning.

Oh, there's plenty of cases when muslims have killed people, under their faith. So much so, it has become a "cognitive learning".

You know, when you see a snake you run away. After telling you that, statistically, most snakes are not poisonous, it doesn't matter - you would still run. Call us snake-phobia.

When you are in a public place and someone yelled "Allahu Akhbar", you must quickly run as far away as possible. Never mind, most muslim do not kill, it doesn't matter. Call us Islamophobia.

What is more important is the sanctity of life.

Anonymous said...

Tulang Besi…you would give your credibility a much needed boost if you can learn how to accept that others who do not share your views are not necessarily wrong. As with all things, opinions on any subject can vary across a number of perspectives. All of us are invariably comfortable with our own perspectives depending on how we are being socialised since childbirth.

Religions whether it is Christianity, Buddhism, Islam, Hinduism and others are man-made and it’s teachings evolved over time. For all the good that all religions can teach, it can correspondingly also bring violence, despair and misery. Please do not brush people aside just because their view differ from yours and please do not patronise them by claiming that you are factual whilst others are not. Discourse is necessary and we all can learn a little bit from each other but this can only take place if we try to avoid sledging each other.

In relation to the Mumbai terrorist incident, it is no different from the violence perpetuated by the US Army in Iraq, Israelis on the Palestinians or Chinese army on the Tibetans. History is riddled full of such examples. . Hack.. Almost 2 million Muslims died fighting each other in the Iraq-Iranian conflict. Since time immemorial, politicians and power-struggle factions will continue exploit people’s fear to meet their ulterior motives

To quite correctly point out that Islam is non-violent at the beginning of your article and to conveniently then refer to an article that might lend credence to your earlier appraisal of the incident is intellectually dishonest. It would be appropriate for you to un-equivocally condemn the violence in Mumbai for what it is.

Right is right, wrong is wrong. Violence is violence. No religion has sovereignty on right and wrong. . Any oppression of Muslims, Christians, Buddhists, Hindus or secularists is totally abominable and totally unacceptable. We all need to take a step back, take a deep breath and provide each other with a bit of space and continue the dialogue.

Anonymous said...

TO TB,

Quote "It doesn't say "all" that's disbelieve but rather "those" who disbelieve."

Reading from what you have written, you seem to be an illogical person. Please tell me the different between the two below:
1) "All" that is not muslim/disbelieve.
2) "Those" that are not muslims/disbelieve.

Mike

Tulang Besi said...

JB here's another quote from the same passage:

"Before the end of 1399, Timur started a war with Bayezid I, sultan of the Ottoman Empire, and the Mamluk sultan of Egypt. Bayezid began annexing the territory of Turkmen and Muslim rulers in Anatolia. As Timur claimed sovereignty over the Turkmen rulers, they took refuge behind him. Timur invaded Syria, sacked Aleppo and captured Damascus after defeating the Mamluk army. The city's inhabitants were massacred, except for the artisans, who were deported to Samarkand. This led to Timur's being publicly declared an enemy of Islam."

So I guess Timur doesn't just kill hindus, he kills Muslims too.

So, how is this genocide in the name of Islam, again?


Maybe JB needs to read the entire page first before drawing his conclusion.

Tulang Besi said...

"In a declared war, it is inevitable that some civilians be casualty in the cross fire. However, I am sure precautions would have been taken to ensure no bad public relations backfire on them."

So the families that lost their loved ones are supposed to understand this convention and not retaliate whenever their family members became victims of surgical bombings for fear of being labeled a terrorist?

And IDF kills civilians because they are in a war?

Plus, Muslims are not supposed to retaliate at all for fear of being labelled a terrorist.

They're supposed to accept whatever will the Western powers decides on them. Otherwise they will be labelled as terrrorist.

Wait a minute, the IRA use to detonate bombs in London, yet their leaders are always invited to attend St Patrick day's parade in Boston.

Hmmm a lot for me to think about.

Deutsch said...

To retaliate is one issue.But i think islam does not condone to retaliate against innocent ppl who happen to appear on the scene.
I think TB may be easily mistaken by others with his argument.

Anonymous said...

Hello cuckoo bird, if millions of Westerners are dunggu as you eloquently put it, then why are Islamic nations lagging behind in terms of science and technology, not to mention literacy? You're the moron, as everyone with a brain can see. Imposition of Sharia will not bring heaven on earth.

Beginilah ... you do not solve the problem of society by heaping law upon law. That's what Communism did and looked what happened. The failure of law is not solved by imposing law in another form, be it religious or otherwise. You'll have an endless cycle of turmoil which is resolved by violence and so on and so forth.

The solution is the PROPER USE of the Law.

Listen ...

The Law is never meant to be used in a totalitarian manner. It's there for the general good of society in terms of maintaining peace and order, restraining outward evil. But Law is helpless to combat inward evil. Only a moron, donkey, dumbass like you think otherwise.

Second use of the Law is to convict of sin, to "awaken" the conscience, to accuse the conscience ...

Now on Hamas, Hamas promotes a culture of martyrdom and they don't give a shit about those about to blow themselves up. They only care for their pockets. They'are just as corrupted as Fatah. The problem of the Palestinian ultimately ... the humiliation, the socio-economic problem is the responsibility of Hamas and Fatah.

To insist on the Palestine as a whole as wakaf is to perpetuate the misery of the Muslims people there. So you can bark, rave, rant all you like, laugh like a bloody fool ... but your type of thinking only serves to condemn your own Muslim people to an endless cycle of violence.

Anonymous said...

Hello cuckoo bird, if millions of Westerners are dunggu as you eloquently put it, then why are Islamic nations lagging behind in terms of science and technology, not to mention literacy? You're the moron, as everyone with a brain can see. Imposition of Sharia will not bring heaven on earth.

Beginilah ... you do not solve the problem of society by heaping law upon law. That's what Communism did and looked what happened. The failure of law is not solved by imposing law in another form, be it religious or otherwise. You'll have an endless cycle of turmoil which is resolved by violence and so on and so forth.

The solution is the PROPER USE of the Law.

Listen ...

The Law is never meant to be used in a totalitarian manner. It's there for the general good of society in terms of maintaining peace and order, restraining outward evil. But Law is helpless to combat inward evil. Only a moron, donkey, dumbass like you think otherwise.

Second use of the Law is to convict of sin, to "awaken" the conscience, to accuse the conscience ...

Now on Hamas, Hamas promotes a culture of martyrdom and they don't give a shit about those about to blow themselves up. They only care for their pockets. They'are just as corrupted as Fatah. The problem of the Palestinian ultimately ... the humiliation, the socio-economic problem is the responsibility of Hamas and Fatah.

To insist on the Palestine as a whole as wakaf is to perpetuate the misery of the Muslims people there. So you can bark, rave, rant all you like, laugh like a bloody fool ... but your type of thinking only serves to condemn your own Muslim people to an endless cycle of violence.

Anonymous said...

You want to talk about democracy, cuckoo bird? I'll tell you about democracy. Israel is a democracy surrounded with the possible exception of Jordan, by a sea of nno-democratic countries. Israel has Arab MPs, 20% of the population are Arabs ... Arabs serving in all walks of life. That's democracy. Israel has/had an Arab cabinet minister too under Ehud Olmert.

Now, is there any group planning a violent overthrow of the Israeli government? None. Zilch, as they say. But they are groups in exile who are oppsoed to the *current* governments in Iran, Saudi Arabia, Afghanistan, Egypt, etc.

Revolution, counter-revolution, violence and more violence all in the name of an ideal/ideology whatever it is called.

John Bastille said...

Tulang Besi,

Tsk tsk, kush kush.

When you said "So I guess Timur doesn't just kill hindus, he kills Muslims too.So, how is this genocide in the name of Islam, again?"

You may have demonstrated the lack of complete knowledge. I wouldn't dare to accuse you of making blatant lies, that would be rude and name-calling.

The early muslims when on raiding neighbouring townships and committed genocide. Later, they turn against themselves at started killing each other. The first and only 4 Caliphs. How did they died? Killed by their own. In a way, that how the sunnis and shias came about.

Just because Timur killed muslims, that does not mean he did not kill in the name of Islam. Islam permits and encourages the killing of non-believers as well as apostates and munafiqs.

Very simple, slay the hindus as their are idolaters. Called some muslims munafiqs and you can then kill them also.

All in the name of Islam. Or is it because of the war booty, khumus, and women? Is there a difference?

John Bastille said...

Tulang Besi,

The evidence are from the chronicles written by Timur himself, admitting that he ordered the killing of more than 100,000 prisoners.

Prisoners, TB. Captured and armless people. Males are ordered to be slayed. Women are distributed amongst the muslims warriors, just as in the days of the Prophet. That's genocide.

Whether he killed muslims, that's besides the point.

The Khmer Rouge committed genocide. Whether they killed other people or not, they still have committed genocide.

I know it's hard. All your life and upbringing, you have believed that muslims are good people, thus you are in a constant state of denial.

If a man rapes a women and goes back to have sex with his wife. He stills have committed rape. If Timur ordered the killing of hindus because they are idolaters and then also killed muslims, he still have committed genocide.

TB, you need more analogies?

Norma Kassim said...

That's a good article by Aryn Baker. your comments were well placed. Unfortunately, these days, everything is defined through the perspectives of 'western civilisation'. True Islamic teachings will survive through its sincere adherents only and we are living now witnessing the chaos perpetrate by humankind (Muslims and non Muslims alike) due to greed for life on earth which is not eternal and forgetting the reason for existence. Most do not realised the immensity and Power behold by Allah swt, Most High, Most Powerful and also Most Gracious; the oppressed and oppressors will get their rewards acording to their actions and intentions. Truth always prevail, the onus is on the person whether he accepts it or prefer to veil himself from it. As for most of us, we pray and do a lot of Dua' so that Allah swt will alleviate the pain suffered by all victims. Keep up the good work.

Anonymous said...

6. Surah Al-An'am (The Cattle)

107. Had Allah willed, they would not have taken others besides Him in worship. And We have not made you a watcher over them nor are you set over them to dispose of their affairs.
108. And insult not those whom they (disbelievers) worship besides Allah, lest they insult Allah wrongfully without knowledge. Thus We have made fair-seeming to each people its own doings; then to their Lord is their return and He shall then inform them of all that they used to do.
- Dr. Muhammad Taqi-ud-Din Al-Hilali, Ph.D. & Dr. Muhammad Muhsin Khan

6. Cattle, Livestock
107. If it had been Allah.s plan, they would not have taken false gods: but We made thee not one to watch over their doings, nor art thou set over them to dispose of their affairs.
108. Revile not ye those whom they call upon besides Allah, lest they out of spite revile Allah in their ignorance. Thus have We made alluring to each people its own doings. In the end will they return to their Lord, and We shall then tell them the truth of all that they did.

- The Meanings Of The Holy Qur'an
by Abdullah Yusufali

Anonymous said...

Pity this JB fella who seems to bea deludud moron..lebih baik si barua ni masuk hospital tanjung rambutan lah..kahkahkah..

Speaking of terorism..almost every freakin Isreali PM belonged to a terrorist group..yes,like the irgun,hagannah,the stern geng,shin beth..kahkahkah..what the LTTE's under commander karuna do to muslims and other minorities in Batticola?They practically wiped them out..Khemer Rouge,Maosism was Stalinsm..Stalinism is from which part of the world?Kahkahkah

Anonymous said...

isreal is democracy...yo pariah dog..dont make me laughlah,u talmud freak...when the country was formed some sort socialism spirit was there,under Ben Gurion..but,that socialsim spirit was only confined within the jews onlylah..kahkahkah..democracy my ass..rights,liberty,freedom of the Palestinians excist kah?F*k off u freak..u fellas cannot improve..ur falsehood is so thick n so dark,it will probably take centuries to make u all realise the true meaning of demcocracy,freedom,the divinity of man!!!

Anonymous said...

India's Congress party is ok,but they r born to be western arse lickers..The fascist Hindu Sabha/saffron brigade pulak,right frm it's beginning in 1909 was/is a western chamcha(penjilat pungkok mat salleh)..Most of it's leaders are ghouls n gremlins..betui..there is this looney tunes called Bal Thakeray from Maharastra who claims he is the Hitler of India..kahkahkah..what a looney..dunno what's the situation of Janta Dal,a socialist party..V.P.Singh wanted a revolution in 1989,to uplift the poor,the marginalised but he was toppled,and was rejected by the brahmins..big problem o,India..

Anonymous said...

You all must be jokers...there is no heaven or hell...so do something good while you're in this world....what Marx says is true....religion is a opiem...finaly it will kill all the humans....

Anonymous said...

Plus, Muslims are not supposed to retaliate at all for fear of being labelled a terrorist.

This is a psychological weak and immature statement.

Btw, the IRA did not retaliate in the name of Jesus Christ or as being Christians.

The LTTE did not fight in the name of any Hindu God or whatsoever.

The Tibetians do not retaliate (in the rare occassions they do) based on Buddhism or Buddha's teachings.

How many times do we need to repeat this fact.

If any other humans (who happened to be Muslims) who are oppressed, then they should retaliate as humans or citizen of a country, NOT as Muslims.
It is most humane by not using the Muslims label in any retaliations involving terror.

Thus Palestinians should retaliate as Palestinians and not Muslim. This will ensure that Muslims are not associated with terror.

You cannot have the best of both world in this case. It is cowardice to hide under the umbrella of Islam as a religion of peace, and the same time committing terrorism to innocents.

If you insist that any Muslims should retaliate as Muslims first, then it is inevitable that others (most normal humans) will associate (rightly or wrongly) all Muslims with terror and evil.
When non-muslims read the Quran and noted violence verses, they will naturally link the two together.
Most humans do not think deeply, so the best way is to avoid and prevent others from linking Muslims with terror and evil.

Avoidance meant, any humans of any religion should not retaliate in the name of their religion. They should retaliate as citizen of a country, i.e. Palestinians as Palestinians, China (chinese) as China (chinese), IRA as IRA, Tibetians as Tibetian (not as Buddhists), Iranians and Iranians[not as Muslims), LTTE as LTTE (not Hindu).

Anonymous said...

The LTTE did not fight in the name of any Hindu God or whatsoever.


kahkahkah..woi dungu..one of LTTE's method is to occupy and take control of temples lah woi..kahkahkah..that's how they influence the people and "sapu" money collection..what about the sikh khalsha..kahkahkah..Indira Gandhi was assisinated because she instructed Indian Army to storm the golden temple of Amritsar where the terror head Bhindrawale and his khalse brigade was using it as thier base lah..sudahlah machas..pi baca,selidik betui betui.. sekarang ada internet..jangan asyik dok main game aje..kahkahkah..

Anonymous said...

my apologies to anon of 12.13 pm..

Most of the rebels,revolutionaries are ruled by the principle of justice and equlity..and those who take arms,are prepared to be killed..this is the standard blue print for any type of revolutioanries...check out the cubans,the vietnamese,the hizbollahs,hamas..u will see the same blueprint which r willing to commit suicide,die for freedom,etc etc...

Anonymous said...

Dear Malaysian Friend...
Your own language is not yours basically. Your language borrowed heavily from other languages like Sanskrit of India. 600 years ago you all were Hindus - a religion from India. You accepted blindly what the foreigners brought here. When they brought Islam you converted into Islam. Do you have anything that is your own? You all are either Copy Cats or Slaves of foreigners' ideologies. Try to think on your own. The entire Southeast Asia was one Indianized kingdom. No Hindu ever invaded another country. No Hindu will ever force others to convert to his religion. Even Christianity borrowed heavily from Buddhist faith - which again originated from India!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nvGXsHsFRlc&feature=related

http://www.jesusisbuddha.com

http://www.hokkeko.de/other_texts/buddhism_and_christianity.htm

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buddhism_and_Christianity

http://www.thezensite.com/non_Zen/Was_Jesus_Buddhist.html

http://web.ukonline.co.uk/buddhism/jesus.htm

http://www.near-death.com/experiences/origen045.html

http://buddhistfaith.tripod.com/gospel/

We all are citizens of this world first. Try to think above religion. Try to respect other religions as well.

Anonymous said...

kahkahkah..woi dungu..one of LTTE's method is to occupy and take control of temples lah woi..kahkahkah..that's how they influence the people and "sapu" money collection..what about the sikh khalsha..kahkahkah..

You are kicking your own ass with your ignorance.

The LTTE fought in an environment where the majority of people are religious and go to temples.
It is likely they could exploit the religious sentiments of others or attack temples.

Let me repeat, THEY DO NOT INVOKE RELGIOUS VERSES OR HOLY TEXTS TO KILL OR TERRORISE OTHERS.

Give me supporting facts where the LTTE or IRA use religion as a back-up to kill and terrorise others.

On the other hand, Muslim extremists invoke (rightly or wrongly) verses from the Quran. They interpret (rightly or wrongly) that god ask them to kill infidels, so they have permission to do it and it rewarded when in heaven.

Here is the fact;

Turning his chair towards Anneke van Gogh as she watched from the public gallery, the Moroccan-born Mohammed Bouyeri said: “I don’t feel your pain. I don’t have any sympathy for you. I can’t feel for you because I think you’re a non-believer.”

Clutching a Koran, and wearing a flowing robe and a black and white chequered headscarf, Mr Bouyeri praised Allah and the prophet Mohammed before admitting the killing.


This is a clear case where a religion turn its follower into a cold-blooded beast and killer.

There are thousands of such cases, read the internet lah - dungu!

Anyone who use religion (Buddhist, Christian, Sikh etc.) to kill others must be condemned. In addition we must investigate whether the person, the religion or both at fault.

Anonymous said...

Anon 1:36 PM
my apologies to anon of 12.13 pm..
Most of the rebels,revolutionaries are ruled by the principle of justice and equlity..
Why the need to apolgise..

They can kill all they want... but don't invoke verses from any religion.

Anonymous said...

Give me supporting facts where the LTTE or IRA use religion as a back-up to kill and terrorise others..

What I said was LTTE's use temples to syphon money from the peoplelah..sheesh,so dumb ahh u fellas..c this report..



Date : 2006-03-19
LTTE grabs money-making Hindu temple in Denmark


Copenhagen, 19 March, (Asiantribune.com): Danish media is the latest to expose the strong-arm tactics of the LTTE used against Tamils in Europe. Denmark 's national media organizations have began to expose the activities of the militant organization on a regular basis. Latest exposure has focused on the latest acquisition of control over the management and running of the only Hindu temple in Denmark – Siththivinayakar Temple, located in the city of Herne.

MetroXpress a popular Danish language daily has exposed the latest ploy of the LTTE in Denmark to grab control of the Hindu temple by packing the membership of the temple society to oust the President of the temple.

According to the newspaper, this temple was constructed by demoliting an old factory, located in the area .Sabanathan Arumugam one of the founders of the Temple, a non-partisan, naturalized Tamil, remained president of the Temple society from 1992 to 2005.

Anonymous said...

Bal Adolf Thackeray and LTTE..kahkahkah

In an article appearing in Newindpress.com on August 20, 2007, Thackeray is quoted as wanting to be a dictator and the Hitler of the whole of India:

He is on record as having told the Navakal: "Yes, I am a dictator. It is a Hitler that is needed in India today." He was once asked in a television programme whether he wanted to be the Hitler of Mumbai. "Do not underestimate me," he is reported to have retorted. "I am (the Hitler) of the whole of Maharashtra and want to be of whole of India." The Hitler question was put to him in September 1996 by Outlook magazine as well during an interview. "Once you’d expressed admiration for certain facets of Hitler." "Comparison was inevitable," the interviewer prompted. Thackaray said: "I have not sent anybody to the gas chamber. If I’d been like that, you wouldn't have dared to come and interview me."[26]


[edit] Pro-Tamil Tiger Views
Thackeray has admitted that he is pro-Tamil Tiger. He says, "I am proud of the Tigers for the gallant manner in which they are fighting."[27]

He also wanted a ban on the LTTE lifted by the center-wing government.[28]

Writers Pi. Ci Kaṇēcan̲ and P.C. Ganesan write, "The LTTE may not be a communal outfit but it derives a lot of support from the Hindu Diaspora living in different countries. That is the reason why even the Shiv Sena Chief Bal Thackeray came out openly in support of the LTTE."

Anonymous said...

No Hindu ever invaded another country. No Hindu will ever force others to convert to his religion. Even Christianity borrowed heavily from Buddhist faith - which again originated from India!

.Ayo yo..another lonney bum..kahkahkah..no wonder religion is in a such a bad state..all sorts wackos have become pundits..kahkahkah...chritianity borroed havyly from buddhism..sheesh...what is buddhism u f*k know ke?India never invaded ke?Who is dat Vikramaditya..ummm?Then the hindu/buddhist empayars in indo china,malay archipelgo..macam mana dharma dharma tu sampai?Itulah dia..never bother to learn aything in their life,but out of sheer ignorance and kedunguan know only how to berbuih buih..

Indian dharma secara ringkas is all about discovering the aspects/nature of the divine and everthing else..the vedas,upanishads/gita are very clear on this issue..in fact it's not even a religion..the rishis/sages recorded their experiences,thier revelations in the form of mantric poetry poetry..yes..read this..


In ancient times the Veda was revered as a sacred book of wisdom, a great mass of inspired poetry, the work of Rishis, seers and sages, who received in their illumined minds rather than mentally constructed a great universal, eternal and impersonal Truth which they embodied in Mantras, revealed verses of power, not of an ordinary but of a divine inspiration and source. The name given to these sages was Kavi, which afterwards came to mean any poet, but at the time had the sense of a seer of truth, -- the Veda itself describes them as kavayah satyasrutah, "seers who are hearers of the Truth" and the Veda itself was called, sruti, a word which came to mean "revealed Scripture". The seers of the Upanishad had the same idea about the Veda and frequently appealed to its authority for the truths they themselves announced and these too afterwards came to be regarded as Sruti, revealed Scripture, and were included in the sacred Canon

Anonymous said...

Anon 4:14 PM, What I said was LTTE's use temples to syphon money from the peoplelah..sheesh,so dumb ahh u fellas..c this report..

This is totally irrelevant to the main point.

1. First TB stated it is double standard that we do not condenm USAF, IDF, LTTE when everyone is condemning the Mumbai incident.

2. Our point is that USAF, IDF and LTTE are not religious related. We, as normal human beings will condemn all sorts of wrong doings whether it is religious or non-religious.

3. You insisted that LTTE is religious related.

Your link only indicted that the LTTE used devious means to extort, intimidate exploit overseas Tamils.

The LTTE did not invoke any religious verses to get overseas Tamil to support them. This is just bullying by force and intimidation. Note,

Ms. Lene Espersen, Justice Minister of Denmark has already expressed deep concern over the incidents of extortion of money and intimidation of the Tamils in Denmark. He has requested those harassed to go to Police and assist them stop the extortion.
http://www.asiantribune.com/oldsite/show_news.php?id=17369


My point is that Muslim terrorists invoke (rightly or wrongly) the Quran to support their terrorism. When non-Muslims condemn these despicable acts, people like TB and "Anon 4:14 PM" will indirect support these terrorist by using non-religious related USAF,IDF, LTTE as a defence.

Anonymous said...

Now..which other religion mentions "truth hearing tuth seeing"..oh yes..Islam!!

yes..ask any hindus about swadharma,the most they will be able to tell is the holy trinity(visnu/brahma/siva),temple worship,bhakti siki siki..beyond that they go blank..ask them about vedanta,thay lagi kepla beng..whose fault?fault of the society,fault of those people who proclaimed to be guardians of hindu dharma(the brahmins le)...this is the main reason why we see so much of chaos,ill will,violence,disparity,ignorance in India..

indians have never heard of principals of equality of the divine mentioned in the vedas/upanishads..

the verses in the those books as well in the quran is all about the principals of divine in everthing..equality and justice are aspects of the supreme..yeah..in the supreme also in everything else,there is no such thing as separation lah..no differentiation... the supreme has 3 types of ONENESS..one in all,all in one,one evolving into greater oneness...but in order for this truth to be established here..siki siki modifiactions had to be done..partial/aspects of the supreme's truth in the shape of socialism,democracy turunle..in religious form it has apperead in the form islam and vedanta..it's in islam and vedanta we see the complete truth..the problem is the interpretors didnt "catch" the whole length and breadth of the truths as a result,the whole meaning/truths of the revelations are still "hanging" pending whatever..

Anonymous said...

Haiyaah..dont be a jack s lah sir..how many times must i say that LTTE uses temples to sapu duit..sheesh.in fact they do all sort of thing to make moneyle..and controlling the temple fund is one of thier methiods to acquire money..understand..sheesh..

btw,lTTE maybe atheists,but the saffron brigade..u know,like the sevaks,RSS units do chant lots of mantras, do lots of homa pujas..and they next thing is TERROR!!

Anonymous said...

Hah, u go and asklah those ultra othodox rabbis habits of chanting this and that before executing certain tasks..if u got the balls send lah an e mail to the widow of Yitzhak Rabin..

John Bastille said...

Double standard

Tulang Besi questioned as to why the Free People are prejudiced against muslims in general. Double standard is practiced.

Well, let's see. According to the Medina Charter, Clause #13 states that "No Believer will help a non-Believer against a Believer.

What a minute. Isn't this double standard?

Anyway, that statement resonates very soundly in the today's world. No matter how atrocious a crime is, whether it is beheading, mutilating, killing, etc, perpetrated by a muslim against a non-muslim, muslims in general will not go against the muslim terrorists.

They will be more interested in the backlash of Islamophobia. a while more, the justifications will arrive. The muslims are oppressed. The Palestinians are oppressed. The cursed Jews.

Sure, they will say things like "Islam prohibits the killing of innocent people". But as mentioned, Islam's interpretation of innocent is very different from the Free People's understanding.

Non-believers, apostates and munafiqs are fair game to be killed. One example, when the muslims were outraged because of Danish cartoons, a nun in Africa was killed.

How do you link a nun in Africa to the Danish cartoon? How do you link 3 beheaded Indonesian schoolgirls to Palestine?

It's a kind of double standard that the Free People cannot understand.

This shows that when the muslims are outraged, any non-innocent person can be killed. It does not have to be linked to the act.

This goes back to the early muslims where the entire town or tribe is exterminated or banished if an accusation of treachery is made.

With the same double standard, the muslims have very selective memory on the atrocities perpetrated against muslims only. They will whine about the sufferings of Palestinians. Bosnia? Yes. They still complained about the Crusaders. They still remembered the fall of Andalusia.

But they don't give a damn about Rwanda. They couldn't be bothered about the atrocities that US army inflicted on Vietnam. The rest of the non-muslims can go to hell.

In conclusion, they practiced double standards towards believers and non-believers as well as on their selective memory on history.

Thus, the law of nature took its course. What goes around, comes around.

John Bastille said...

Dear Mike,

I share the same question with you.

What is the difference between:

1. Kill all non-believers ...

and

2. Kill those that disbelieve ...

Tulang Besi's defence lies on "It doesn't say "all" that's disbelieve but rather "those" who disbelieve."

When I argued with Christians on the statement "Love your neighbour as you love yourself", the arguments were on the definition of "love", as in whether "agape" or "philos".

But with muslims, the arguments tend to center on the definition of "who can be killed" or "who must you kill".

Issues like the size of stones used for stoning people to death are also discussed in details. Not too big for they die fast. Not too small that they cannot be killed.

Oh well, God is Most Merciful, Most Forgiving.

Tulang Besi said...

JB says:

,The early muslims when on raiding neighbouring townships and committed genocide. Later, they turn against themselves at started killing each other. The first and only 4 Caliphs. How did they died? Killed by their own. In a way, that how the sunnis and shias came about.

Hmm, let me guess, this came right out of your "guide to Islamic genocide handbook".

Word is, the book is written by you when you receive divine inspiration after finishing a bottle of scotch.

But, again, where does it say the killings are made in the name of islam?

I am still struggling to find out.

Tulang Besi said...

JB,

It's hard to say timur acted on behalf of Islam when he himself is considered as enemy of Islam at that time.

Tulang Besi said...

JB says:

"Tulang Besi's defence lies on "It doesn't say "all" that's disbelieve but rather "those" who disbelieve."

Ok my next question, the preposition used is "allazina" in the verse.

Since you say you know so much about the scriptures, tell me what "allazina" in the verse means?

Or, are u just relying on the translation of the 09:29?

Remember translation of the quran IS NOT THE QURAN.

Please answer this question first JB before u come to other conclusion.

Tulang Besi said...

Jb says:

,"Well, let's see. According to the Medina Charter, Clause #13 states that "No Believer will help a non-Believer against a Believer.

What a minute. Isn't this double standard?"


Or maybe if one were to read the Charter in it's original language that is Arabic, it means, no Believer should help a non-believer to BETRAY another BELIEVER.

Which is actually what is understood by many Islamic scholar.

Or JB has found the original charter that is wrtiten in English?

Tulang Besi said...

JB, how's this for an analysis of the Medina Charter

"One of the constitution's more interesting aspects was the inclusion of the Jewish tribes in the Ummah, the Jewish tribes were "one community with the believers," but they "have their religion and the Muslims have theirs."[11]"

^ Jonathan Berkey, The Formation of Islam: Religion and Society in the Near East, 600-1800, Cambridge University Press, p.64

Tulang Besi said...

Oh JB,

Here's another analysis on the Medina Charter

"The Medina Constitution also instituted peaceful methods of dispute resolution among diverse groups living as one people but without assimilating into one religion, language, or culture.[14] Welch in Encyclopedia of Islam states: "The constitution reveals his Muhammad's great diplomatic skills, for it allows the ideal that he cherished of an ummah (community) based clearly on a religious outlook to sink temporarily into the background and is shaped essentially by practical considerations." [15]" ^ Welch, Encyclopedia of Islam, Muhammad article

Tulang Besi said...

People like Ali Sina and John Bastilles demonstrates many weaknesses with regards to their understanding of islam namely:

a. their inability to understand Islamic text in it's original language

b. Even the translations they take, they are unable to grasp the meaning behind the translation.

c. And they pick and choose parts of translated source that they then misinterpret to suit they anti islam desires.

So much for healthy debate. People like JB is a disgrace to the word debate.

Anonymous said...

Hmm, let me guess, this came right out of your "guide to Islamic genocide handbook".

Word is, the book is written by you when you receive divine inspiration after finishing a bottle of scotch.
--------------------------------
lol!1Classic!!Ok,here is somthing from a texbook..

Causes for the birth of Bhakti(devotion) Movement.Prior to the coming of Islam to India,Hinduism,Jainism and Buddhism were the dominant religions.Hinduism lost its simplicity.Many philosophical schools appeared.Two different sects ie,vaisnavism and saivism also appeared within Hinduism.In course of time Sakti worship also came into existance.Comman people were confused on the way of worshipping God.When Islam came to India,the hindus observed many ceremonies and worshipped many gods and goddesses.There were all sorts of superstitious beliefs among them.Their religion had become complex in nature.Added to these,the caste system,untouchability,blind worshipping and inequality in society caused dissensions among different sections of the people.On the other hand Islam preached unity of God and brotherhood of man.It preached equality of man before God.The oppressed comman people and the people branded as low castes were naturally attracted towards islam.it only increased the rivalry among religions.fanaticism,bigotry and religious intolerance began to raise their heads.It was to remove such evils,religious leaders appeared in different paths of India.They preached pure devotion called Bhakti to attain GOD..

Principles of bhakti movement..1.God is One 2.to worship god, man should serve humanity 3.all men are equal 4.worshipping god with devotion is better than performing religious ceremonies and going on pilgrimages and 5.caste distinctions and superstitious practices are to be given up.The hindu saints of the bhakti movement and the muslim saints of the sufi movement became more liberal in their outlook.They wanted to get rid of the evils which had crept into thier religions..

Effects of Bhakti movement:The bhakti movement had brought the hindus and the muslims closer to each other.the equality concept preached by the leaders reduced the rigidity of the caste system to a certain extent.the suppressed people gained a feeling of self respect.The reformers preached in local languages.it led to the development of vernacular literature.They composed hymns and songs in the languages spoken by the people.Therefore there was a remarkable growth of literature in all the langauges.a new langauge urdu,a mixture of persian and hindi was developed.the bhakti movement freed the comman people from the tyranny of the priests.It checked the excesses of polytheism.it encouraged the spirit of toleration.the gap between the hindus and the muslims was reduced.they began to live amicably together. It emphasised the value of a pure life of charity and devotion.Finally it improved the morals and spiritual ways of life of the medieval society.it provided an example for the future generation to live with the spirit of toleration

Anonymous said...

The US and the Genocide in Rwanda 1994
Evidence of Inaction
William Ferroggiaro, Editor

August 20, 2001

Despite overwhelming evidence of genocide and knowledge as to its perpetrators, United States officials decided against taking a leading role in confronting the slaughter in Rwanda. Rather, US officials confined themselves to public statements, diplomatic demarches, initiatives for a ceasefire, and attempts to contact both the interim government perpetrating the killing and the RPF. The US did use its influence, however, at the United Nations, but did so to discourage a robust UN response (Document 4 and Document 13). In late July, however, with the evidence of genocide littering the ground in Rwanda, the US did launch substantial operations—again, in a supporting role—to assist humanitarian relief efforts for those displaced by the genocide.

http://www.gwu.edu/~nsarchiv/NSAEBB/NSAEBB53/index.html

Anonymous said...

Now,now,where is that fella who said chritianity borrowed a lot from buddhim..kahkahkah..ignorance plus the desire to lick mat salleh's arse is killing them..

Buddhism shoots straight to the "immobile" static aspect of the absolute/supreme..in the holy quran we see the dynamic aspect of the absolute/supreme,manifesting thru time and space..sustaining/maintining all of the supreme's creations as ONE..and divine power is one of the aspects of the supreme..divine power cannot tolerate any form falsehood ok..that's the reason why some of the "brutal" verses mentioned in the quran are actually the divine's wrath..the divine power is very swift,and has tremendous,irisistable intensity supported by bliss/delight/ananda..ok...:-)

Anonymous said...

Hats off to you TB

I have been following your pages for a while now and I really respect your efforts. It must not be easy especially when you have a baby in the house.

I read lots of blogs but rarely comment. Mostly because my knowledge in almost everything is very limited. Especially religious issues. Sometimes I do want to say something then later find out that what I wanted to say has already been said by someone else.

This particular topic is very interesting indeed. I feel that you have a lot more to say to rebutt many views in the so-called debate but could not because of time constraint, and not because you lack the knowledge. I wish I had your knowledge since I have time. In your responses, especially to the likes of John Bastilles who clearly have time but I guess not used to good use to do enough research in order to be more open-minded, are not always clear. But I never doubt your knowledge because I believe you have studied enough to be considered 'an authority' in the subject.

We hear this all the time: to repair you car, you go to a mechanic. To seek medication, you go to a doctor or pharmacist, and not to a mechanic. To discuss quantum physics, you see an expert in that field, and not a school kid. In all aspects of life, we have the experts who undergo numerous years of training to become an authority. Sadly, when it comes to religion issues, we all tend to believe any tom dick or harry just to prove the so-called point that when it comes to religion, it is between God and individuals. I wonder why the experts in religions are always shunned even though we know they have studied for many years in the subject matter.

Take the Quran. It is in Arabic and scholars spend a lifetime to understand the content. Along comes a person not well-versed with Arabic at all and say something ridiculous or out of context. Suddenly, there will be thousands of people who would champion this person blindly. Most do it without understanding anything but I guess they do it because here they see someone who is championing their 'knowledge' of how bad the religion of Islam is. It is funny to read even in these blogs how easily people jump unto the bandwagon to smear Islam further, just because some newbie is saying something they feel strongly about. These people do not take the trouble to investigate or do research to check whether this newbie is actually saying the truth. How easily people are led by the pied piper, if you may.

I wish you good luck and steadfastness in painting the truth. May Allah swt provide you the guidance. Salam

Anonymous said...

[Yusufali 2:284] To Allah belongeth all that is in the heavens and on earth. Whether ye show what is in your minds or conceal it, Allah Calleth you to account for it. He forgiveth whom He pleaseth, and punisheth whom He pleaseth, for Allah hath power over all things.

[Yusufali 3:18] There is no god but He: That is the witness of Allah, His angels, and those endued with knowledge, standing firm on justice. There is no god but He, the Exalted in Power, the Wise.

(These verses are combinations of 2aspects of the supreme..the supreme wisdom/knowledge and supreme power)

John Bastille said...

Tulang Besi,

Wow. I am amazed at your high level of creativity. First, I'm dumb. Then, I'm JB the Blooper, and now you take the assumption that I drink scotch. Keep it coming. You may use expletives if you like.

Scotch? Nah. I prefer wine. Made from grapes, not dates, just like your prophet's favourite drink (that is before alcohol become haram).

You are one truly brilliant debater.

When I made a statement, you called me a liar and imaginative. You needed proof.

When I presented some facts, you said that I cut and paste.

Now you want to talk arabic?

Brilliant moves. You will surely be the winner. It may be a Pyrrhic victory, but victory to you nontheless.

So, we are moving to Level II of semantics of arguing ya?

By the way, before I prepare a reply to you, can you please educate me on how many Books Allah has given to mankind? I mean, besides the Quran.

Are these other books such as Al-Kitab, not the ones that have been distorted by bloody Christians, that have been given by Allah to mankind, also in Arabic?

I appreciate this help, as you challenged me.

Regards,

John Bastille said...

Fantastic revelation!!

Tulang Besi explained that the Charter #13, in it's original language that is Arabic, it means, no Believer should help a non-believer to BETRAY another BELIEVER.

And because of this, there is no DOUBLE STANDARD?

Can a believer help a non-believer to BETRAY another non-believer? If can, then double standard. If cannot, then the verse is faulty.

Wow, two different standards for two categories of people but not called DOUBLE STANDARD.

Fantastic revelation. I should also learn Arabic. With that, I can intimidate other people. All I have to say is - You know Arabic or not? Don't know? That don't talk, stupid.

Excellent. In that case, can Malaysia remains under a secular government? We do not want theocratic state. That's my primary point.

If we are under theocratic rule, the ones assuming power will just dictate and no one can question.
Must learn arabic.

Anonymous said...

Or maybe if one were to read the Charter in it's original language that is Arabic, it means, no Believer should help a non-believer to BETRAY another BELIEVER.

haiyaah..ini banyak senang oh..it means those who are believers in HIM should not kowtim with those party lovin cuban cigar puffing animals who spend all the time blablaing noncents to "turnover" those who have faith in HIM..how's dat for my version of explantion of the charter..kahkahkah

Anonymous said...

Hey,i got an idea..how about sending kinky babes and their ultra funky punk boprends to an ulta orthodox jewish neigbourhood..hehe..it's sure gonna be fun..kahkahkah

Anonymous said...

Do people seriusly think Islam is about one super duper arab deity who gave revelations to Nabi(pbuh?)..lord have mercy on us,if this is the general perception..and to all indians(especially those under the influence of hitler/himmler/goering rashtra..kahkahkah) haha..u fellas have no idea whatsover...the powers/aspects/dynamis in islam are also mentioned in hindu dharmalah woi..the only differnce ..quran is in arabic..hindu sacred books are in sankrit...dats whylah the mightiest of the mighty hindu rishis in India welcomed/wanted the rebirth of Islam ..faham tak dunggus!!!

Anonymous said...

[Yusufali 2:29] It is He Who hath created for you all things that are on earth; Moreover His design comprehended the heavens, for He gave order and perfection to the seven firmaments; and of all things He hath perfect knowledge...

aah,this is another aspect of the supreme consciousness..the supreme designer..the most perfect builder..actually aah,all the 99 names/attributes of ALLAH/THE SUPREME,are aspects/powers of the the supreme's consciousness..ok..

Anonymous said...

[Yusufali 7:3] Follow (O men!) the revelation given unto you from your Lord, and follow not, as friends or protectors, other than Him. Little it is ye remember of admonition.

perhaps the charter was based on this revelation..yes folks,it's not one mono super duper arab god..the revelations given to Nabi Muhammad(SAW) was from the SUPREME LORD HIMSELF...

Bukit Chandan said...

Dear TB,

May Allah s.w.t. gives you guidance & assistance to explain and expound Islam to the unbelievers, inshaAllah. Keep up the good work!

Best Regards.........

Bukit Chandan said...

Dear TB,

May Allah s.w.t. gives you guidance & assistance to explain and expound Islam to the unbelievers, inshaAllah. Keep up the good work!

Best Regards.........

Tulang Besi said...

JB rants:

"Can a believer help a non-believer to BETRAY another non-believer? If can, then double standard. If cannot, then the verse is faulty."

DOes it say anything about disallowing believers from helping non believers?

This is what happens when people use their imagination in understanding Islam.

Plus, does the charter says anything about allowing believers to betray non believers?

JB's hate for Islam forces him to use his wild imagination to find faults with Islam.

Remember his "hindu Kush" example. That's not his only blooper. Trust me.

JB, go and get some couch time. You badly need it.

Tulang Besi said...

Do people seriusly think Islam is about one super duper arab deity who gave revelations to Nabi(pbuh?)..lord have mercy on us,if this is the general perception

Nope, Islam is about Revelation sent down by God to his Prophet Mohd SAW who happens to be an Arab.

What's the problem?

Tulang Besi said...

Another blooper from Ali Sina and JB.

In Islam, we do not take the Quran alone and drive 'conclusion" from it.

We will take the Quran, the Sunnah, Ijma and Qiyas and then only we derive conclusion from it.

JB the ignoramous took 09:29 and inserts his own wild imaginative interpretation when the truth is when taken along with As Sunnah we find the real context of the verse.

And it nothing like how JB understands it. Far from it.

also, people like Ali Sina and JB relies on bits of pieces of Islamic scholarship, which they pick and choose to support their twisted conclusion.

So, that explains why JB can commit such a major blooper like the Hindu Kush example.

at the end of the day, they only demonstrate their abject ignorance of islam.

Anonymous said...

TB Said: JB's hate for Islam forces him to use his wild imagination to find faults with Islam.

I do not sense that JB has an element of hate for Islam. Providing constructive criticisms is not hate. As i read it, JB is not anti-Islam but rather pro-human.

I think you used the 'hate' excuse because JB is exposing some weakness in you are subconsciously fending him off.

If you think JB points is off, just present your counter arguments.

Frankly, IMO, when you arbitrary assign 'hate'(when the person do not declare it himself) to a non-believer, you are indirectly promoting terrorism.

You can experiment on your own terrorism.
Say, you and JB goes to Masjid on Friday after prayers and you point to him and SHOUT as loud as you can "This person hate Islam".
It is likely JB will be lynched, bashed and possibily killed on the spot.

Don't be a coward and stop using the vulgar(in this blog context) word 'hate' to invoke evil sentiments. Be a man and argue the points.

Anonymous said...

Another blooper from Ali Sina and JB. Another unsubstantiated outcry against Ali Sina.

To be fair, list down all of Ali Sina's interpretations of the Quran and take a percentage errors you think he made.

If Ali Sina had made 600 errors out of 1000 interpretations then it obvious he is wrong.

But, spiritual issues are very subjective and even the most learned can be uncertain. At present different experts factions in the Muslim and Christian world are still debating their own religious ambiguous issues.

After all, faith is belief without proof or reason, so anything goes from common sense to the most ridiculous.

IMO, most of the issues that Ali Sina debated are ambiguous and depending on context. This may only involve a very small percentage of the Quran interpretations.

Simply brushing off Ali Sina without proper arguments is cowardly. If you think Ali Sina is wrong, challenge him to his USD$100,000 for yourself, if not for a charity.

When Ali Sina is left unchallenged since 2001, you cannot blame non-Muslims for thinking he is right with his rational arguments on the issues.

Another similar challenge is James Randi's USD1,000,000 for anyone to prove (unders cientific conditions) that the paranormal exists. So far no one has been able to take that USD 1 million. If you can prove God exists, you can claim the USD$ 1 million. (RM3 millions !!)

Note:
At JREF, we offer a one-million-dollar prize to anyone who can show, under proper observing conditions, evidence of any paranormal, supernatural, or occult power or event.
http://www.randi.org/site/index.php/1m-challenge.html

Tulang Besi said...

I do not sense that JB has an element of hate for Islam. Providing constructive criticisms is not hate. As i read it, JB is not anti-Islam but rather pro-human.

I think you used the 'hate' excuse because JB is exposing some weakness in you are subconsciously fending him off.


yes pro human that he's willing to lie against Islam. Is that the measure of his desperation. He needs to deface Islam so as to advance his secular humanists ideology.

You can't be a secular humanists if you don't hate Islam.

That's the rule.

Tulang Besi said...

Isn't being pro humans means you are anti religion because religion is viewed as a divider among humans.

Tulang Besi said...

As for Ali Sina, please go and read my previous comments.

with just one glance, i've managed to rebut effectively 3 of his so call points.

Easily.

Anonymous said...

Isn't being pro humans means you are anti religion because religion is viewed as a divider among humans.

Humanist ideology??

You are quick to find enemies to fight with. Check the programming in your brainlah.

Pro-human meant reducing behaviors down to COMMOM human values and humanity.

Meaning when deliberating on what is goodness, it meant good for all humans regardless of their religious or secular affiliations.

It also meant, when every human eat, they will shit as well. There is no such things as humanist-shit, Buddhist-shit or religious-shit when a human goes to the toilet.

Anonymous said...

As for Ali Sina, please go and read my previous comments.

with just one glance, i've managed to rebut effectively 3 of his so call points.


Why brag here unilaterally.. and blowing your own horn..

For a start, put forward your 3counter arguments in FFI forum and cross reference it in your blog.

If Ali Sina notice you are really good and solid with Quranic knowledge, i am sure he will take you on, and you will have a chance to get him to remove his site plus earn yourself USD50,000, and USD50,000 for me as introducer of you to his challenge.

Anonymous said...

What's the problem?
It was meant for those who think that there is particular arab god..u know..there are many who think like dat..in fact human in general do think like that.. actually i have read that the proper way of addressing god now is in capital letters GOD..

GLOIRE A TOI SEIGNEUR!

Anonymous said...

But, spiritual issues are very subjective and even the most learned can be uncertain

Kahkahkahkah..k0k n bull..the eastern methods r totally differnt frm the methods of western intellectual mumbo jumbo when in comes to spirituality.. yes..we have been poisoned by western methods for far too long..so much so,asian religious/spiritual scholars have adopted the mat salleh way as the way to decipher the meanings in holy scriptures..how on earth can one use limited mental logic to decipher the trascedental..hah.. morons??!!True,there has always been scholars but,there were also the mystics,the saints,the sages who obtained the clarity of the meanings thru realisations/experinces!!!!

Anonymous said...

To All Muslims Out There,

When non-muslim contribute comments to Islamic related issues, it does not imply that they 'hate' Islam.

Note: Nevertheless, in any group there will be a small percentage ( 1 in a 1000) of psychos who will hate anything that is not to their liking. These abnormal people should be dealt within psychological disorder and not in normal religious issues.

Non-muslims participated in discussions of muslim related issues because their lives are inconvenienced and effected in some way or another by the actions of some (not all) Muslims.

For example, there is so much violence that can be attributed to Muslims (by minority extremists) who do not hesistate in invoking verses from their holy texts when committing violence.
http://thereligionofpeace.com/index_files/TROP.jpg

It is only normal for any human to question the above 'cause and effect' and be wary of the possibility of danger that would come their way uninvited.

For example, based on past events, non-muslims and muslims alike are potentially expose to danger of being bombed or killed by Muslim terrorists anywhere on Earth.

Personally, nowadays, i am wary whenever i am not plane and travelling overseas.

Humans will comment on anything that is negative to their life.
It is a natural human trait to focus on the negative due to its possible threat to one's survival.
If there is any pain, or uncomfort in your body your attention will be promply direct to it.

That is the reason why bad news sell. When CNN and all the other News channel broadcast bad news, it does not mean they hate the people or beliefs involve in those negative events.

These days, Muslim extremists and activities occupy a big % of the news and discussions. Negative actions will invite negative comments. Most of the negative comments maybe due to IGNORANCE but definitely not HATE.

When Muslims made negative comments about Buddhism, Christianity, Hinduism, etc., these religion do not normally use the word 'hate', but rather 'ignorance'.

TB, i suggest you avoid the word "hate" unless some declare it.
Otherwise, it would better for you to ban non-muslims (as most will have some negative then + comments) from commenting on your blog.

Anonymous said...

In fact The Quran has given clues ,the methods to feel/realise the divine..one is total surrender/submission to HIM,and to "open up" the heart center(isnt there a verse in the quran which says knowledge can be obtained thru the heart?)..then there is constant prayers/aspirations..the union of those methods,ie total surrender,constant prayers,openings of the heart's center(aspirations) r for those who r..what can i say..have the tremendous desire to live in GOD'S presence

Anonymous said...

mystics,the saints,the sages who obtained the clarity of the meanings thru realisations/experinces!!!!

I acknowledge my thanks to all the saints, sages and spiritual savants who had contributed to uplift the spiritual knowledge of mankind to date.

Like logic and rational thinking there is a limit to those realisations.

At least some Buddhists understood that limitation when they stated,
"Kill the Buddha when you see Him".
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/K%C5%8Dan#Killing_the_Buddha

There is no such thing as absolutely absolute. There cannot be any absolute certainty of anything, spiritual realisation or otherwise.

Anonymous said...

The Great Secret-by Hhafiz
God was full of Wine last night,So full of wine
That He let a great secret slip.He said:
There is no man on earthWho needs a pardon from Me -
For there is really no such thing,No such thingAs Sin!
That Beloved has gone completely Wild-He has poured Himself into me!
I am Blissful and Drunk and Overflowing.
Dear world,Draw life from my Sweet Body,
Dear wayfaring souls,Come drink your fill of liquid rubies,For God has made my heartAn Eternal Fountain!

there r no words to describe the majesty of this poem..no words..Hafiz in bliss!!

yes..even the worst transgressors are pardoned because THE LORD IS THE MOST COMPASSIONATE..betui tak?

Anonymous said...

There is no such thing as absolutely absolute. There cannot be any absolute certainty of anything, spiritual realisation or otherwise.


kahkahkah..haiyoh..nevermindlah..u go ahead live n breathe in ur limted mental kingdom..no such thing as absolute absolute..sheeh..sudahlah..go to a nearest pub and have couple of drinks..kahkahkah..

Tulang Besi said...

Humanist ideology??

You are quick to find enemies to fight with. Check the programming in your brainlah.

Pro-human meant reducing behaviors down to COMMOM human values and humanity.


So who actually decides what is human and what is not?

In the case of islam, it's God who decides.

But what about in your case? Who decides what is human and what is not?

Can u please fill me in?

Anonymous said...

Everything is decided by GOD..islam,non islam,everthing is under HIS COMMAND..It's HE who has created,it's He who sustains,it's HE who has the total wisdom/ knowledge of everything..

Anonymous said...

In fact The Quran has given clues ,the methods to feel/realise the divine..one is total surrender/submission to HIM,and to "open up" the heart center

No problem with mrely the above.
Faith is a natural neccesity for most humans.

Faith is belief without proof or reason. check up Dictionary.com

There is no problem with any beliefs without proof or reasons if they are done personally and privately.

There is only a problem when faith without proof or reason, is practiced and encroach, imposed and inconvenient on the will of others.

Look at Buddhism and Hinduism as example, where got cause major problems with others. Christianity at present is also very confined to its own followers, except
in minor cases when it a pest to others.

Anonymous said...

Mental/logic cuts to pieces the infinite..and we take those pieces and declare as those whole truth..kahkahkah..mampuih..we drown in our littleness..

Anonymous said...

Care to explain what is Hindusim?

Anonymous said...

These are they who are conscious of the much falsehood in the world;they grow in the house of Truth,they are the strong invincible sons of the infinity-Rig Veda

yo explain this...

Anonymous said...

Why keeping quiet?Since u say u know buddhism,and hinduism..ok..explain what is SAT,CHIT,ANANDA..what's brahman,parabrahman..adisakti..nirguna brahman..

Anonymous said...

it's God who decides.

I have no problem with the concept of god for those who have the inclinations and need to believe in God.
I would strongly recommend God to anyone who need him.

But when it boils down to the crux or crunch of the matter, then i would expect proof for the existence of god.

So far, there is no convincing proof for the existence of god.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proof_of_god

Faith is belief not based on proof and reason. There is no way anyone can ascertain god existence based on faith.

Thus when you use god as an authority it does not jive with me.
Do it yourself, but don't expect me to obey, as you would obey your god.

Anonymous said...

Does not jive wit u..the next best thing is to listen to Bee Gee's jive talkin..u go ahead and do that..kahkahkah

Anonymous said...

Do it yourself, but don't expect me to obey, as you would obey your god.


hah TB..What did i tel ya..folks do think there is some sort of super duper arab god..kahkah..yo man..there is also vijanam..sat,cit,ananda,vijanam..what r those ..pal..didnt u say u know hindusim and buddhism?

Anonymous said...

Supreme Existance(SAT)..Supreme Consciousness(CIT)..Supreme bliss(Ananda)..Supramental knowledge(Vijanam)..revelations of the quran is from this supreme height/level..the plane/langit of pure gold...yes..it's the supreme LORD himself poured down the revelations to Nabi Muhamad(SAW)..actually,all the 99 attributes of Allah can be braketed into 4 major supreme powers that are stationed in the plane of pure/supreme existance,pure/suprem delight,pure/suprem consciouness..no sir..i aint joking..ini bukan main main.. disko kaki man pi eh?

Anonymous said...

In Indian philosophy, the Absolute is conceived of as being Sat-Chit-Ananda, of the nature of pure Being, Consciousness, and Bliss. On the basis of this, Sri Aurobindo speaks of the "Upper Hemisphere" or "Supreme [Absolute-Divine] Nature" which constitutes infinite and unitary existence, and which he divides into the planes of Pure Being (Sat), Consciousness-Force (Chit-Tapas), Bliss (Ananda), and Truth-Consciousness ("Supermind"). The latter constitutes a somewhat more manifest level then Sachchidananda (Being-Consciousness-Bliss), a sort of "logos" or "Divine Mind" between the true Unmanifest and the Creation. But all these realities are eternally pre-existent, and constituting the modes or qualities of the Absolute. At the level of the Absolute, there is no differentiation. As Sri Aurobindo puts it,

"Existence is Consciousness and there can be no distinction between them; Consciousness is Bliss and there can be no distinction between them;"
[The Life Divine, p.126].
Here existence is "solely and simply a pure identity in oneness." [Ibid, p.320]. So there is only one Sachchidananda, but this contains within Itself specific modes. And although these three attributes - Sat-Chit-Ananda, existence, Consciousness, and Bliss - are in inseparable unity, each

"can stand in front of the others and manifest its own spiritual determinates, for each has its primal aspects or inherent self-formulations, although all of these together are original to the triune Absolute"

Anonymous said...

The Supreme Mother
The Mother is Supreme Consciousness and Power, the Divine in its Consciousness-Force. The Ishwara or Lord of the Cosmos - the Supreme Personality of God (Purushottama) behind all the Gods and Powers - comes into manifestation out of the Mother who takes her place beside him as the Cosmic Shakti.
[The Mother, pp.64-5
The transcendent Shakti

"stands above the worlds and links the creation to the ever unmanifest mystery of the Supreme"
[The Mother, p.20
"At the summit of manifestation...there are worlds of infinite existence, consciousness, force and bliss over which the Mother stands as the unveiled eternal Power. All beings there live and move in an ineffable completeness and unalterable oneness, because she carries them safe in her arms forever."

Anonymous said...

[Yusufali 112:2] Allah, the Eternal, Absolute;

Anonymous said...

In Indian philosophy, the Absolute is conceived of as being Sat-Chit-Ananda, of the nature of pure Being, Consciousness, and Bliss.

Hey.. i (not religious) have very high regards for Hinduism as it emerges to suit the spirituality of the masses from kindergarten to Phd. level. In Hindusim, one has a choice to choose what is best for oneself.

But this is NOT a thread for the promotion of Hinduism lah.

John Bastille said...

Tulang Besi,

It's not your real name, is it?

Anyway, I appreciate your rebuttal to my statements, even though it is just by calling me names, such as liar and anti-Islam. Seriously, you cannot just stick to the "Islam prohibits the killing of innocents" and claim that any statements against it are lies.

I'm a Gwailo. I cannot speak arabic. You can help me translate then. All of your readers can learn more about Islam. Isn't it the purpose of debating?

My presence at your website gives you the opportunity to defend Islam and display your prowess in Islamic knowledge. This will attract serious debaters to you. You will also win pahala.

Who knows, you may win some conversion to Islam. Myself, maybe? Wei M is already leaning, if not already one.

If you keep brushing me off and claim that what I said are lies, you win personal scores and get to keep your pride. Your readers will believe that I am dumb, a liar, and a drunk.

But they will leave this website, not knowing the true Islam.

They will only know what is NOT Islam. Your opportunity .....

John Bastille said...

Tulang Besi,

Double standard means when people apply different standards to different categories of people.

In Islam, whether under the Medina Charter or the syariah laws, two different standards or laws are applied to two different categories of people - the believers or non-believers.

That's double standard. How do you say it in arabic. Thus, Islam practices double standards to two different groups of people. Am I translating right?

Therefore, the Free People, humbly reject double standards, be they from Islam or from other form of governance. We also reject Nazism because they promote Ketuanan Bangsa Aryan. We reject the Japanese Imperial Army's rule because they promote the Supremacy and the Divinehood of the Japanese Emperor.

Anonymous said...

But this is NOT a thread for the promotion of Hinduism lah.

kahkahkha..my dear whoever u r..there is not such thing as hinduism anyway..kahkahkah..itulah dia..ignorance..nothing but ignorance..alo..the thing which called hinduism is known as sanatan dharma..the laws/principles of brahman..the supreme..the absolute..the deathless self..hah..what's the use of blablaing for the sake of blablaing..eh?the objective is to understnd "something'..to clear doubts..u agree ?but since,moronism is the dharma of today..my guess is it will take sometime to digest truth..

Anonymous said...

Hey.. i (not religious) have very high regards for Hinduism as it emerges to suit the spirituality of the masses from kindergarten to Phd. level.

vast majority of hindus are not even in kindergarden level..look at the society,the practices that has been going on in that subcontinent..vedanta,which should be the "practical" religion hasnt taken off..till today..caste wars,the plight of the untouchables,the marginalisetion of the minorities,fear,supertition,rituals and customs that should be dead and buried still excists(wanna know how brides are burned to death because of dowry..umm?what about child labour issue in india..still going on and op )..these are all unhindu..all against the spirit of sanatan dharma..ignorant europeans,whose spirtual levels are at ground zero think everthing is holy in india..the greatness of the country is due to it's discoveries in the past..what we see today r riots,mobs goin berserk,economic disparity,hunger n disease..in other words functioning anarchy!!

so if u think,oo..what a beutiful tolerant country india is..i say f*k u..other countries have progressed far ahead,far better then this land of swadharma!

John Bastille said...

Tulang Besi,

Just like you, we have very strong opinion about issues.

I didn't claim that muslims are the only ones in the entire earth that committed atrocities but state that muslims "also" committed atrocities.

Let's come back to muslim genocide in India, that has given rise to the Old Indian meaning of Hindu Kush. Sigh, kush kush again. Alas, Allah is most forgiving, most merciful.

Okay, so here we understand and agreed that genocide has happened. Timur ordeed the killing of more than 100,000 hindus. Thus, I stand by my statement that there has been genocide perpetrated by muslims. Under a muslim general.

Now, the next phase it, did he do it in the name of Islam?

Signs that Timur acted in the name of Islam.

Sign #1
He claimed so. In his own records, he stated that "The sword of Islam was washed in the blood of the infidels"

Sign #2
His actions and orders resonates the same as the early muslims during the days of the Prophet when they raided neighbouring towns.

They killed all males, including the surrendered prisoners. They distributed all the females to muslim warriors. Children are sold as slaves.

City treasures or war booty is claimed. Khumus collected.

Timer stated that :.. and all the goods and effects, the treasure and the grain which for many a long year had been stored in the fort became the spoil of my soldiers."

Sign #3
He was a muslim. He actions resonates the fighting for Allah's Cause

However, you asked a very crucial question - how can Timur killed in the name of Islam if he is called a great enemy of Islam.

Now, this one, I am not too sure since there are no centralized authority in Islam. Throughout history, muslims kill muslims and both sides claimed the under name of Islam. Sunnis vs. Shias, Iran vs. Iraq, Hazari, Sufis.

By the manner that muslims call each other munafiqs and syirik, almost all muslims become "also" enemies of Islam. UMNO muslims are munafiq, Lina Joy is an apostate, etc. Al Qaeda calling the Saudi monarchs the enemies of Islam. Tulang Besi, perhaps, there is someone out there who would accuse you of being an enemy of Islam.

Of course, that Timur attacked and killed more muslims than non-muslims. (Please remember, genocide against the hindus still occurred.) Thus, it's no surprise that he is eventually called an enemy of Islam by his enemies. Timur also called his enemies, enemies of Islam.

When Raja Petra stated that more muslims are killed by muslims then by non-muslims, Timur has made that number possible.

Anonymous said...

John ,u r an indeed a retard..again u r coming back to hindu kush..sir,r u on medication or what..wanna talk about atrocities,wanna know how many King Asoka buthcherd?

Anonymous said...

How many millions have the europeans masscred?latin America,North America,Asia,Arica..what's the figure John?..or maybe u can ask that phoney Che Det Guevara Pete..kahkahkah..

Anonymous said...

Why the jews were soooo eager to return to Palestine?hah..isnt it bcos of the endless atrocties,pogrom commited aginst the jews by the europeans..hah John?That's the thing they learned from the europeans..how to torture..torture,plus their weird dharma..we have a hopeless situation in Palestine..

Tulang Besi said...

John Bastilles is his desperate attempt to lie about Islam says:

"Now, the next phase it, did he do it in the name of Islam?

Signs that Timur acted in the name of Islam."


Yet, Timur is still considered as enemies of Islam.

Here's the golden rule in Islam:

Just because someone acts in the name of Islam doesn't mean so.

Anyone can claim all they want but is they break the rules of islam they become rejected.

Just like Timur.

But you're desperate to prove your faulty argument against Islam that you refuse to highlight the part where Timur is labeled as Enemies of islam.

See what I mean how you pick and choose Islamic sources just to support your sick and twisted agenda.

You're a lir JB. A lousy liar.

Tulang Besi said...

John Bastilles,

Are you born a liar or did you take lessons?

Cause if you took lessons, you need to get a refund.

Tulang Besi said...

JB rants:

"I'm a Gwailo. I cannot speak arabic. You can help me translate then. All of your readers can learn more about Islam. Isn't it the purpose of debating?"

Despite knowing that he is deficient in understanding arabic, he goes on ahead to draw conclusions of Quranic text.

More than that, he dissaminate his conclusions for people to read.

What a funny way of doing things, don't you think

Anonymous said...

Disco JB missing..where he go aah?kahkahkah..

Asoka's massacres..in today's terms is considered a genocide..and there was this grandson of Ghenghis Khan,Halaku(I think) who build a tower of human skulls in Baghdad..well..itu semua ada kila mashok kaah?

Anonymous said...

Hey hey hey..Che Det Pete Guevera says he is a hippy..how come aah i dont see he wearin rudraksha mala..ini apa macam punya hippy ni?..kahkahkah

Anonymous said...

Harris Iskandar vs Che Det Pete Guevara?Who is more comical?kahkahkah

Anonymous said...

The latest updates in Mumbai from the Indian press and Pakastani Daily:


-The reason why the terrorist attacks on Mumbai was done on the specific date of November 26th is that the Anti-Terror Squad chief Hemant Karkare planned to reveal to the world press the next day 27th, that the Mossad was involved in funding and training militant fanatic Hindu terrorist group, who bombed Malegaon, India a few months ago, attacks that the Indian government wanted to blame on Muslims. Karkare saw the facts and was not fast to blame the Muslims; he ordered and investigation and found out that the Hindu terrorist group did the bombing. Upon interrogating the Hindus, they admitted to Karkare and his agents that the Israeli Mossad hired and trained them to do the bombings. The Hindus pointed out two Israeli Mossad agents in Mumbai, who were arrested, interrogated, and gave confessions. Karkare had the proof, witnesses, and confessions to blame Mossad, who planned, in arrogance, to kill Karkare one day before the expose, while at the same, time executing an Indian 9-11, "killing two birds with one stone." Karkare was shot in the back of the head while in bullet rpoof vest and helmet in his jeep. In other locations, 5 of Karkare's aides on the expose were also shot to death in different areas, quelling the Mossad expose from ever coming out.


-an Indian cop ran into the Chabad Lubavitch center during the attacks and was shocked to see a bunch of "white men" holding weapons, the mossad.


-the shootings started in the Chabad Lubavitch center, where many boxes of ammunition were found.


-the terrorists' blood showed evidence that they had talen LSD, Coccaine and alcohol. This is not the behavior of a Muslim. two of the terrorists had beers before they opened fire in a restaurant. These men were mercenaries who were hired by mossad. These mercenaries ar desperate men who work for the sake of their families, who need the money to survive in the poverty.


-the firefighters were told not to put out the fires, allowing the evidence to burn.


-the satillite phones found on the terrorists showed that their last call was to a Dan Samuel in New Jersey, a Mossad agent.


-many Israeli agents, more than usual, were seen and are on record as visiting all of the hotels attacked.


-the Indian woman that supposedly saved the Lubavitch child was sent to Israel and given an Israeli citizenship so that she could be monitored so that she wouldn't make a mistake and talk the truth about what really happened. The mossad possibly has given her money and a threat not to speak of the truth but only of what they instructed her to say. It is highly ely that she was a Mossad spy playing her role. She is a so called Indian Jew, which Jews have been focusing on for a few years, as the "Indian Jews" foryears were begging for acceptance as being known as Jews and Israeli citizenship, but were denied citizeship because of their lack of Israelite dna. This created a longing within the Indian Jewish community to be recognized as Jews and to be Israelite citizens, thus the Indian Jews who would be willing to do anything for the Jews just to be recognized as a Jew and to earn Israeli citizenship they have bee begging for, for years.


-Mossad affiliates in the government, Mossad agents, and the heads of the Indian government worked together to created the attacks.

Anonymous said...

From the Guardian of UK

“One police officer who encountered the gunmen as they entered the Jewish centre told the Guardian the attackers were "white"”

"I went into the building late last night," he said. "I got a shock because they were white. I was expecting them to look like us. They fired three shots. I fired 10 back.”


Now, Indians know fair skinned Indians and Pakistanis. They meet them every day, especially in Mumbai, where all the upper class Indians congregate. Indians know foreigners and they call Americans and Europeans “foreigners” or “white”. It is easy for an Indian to tell the difference between a fair skinned Indian or Pakistani and a “foreigner”

Other eyewitnesses at other locations also describe the terrorists as “foreign” or fair skinned.


From the BBC

Then, the "foreign looking, fair skinned" men, as Mr Mishra remembers them, simply carried on killing.

"They did not look Indian, they looked foreign. One of them, I thought, had blonde hair. The other had a punkish hairstyle. They were neatly dressed," says Mr Amir.

Anonymous said...

From DNA India

“Some residents claimed that the suspects were keeping track of the police’s movements through a television in Nariman House.

“When the news of top police officials getting killed flashed in the television, we heard loud noises from the flat. It seemed they were celebrating,” Anand Raorane, a resident in a building opposite Nariman House, said.”


Some in India claim that the terrorists were targeting some of India’s top anti-terrorist officers, and indeed a number of top officers including Hemant Karare, who were in the process of investigating an explosive case of terrorist activities by army officers and politicians, were killed. It is very strange that these exceptionally experienced men would so easily be killed. Some reports say they were ambushed. It was at the time that the news of these men’s demise was announced that sounds of celebration came from the Chabad office.


The Arrrest of Israeli Security Officer

While the standoff between the security forces and the terrorists in Nariman House was going on an Israeli ‘security officer’ at the Israeli consulate close by was arrested while running to the scene.

Anonymous said...

From Mid-Day News

“Mumbai: India's financial capital, Mumbai seems to be going through its longest night for the last two days. Wednesday, 9.40 pm, the affluent south Mumbai was struck by terrorists, at 12 different locations, including the VT station, a hub for all railway trains, to two of the most luxurious hotels, Taj Mahal and Oberoi Trident.


24 hours later, the attention has riveted to these hotels, and a tiny nondescript building, barely a few meters away from the Taj Mahal hotel. Housing a five-storied guest house for Israeli nationals, this building is turning out to be the 'den' for the militants.


"I saw 6 to 7 boats coming in on Wednesday evening and about ten people unloaded many bags from these boats and then gradually took them into the building, Nariman House', Vitthal Tandel, a fisherman in the area said. "The building has many rooms and these are used as guest houses by travelers, largely Israeli residents. None of us know what their names are", he said... “Virendra Ghunawat, a television journalist who has been tracking the Nariman House shootout since the time it took place Wednesday night, said even the cops have been cagey about details”.

John Bastille said...

Tulang Besi,

Oh, how gracious of you to reply promptly. Thank you.

I'm learning a lot here from you and am enjoying the process.

Your statement:

"Here's the golden rule in Islam:

Just because someone acts in the name of Islam doesn't mean so."

This is a wonderful statement. It shows the ability to separate religion from an individuals' deeds. Separation between the deeds of a muslim general/leader and the name of Islam. Separation between the decisions of national leadership and deeds in the name of Islam.

You are absolutely right. JUST because someone acts in the name of Islam doesn't mean so.

Allow me to repeat this wonderful golden rule several times:

"Just because someone acts in the name of Jesus doesn't mean so."

"Just because someone acts in the name of Buddha doesn't mean so."

"Just because someone acts in the name of Vishnu doesn't mean so."

Okay, enough-lah. Too long a list.

Tulang Besi, you are a good speaker.

You see, the problem I encounter is that when I questioned muslims, they said that I am anti-Islam.

The problem that the Free People encounter is that, when we challenged the actions of certain muslims, they are called anti-Islam.

Thus, we the Free People had the impression that muslims = Islam.

Thus, a muslim general that perpetrated genocide against hindus idolaters, in the case of Timur, it must be in the name of Islam. Timur did what his Prophet did. Because the Quran have so so many ayas that include words like "hell-fire" and "kill".

I know, I know, you are the expert in arabic, not I. Help your readers by translating-lah. You made an open invitation to debate, and now, no explanations and translations?

I like Malaysians. You guys are multi-lingual. Tulang Besi is fluent in Malay, Arabic, and English. Impressive.

Perhaps, you can teach us more.

In conclusion, Tulang Besi would concur with me that in order to avoid the misconception that the acts of muslims and the same as the acts that are encouraged and sanction by Islam, we must educate people of the distinction between the actions of muslims and the teachings of Islam, yes?

Anything when a muslim does good, it is because of Islam. Anything a muslim does bad is not because of Islam.

Beautiful.

Now, can you please guide us on what Islam considers as "innocent" people that Islam prohibits killing?

John Bastille said...

People believe in all sorts of things. Not all those beliefs are true. However, those who believe in false beliefs are not liars. They are merely misinformed or misguided.

To call one who does not believe in what you think is true, a liar, is sheer stupidity.

A liar is a person who knowingly falsifies the truth. For example, when Muslims say Muhammad’s wars were in self defense, they are lying. That is because they know that his wars were raids and offensive wars. When they say he married old women to protect them, they are lying. They know that his wives and concubines were all (with the exception of the first two) in their twenties, teens or even under aged and he took them to bed only because they were beautiful.

Muhammad actually encouraged his followers to lie to the unbelievers in order to deceive them.

But if a Christian believes that Jesus has resurrected, he is not a liar. That is his belief and even if that belief may not be true, he believes that it is.

There is a difference between lying, i.e.knowingly giving false testimony and believing in something that is not true.

Anonymous said...

JB: But if a Christian believes that Jesus has resurrected, he is not a liar. That is his belief and even if that belief may not be true, he believes that it is.

Precisely!

That is why we have the word 'faith' to account for all sort of beliefs which do not need proof or reason.

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/faith

John Bastille said...

Tulang Besi called me a liar many many times. Every statement I made is a lie to him. When I presented him with facts, taken from sahih sources (I know - English translation), he said that it is taken out of context.

He said that I hate Islam. I made hate sentences.

There is a difference between hate and debate.

For example, (story only - pure fiction)Group A follows the teachings of one Prophet A and Group B follows the teachings of Prophet B.

If member B ask Group A whether Prophet A have had sex with any girl below the age of consent or an age before puberty because that is called pedophilia. This is not hate, if Prophet A ACTUALLY did have sex with underage girls.

This is debate. Member B wants to know whether pedophilia had been committed. He wants to state that having sex with minors is pedophilia.

It is already pedophilia regardless of whether WHY Prophet A did it.

Now, the reason WHY is then subject to context. Member A will then accuse B of taking things out of context on the WHY.

Whether Prophet A did it out of sexual lust or for forming new bonding with a old ally is then subject to context.

Tulang Besi is very right about the language that is used for understanding the context. He is absolutely spot on that one must understand the correct meaning in each aya of within the original arabic. Thus, in this debate, we humbly beg him to demonstrate the context. An opportunity for him to showcase that he can debate with the likes of RPK.

It would really really be derogatory and filled with hate and lies, if Prophet A had not done such things. Then it is outright fitnah. Then Group B have perpetrated treachery and have ill-intention towards Group A.

There is a difference between hate and debate.

Anonymous said...

231. Berbudiperkerti mulia walaupun kepada si kafir

Berkata Abu Hurairah r.a. bahwasanya Nabi S.A.W. telah bersabda: Allah telah berfirman:

"Allah telah mewahyukan kepada Ibrahim:Wahai KesayanganKu! Molekkanlah kelakuanmu, meskipun terhadap orang-orang kafir, niscaya engkau akan terkira dari kumpulan orang-orang baik. Sesungguhnya perkataanKu mendahului siapa yang memolekkan kelakuannya, bahwasanya Aku akan melindunginya di sisi ArasyKu, dan bahwasanya Aku akan menempatkannya di dalam syurgaKu yang tertinggi, dan bahwasanya Aku akan menghampirkannya ke sisiKu.

(Riwayat Termidzi)
Hadis Qudsi
Analisa dan Komentar Tuan Syed Ahmad Semait

Anonymous said...

56. Kekejaman pemerintah di sebabkan maksiat rakyatnya.

Berkata Abu Darda' r.a. bahwasanya Nabi S.A.W. telah bersabda; Allah telah berfirman:

"Akulah Allah! Tiada Tuhan melainkan Aku! Aku Penguasa segala kerajaan dan Raja dari segala raja. Hati sekalian raja di dalam genggamanKu. Dan sesungguhnya sekalian hamba, jika mereka mentaatiKu, nescaya Aku akan menjadikan hati raja-raja mereka berbelas-kasihan kepada mereka. Dan sesungguhnya jika hamba-hamba itu menderhakaiKu, niscaya Aku menjadikan hati raja-raja mereka keras dan zalim, lalu menimpakan keatas mereka berbagai-bagai siksa. Maka jangan bersusah-susah untuk mendoakan ke atas raja-raja itu (lantaran kejahatan mereka), tetapi kerahkanlah diri kamu untuk memperbanyakkan zikir dan taqarrub (ibadat) kepadaKu, niscaya Aku akan lindungi kamu dari (kejahatan) raja-raja kamu."

(Riwayat Thabarani)
Hadis Qudsi
Analisa dan Komentar Tuan Syed Ahmad Semait

John Bastille said...

First Tukang Besi called me a liar.

Later he said that I hate Islam.

I said that Islam permits the killing of certain group of people that the Free People would consider innocent.

In Buddhism, killing of lives is prohibited. No exception. In Christianity, no taking of lives is allowed - no abortion, no euthanasia and no capital punishment.

In Islam, you are to kill some group of people.

You read very carefully, Tulang Besi DID NOT accuse me of taking the english-translated of the word "KILL". He is focused on the semantical context of allazina.

Therefore, as we argue on whether it is "Kill all non-believers" or "Kill those that disbelieve", or whether Islam allows the killing of adulterers, munafiqs, syirik, apostates, and probably pengkids and yoga practitioners, the unrefutable fact remains:

Islam allows and encourages the killing of certain group of people.

Tulang Besi accused me of lying and taking the definition of the "group of people" that can actually be killed.

He did not argue about killing. He is more concern about who falls within the category.

Tulang Besi uses a typical low-level form of arguing. Destroy the personage by calling him names. Using derogatory and by insulting, he paints a picture of incompetence. His constant repeat of the same derogatory lines is to persuade his readers to take the side of the one with higher moral ground. That's why he called me a drunk. Sadly, he doesn't debate.

John Bastille said...

The thread already has more than 168 comments. Fantastic record for Tulang Besi.


So, let's rap it shall we? Agree on the following:

1. Islam prohibits the killing of innocent lives.

2. However, the definition of innocent is very different between the understanding of Islam and the Free People.

3. This difference in the definition of innocent has a significant impact of the value system of both muslims and Free People.

4. Muslims adopt the "ummah mentality" which only considers that fellow muslims are brothers and part of humanity. The rest of the world can go to hell or get fathed. Pay jizyah or else.

5. Because of this "ummah mentality" and their teachings of syariah laws, double standards are practiced between believers and non-believers.

6. These double standards, together with the existence of Israel and muslims poor standing in international arena are often used as justification in Islamic terrorism.

7. Violent killings perpetrated by muslims, violent protests by moderate muslims (such as Danish cartoons) as well as constant whining about selective prosecution has earned the prejudice of the Free People.

8. The Free People are accused of Islamophobia.

9. Tulang Besi whined about Islamophobia.

10. The Free People still grief on the dead victims of Mumbai.

Anonymous said...

JB: Sadly, he doesn't debate.

and he had the cheek to invite others to debate, dialogue or forum in this post of his.

Welcome to Debate

Anonymous said...

JB: 3. This difference in the definition of innocent has a significant impact of the value system of both muslims and Free People.

To be fair, whenever you mentioned "Muslims" it would be better to qualify with "(not all).

I am sure you really meant not all Muslims, but it is tedious to do so. I also forget many times, but will make it a point to add such qualification whenever possible.

But i think it is critical to qualify with "(not all) as we know there are a lot of good Muslims out there like RPK, Haris, the average believers and many others.

Tulang Besi is a converted Muslim and as usual converts usually feel they must be seen as 'more Muslim' than others.
That the reason for his fanatism and acting as fundamentalist.

Anonymous said...

an Indian cop ran into the Chabad Lubavitch center during the attacks and was shocked to see a bunch of "white men" holding

yes..dat's whylah washington times reported "new evidence" have emerged regarding mumbai attaks..yeah..i now remember the story of a white van,and 5 cheering israelis when the twin towers got hit..they were arrested by the FBI,but were later released..umm...

Anonymous said...

Saffron Brigade has close ties with Isreal..ini betui..c lah..all these attacks,bombs,pogroms,mayhem r happenin in saffron states..

Anonymous said...

This is not hate, if Prophet A ACTUALLY did have sex with underage girls.

R u shaking..r u shaking ur brother John..brudder John..kahkahkah...Dey chootia..dont u f*kin hell know the semitic race group plus also the indian race group child marrige practices?..actually this afflicted khankir pola called John ..kahkahkah..is running out of steam..dunno wat 2 say..wat to do...apa pun tak tau..korek lobang sani sani macam drunken gorgoyle just to procalim himself the winner of the free pipul..yay!!..clap clap clap!!..kahkahkah...this topic is about to reach a stunning 200 replies..and poor John will suffer frm hysteria..towards the end..kahkahkah...jangan lupa utk panggil ambulens utk John the shaker ya..kahkahkah..

Anonymous said...

Remeber what happend to MT on 7/11 last year..one highly afflicted hostile pariah being called anti jihadist(kunoonya dri Korea) wrote a letter that nearly nailed Che Det Pete Guevara and MT..John is the same bugger kot..umm..???

Anonymous said...

John Bastille said...

But if a Christian believes that Jesus has resurrected, he is not a liar. That is his belief and even if that belief may not be true, he believes that it is.
-----------------------------

Resurrection of Christ; Innovation of Paul
Paul is the one who initiated the dogma of the resurrection of Christ as he admits himself, in his second letter to Timothy (2:8):

“Remember Jesus Christ, raised from the dead, a descendant of David – that is my gospel.”

It is mentioned by a Christian scholar William Neil in the Harper’s Bible Commentary:

“The earliest written evidence of the Resurrection is not in the gospels but in St. Paul’s first letter to the Corinthians 15:3-8.”

1 Corinthians 15:3-8. (King James Version)

15:3 For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; 15:4 And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: 15:5 And that he was seen of Cephas, then of the twelve: 15:6 After that, he was seen of above five hundred brethren at once; of whom the greater part remain unto this present, but some are fallen asleep. 15:7 After that, he was seen of James; then of all the apostles. 15:8 And last of all he was seen of me also, as of one born out of due time.

It is also mentioned in the “act of the Apostles”; that Paul is the one who taught the resurrection, and was also challenged by the people of his time:

“So he (Paul) argued in the synagogue with the Jews and the devout persons,… some said, ‘What does this babbler want to say?’ Others said, ‘He seems to be a proclaimer of strange gods’; because he preached unto them Jesus and the resurrection.”

The Testimony of Jesus (pbuh):

Matthew 12:39-40 (King James Version)

“12:39 But he answered and said unto them, An evil and adulterous generation seeketh after a sign; and there shall no sign be given to it, but the sign of the prophet Jonas: 12:40 For as Jonas was three days and three nights in the whale's belly; so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.”

THE Truth by Jesus (pbuh)

Luke 24:39-43 (King James Version)

24:39 Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have. 24:40 And when he had thus spoken, he shewed them his hands and his feet. 24:41 And while they yet believed not for joy, and wondered, he said unto them, Have ye here any meat? 24:42 And they gave him a piece of a broiled fish, and of an honeycomb. 24:43 And he took it, and did eat before them.

John Bastille said...

Dear Anon dated December 15, 2008 10:46 AM,

You argued that I should be fair that when I mentioned "Muslims" it would be better to qualify with "not all". You are certainly right. However, this thread is about Tulang Besi's enquiry on why there are double standards between the treatment between muslims and the Free People.

My statement is that, if you promote double standards, eventually double standards will be applied.

Muslims, in general but not all, adopts the "ummah mentality" as espoused by the Prophet (also in his last sermon)as well as the Medina Charter. Muslims are brothers to each other. ALL muslims must follow Islam. Thus, in my words - muslims as a collective, not individuals.

Together with the different understanding of "innocent", you can observe the vast difference or two different standard reactions amongst the muslims and the Free People.

For example, recently there is one news that broke around the world. The Free People were pissed off. A 13-year-old Somali girl, Aisha Duhulow was stoned to death in a stadium full of spectators in the southern port city of Kismayo on 27 October after authorities found her guilty of adultery.

Reports indicate that she had been raped by three men while walking to visit her grandmother in the capital Mogadishu. After the attack, Aisha asked for protection from prosecutors, who in turn accused her of adultery and sentenced her to death.

Source" http://www.un.org/apps/news/story.asp?NewsID=28859&Cr=Somali&Cr1="

You see, under true Islamic law as per the Quran and Hadiths, a female rape victim needs to have FOUR pious male muslims as witnesses. Female muslims are counted as half-person. Non-believers cannot be counted.

Don't as why. Allah knows best. Muslims questioning the reasoning will shake their faith. Free People questioning is tantamount to hating Islam. If can, ask Ayesha (one of the wives of the Prophet).


Anon, you see. We would consider Aisha Duhulow as a victim of rape. Muslims would consider her as an adultress. A 13 year old adultress that deserves to be stoned to death. Not just death but in a stadium opened to the muslim public.

Killing is permitted, if not encouraged against non-innocents.

There will always be double standards between the Free People and muslims ("not all"). Both sides will always implement double standards.

That's my reply to Tulang Besi.

Most malay muslims will be angry with me because they are mostly peaceful sunnis. Malaysian's infidels are lucky to have peaceful sunni muslims, instead of militant wahabbis, or even some group of shia muslims.

But, we are talking global. We are looking at muslims at a global perspective.

Anonymous said...

However, this thread is about Tulang Besi's enquiry on why there are double standards between the treatment between muslims and the Free People.

Regardless of how Tulang Besi present the word "Muslim", i think it our responsibility to be good human to qualify with "not all" or "majority" where appropriately.

It is only natural that whenever a good Muslim read any statement with reference to the word "Muslim", he will normally not take it as 'general' but rather think it is refering to him personally.

If we use "not all", at least there is room for him to place himself in the exception group. It meant you are refering to some others and not him personally.

Anyway it is only my POV, up to you, to each his own.

Anonymous said...

kahkahkah ...jangan lupa utk panggil ambulens utk John the shaker ya..kahkahkah..

with those in bold, sound like a post from a monkey, gorilla or gagak..???

with too many of those frivolous personal comments, it make you post a like a psycho ...

Anonymous said...

death of the innocence


………Fearful massacre of Christians who did not believe in Trinity followed. It became a penal offense to possess a Bible not authorized by the Church and according to some estimates as many as 270 different versions of the Bible were burnt. Princess Constantina was not happy at the turn of events. The Emperor ultimately was persuaded to accept the faith of the men he killed…...

From Barnabas.net….Life of Barnabas


please feel free to go to youtube september 11

Anonymous said...

fyi, the kahkahkah comments are the coward tulang besi's. not hard at all to see the similar grammar and syntax

Anonymous said...

John Bastille said...
If member B ask Group A whether Prophet A have had sex with any girl below the age of consent or an age before puberty because that is called pedophilia. This is not hate, if Prophet A ACTUALLY did have sex with underage girls.
-----------------------

Please visit: www.answering-christianity.com

AUDIO: Women's vaginas taste like "wine" (Song of Songs 7:1-4, 8-9)

------------------------
Marrying your children!

The Bible in Leviticus 20:21 allows for parents to marry their children!

John Bastille said...

Dear Anon dated December 15, 2008 1:37 PM,

Thank you very much for your support!!!

You gave another excellent example on the evil of forming a theocratic state. Any religious or theocratic government will practice double standards - separating people between us and them.

You are right. No Islamic laws in Malaysia. Thanks.

John Bastille said...

Dear Anon dated December 15, 2008 2:01 PM,

Thank you for informing us that women's vaginas taste like "wine" Song of Songs 7:1-4, 8-9). What do you think? Agree or not. How does it taste like to you?

Whatever that is mentioned in the bible (as you quoted) or any other source as you so desire, IF Prophet A has had sex with a child, IT IS pedophilia.

Whether Prophet C, or D, or Hindu families or whoever also practice, Prophet A STILL has committed pedophilia.


Why Prophet A did it is IRRELEVANT. Whether to form an new alliance with an existing old friend and already ally, or whether it is lust, or dream, IT IS STILL pedophilia.

If pedophilia is NORMAL, then you shouldn't be offended. It's normal what. If you think it is despicable, then only you claim that member B is anti-Group A. Because member B is trying to bring up a despicable action from Prophet A. Gotcha.

So, you think it is despicable or normal?

John Bastille said...

Dear Anon dated December 15, 2008 10:46 AM

You mentioned that "Tulang Besi is a converted Muslim and as usual converts usually feel they must be seen as 'more Muslim' than others.
That the reason for his fanatism and acting as fundamentalist."

Well, I'm not too sure of his background and I'm not making it personal. I have good regards for him and hope that his newborn child will be blessed. I thank him for his earnest efforts to defend his stand.

You made an interesting point about converts. Actually, one reason for such increase in Islamist terrorisms could be due to increasing wealth (post-colonialism) and increasing literacy rate amongst the muslims.

Literacy rate is still the lowest amongst muslims, but has increased. But imagine if the rate increases.

Imagine if more and more muslims begin to read the Quran. The Hadiths. Imagine if they come to the aya AN-NISA 004.089 on "... seize them and slay them wherever ye find them; ..."

They could end up misunderstanding Islam, like me. Just focused on the "slay them" and don't really understand what allazina means.

Imagine.

Anonymous said...

Various articles exposing this likely Mossad false flag

Some photos attached as well

Jerusalem Post admits Mumbai Mossad presence and tries to spin it
Posted on December 3, 2008 by Moin Ansari

News photos show one man waving a white flag out of the window of the Chabad House. He later escaped. Who was he. Why has he not been identified? No one knows. There have been news stories about the Mossad connection in Mumbai ignored by the US press. This news story in the Jerusalme Post was points to an essential item in the conspiracy theories that abound the Indian press and blogs. One Isreali writer says that connection will be covered up quickly.

Jerusalem Post. Dec 3, 2008 0:44 | Updated Dec 3, 2008 1:24. Mumbai doctor finds no signs of torture on Chabad House bodies

Millions saw a white shirt, perhaps a tallis, waved in a window, hours before the Indian commandos ended their 12-hour assault in this small building, and apparently found all hostages killed. Any professional has to wonder how many of the hostages died at the hands of the brutal terrorists, and if any were mistakenly killed by some of the shooting from outside (we all saw some Indian policemen firing randomly into the building), as happened at Entebee. This will all be covered up. I do hope the Indian public demands a more rapid and more professional response in future acts of terror. Sam - (12/03/2008 22:54)

The security officer at the Israeli consulate in Mumbai was arrested by Indian police as he raced toward the Chabad House last Wednesday after Rabbi Gavriel Holtzberg telephoned to say it was under attack.

The Foreign Ministry in Jerusalem on Sunday confirmed that the officer had been intercepted en route to what he had hoped would be a rescue mission, but stressed that Israel had no complaints with Indian security personnel over the incident.

“An armed foreigner was running toward them at a terrorist scene,” said a ministry official. “Of course they arrested him. What would you expect them to do?”

Indeed, The Jerusalem Post has been told that an individual jumped out of a window at the Chabad House early in the unfolding terror attack and ran toward the security guard, and he, too, was arrested by Indian police.

The Israeli consulate is located just a few streets away from the Chabad House.

The last known word from Chabad emissary Holtzberg, who was found dead in the building 60 hours later along with his wife Rivka and other victims, came in the phone call to the consulate in which he reported the attack.

The call was cut off in mid-conversation.

The security officer immediately raced to the Chabad House to try to help, but was stopped close to the building.

He was not carrying identification papers, the Post was told - perhaps, it is speculated, in case he himself fell into the hands of the terrorists. However, one Indian security official recognized him, the Post was told.

The security officer was released from jail a few hours after he was detained. Nov 30, 2008 23:23 | Updated Dec 1, 2008 0:02 Israeli consulate’s Mumbai security chief arrested en route to Chabad House rescue By JERUSALEM POST STAFF

The embarressed Indian establishment and the already chagrined Israeli government is up in arms (Foreign Ministry furious at Zaka’s Mumbai ‘meddling’ Says public criticism of Indian commandos could have serious diplomatic repercussions). It had wanted to keep the story of the indexterity, undeftness, ineptitude of the Indian commandos under wraps. This was not to be. Now the truth is out. Indian commandos killed the Jews.

Anonymous said...

John Bastille

You are clutching at straws, and in the process come out with as much 'proof' as possible to taint Islam. While doing that you dig your own grave, so to speak. The latest is trying to paint 'prophet A' as black as possible. Not a very good debater.

So the world must conform to the standards you set now? Who are you? Representative of the so-called Free People I guess. I wonder who really is a Free People. You remind me of the hollywood artists who went around Africa and Asia trying to change the cultures practised for thousand of years. What authority do you have to decide how people should lead their lives? No wonder there's people here who laugh at you.

How old was your grandmother when she got married? Or your great-great grandmother? Or your great-great-great grandmother? We can always go further back if need be. Until we have a case, no? So now, can we attack them using a standard which we have set just recently in modern times? That's kinda...stupid, no?

Anonymous said...

Mumbai Terror Attacks: The Mossad Angle
They killed Hemant Karkare, chief of the police anti-terrorist squad in Mumbai, to send a message that you cannot investigate the Mossad-RSS angle
by Amaresh Misra
MUMBAI, INDIA 4:00AM -- Mumbai is under attack. People and forces who killed Mahatama Gandhi, who demolished the Babari Mosque have triumphed. More than 16 groups of terrorists have taken over Taj, Oberai and several hotels. Hundreds of people are dead. For the first time no one is blaming Muslim organizations. The Mumbai ATS chief Hemant Karkare and other officers of the ATS have been killed. These were the same people who were investigating the Malegaon Blasts - in which Praggya Singh, an army officer and several other noted personalities of the BJP-RSS-Bajrang Dal-VHP were arrested. Karkare was the man to arrest them. Karkare was receiving threats from several quarters. LK Advani, the BJP chief and several other prominent leaders of the so-called Hindu terrorism squad were gunning for his head. And the first casualty in the terrorist attack was Karkare! He is dead - gone - the firing by terrorists began from Nariman House - which is the only building in Mumbai inhabited by Jews. Some Hindu Gujaratis of the Nariman area spoke live on several TV channels - they openly said that the firing by terrorists began from Nariman house. And that for two years suspicious activities were going on in this house. But no one took notice.

Our worst fears have come true. It is clear that Mossad is involved in the whole affair. An entire city has been attacked by Mossad and probably units of mercenaries. It is not possible for one single organization to plan and execute such a sophisticated operation. It is clear that this operation was backed by communal forces from within the Indian State. The Home Minister Shivraj Patil should resign. The RSS-BJP-VHP-Bajrang Dal should be banned. Advani and others ought to be arrested. Today is a day of shame for all Indians and all Hindus. Muslims and secular Hindus have been proven right. RSS type forces and Israel are all involved in not only destabilizing but finishing India. India should immediately snap all relations with Israel. We owe this much to Karkare and the brave ATS men who had shown the courage to arrest Praggya Singh, Raj Kumar Purohit, the army officer and several others.

A photograph published in Urdu Times, Mumbai, clearly shows that Mossad and ex-Mossad men came to India and met Sadhus and other pro-Hindutva elements recently. A conspiracy was clearly hatched.

This is a moment of reckoning especially for Hindus of India. The killers of Gandhi have struck again. If we are true Sanatanis and true Hindus and true nationalists and true patriots we have to see this act as a clear attack by anti-national deshdrohi forces. Praggya Singh, Advani and the entire brand is anti-national. They ought to be shot. Any Hindu siding with them is hereafter warned of serious consequences.

This is a question of nationalism. If no one else, the Indian army will not take this lying down. Communal, anti-national forces have attacked the very foundation of the Indian constitution and the nation. We will fight a civil war if need be against the pro-Hindutva, communal forces and their Israeli backers.

---
Dr. Amaresh Misra is an historian/journalist. His most recent book "War of Civilizations: India AD 1857" was released in March 2008 by the Vice President of India Shri Mohd. Hamid Ansari

Anonymous said...

THE HINDU

U.S. national Ken Haywood leaves India



Mumbai Bureau







MUMBAI: American national Kenneth Haywood, 44, has left the country on Monday morning according to the Anti Terrorism Squad (ATS). However, the ATS does not know if his wife and daughter are accompanying him.

Haywood is a suspect in connection with the Ahmedabad blasts after a threatening e-mail was sent on the day of the blasts from his Internet Protocol address. About 412 MB of data was downloaded from Haywood’s computer while he was working on it between 1 p.m. and 8 p.m.

ATS chief Hemant Karkare confirmed that Haywood had left for the U.S. Mr. Karkare told reporters late on Monday that he left from New Delhi. The Delhi police and immigration officials would be questioned to find out how he had left. A look out notice was issued in his name on July 30. However, his passport was not impounded as the police needed proof of involvement in a case to do so, Mr. Karkare said.

The results of the polygraph tests which Haywood was subjected to came on Monday and his name was cleared, said Mr. Karkare. It shows that he was not the person who sent the email on the day of the blasts. The ATS chief said Haywood was not a suspect anymore. However, he was called for questioning by the ATS on Sunday and Monday for some allegation he had made about a policeman asking for a bribe from him to clear his name.

Haywood has been on the list of suspects of the Anti-Terrorism Squad office since the news of the e-mail broke out. Earlier in the investigation, Parambir Singh, Additional Commissioner, Anti-Terrorism Squad (ATS), Mumbai, told reporters that Haywood could not leave the country without permission, as he was required to be available for investigation.

Besides the polygraph and brain-mapping tests Haywood underwent recently, technical experts at the Kalina forensic laboratory are in the process of analysing the hard disks of three of his computers.

There was speculation that his computers were hacked, but preliminary forensic analysis showed less likelihood of hacking.

Haywood was a resident of Gunina Apartments in Navi Mumbai. He lived there with his wife and daughter.

He worked as a corporate training manager with Campbell White, a multi-national firm, which was also under the police scanner. He had been in India for the past one year.

Anonymous said...

[Received via email from Amaresh Misra on November 29, 2008]

Doubts and People

Some people have raised doubts about the `theory' I
am circulating supposedly on the net. They have
every right to question and doubt anyone and
anything. After all doubt is the mother of all
kinds of right thinking.

I have recevied dead threats, hate mails--but more,
I have received praises for courage and conviction.

I am not surprised and I do not mind people
ridiculing me or anyone else--but I do mind when
that ridicule actually goes a long way in hiding
the hypocrisy and criminal face/intent of several
prominent politicians and corporate figures.

Yes--corporate figures as well; what people do not
understand is that in complex situations such as
the Mumbai terror attack, new lines of thought will
emerge as more facts emerge. But that should not
stop anyone from offering critiques of the official
or media version.

My initial theory that basically the Sangh Parivar
elements instigated the terror attacks is stronger
now. In fact more than the Sangh Parivar, it was
Modi--yes he is the new, modern face of Indian
fascism. He is the one to have a cozy relationship
with Ratan Tata, one of the most ruthless and
anti-Indian business man, whose family earned its
money while smuggling opium to China during the
19th century, and sided with the British in 1857,
when 10 million Indians, Hindus and Muslims, lost
their lives fighting the British.

In fact, Modi has left the RSS behind in many
ways--he is Mossad's number one man. Recently, a
top RSS functionary told me that "Amaresh we have
lost control over out cadres. We never wanted to
let things get out of hand in Orissa and Karnataka.
In Orissa, we had even planned a joint declaration
with Christian leaders. But there was a revolt from
below. The VHP and Bajrang Dal refused to fall in
line. Then they got the subtle support of that man
Modi. We were helpless".

Basically, the RSS lost control over the
Frankestein they created.

In Modi's form this Frankestein struck a deal with
Mossad--now remember Mossad has links in the
faction torn ISI--remember also that several
`Jihadi' groups, in Pakistan, Afghanistan and the
Middle-East are still remote comtrolled by either
the Mossad or the CIA. In a recent case, a Muslim
`Jihadi' organization in Yemen was found to be a
Mossad set-up.

That is why it is possible the several young men
who attacked Mumbai used Pakistan as a base. But
their nationality is varied. Some might be Muslims
from the UK as well; at least there is one with a
Mauritius passport.

Now it is coming to the fore that someone from
Saudi Arabia (called Maulana Bedi for now)
probably collected and sent these `Jihadis'. That
mastermind must have been paid by an Indian/Modi
interest. These masterminds have no ideology. They
are creations of America who now work for money,
and even against American interests. This is again
a complex but stark reality.

Anonymous said...

Also Nanda, the owner of Oberoi, is a close friend
of Modi. He has millions invested in Gujarat. How
come terrorists were holed up in Taj and Oberoi for
days before the operation? How come arms and
ammunition were stored for days in the two 5 star
Hotels? Can the common man do this? Is all this
possible without some sort of a connivance (known
or unknown) of Hotel authorities? And is it too
incredible to suppose that Hotel owners will not,
knowingly or unknowingly, encourage the destruction
of their own property? Taj maybe great for us--but
what is its emotional or financial value for Tata?
Modi's acceptance of the Nano plant in Gujarat on
extremely favorable terms might be more important
for Tata.

I leave this aspect to you all.

Coming to the Nariman House, I am really surprised
at the perception that why would a Mossad backed
operation kill Jews? Why not? In any case Mossad
backs aggressive Zionism, which is very much a
modern religo-fascist ideology like Hindutva.
Zionism is not part of Judaism, just as Hindutva is
not part of Sanatan Dharma, the real religion of
Hindus. In the Praggya Singh affair, Sanatan
Dharmis opposed Hindutva especially when they were
maligning Hemant Karkare.

So Mossad and Zionists are known to have killed
ordinary Jews--after all Hindutva ideology killed
Mahatama Gandhi--can anyone deny that? Also Modi
without a qualm masterminded the killing of several
of his own people in the Godhara train incident, in
order the create the atmosphere for large scale
anti-Muslim and anti-India riots.

Remember evil thrives in the world because the
`good' lacks imagination. Evil triumphs because it
is capable of out-thinking `good'.

Those who call themselves supporters of Modi and
Advani, they are also supporters of the killers of
Gandhi. Hindutva ideology and politics since its
inception has been opposed to the idea of a secular
Indian nation-state since 1947. They staged an
uprising against Indian state in 1947; proof exists
that Golwalkar the RSS chief was hand in glove with
the British army in carrying out anti-Muslim
attacks. This was brought to the notice of
Rajeshwar Dayal, the then Home Secretary of the
United Provinves (present day UP) who took the case
to Govind Ballabh Pant, the the then UP Chief
Minister.

Muslims who stayed back in India after 1947 did so
because of choice. There was an acute polarization
within Muslims between Jinnah and the Muslim League
on one side and the Muslim Ulema and its supporters
who sided with the Congress.

Karkare's death

Now the Karkare incident--two versions are already
coming out. It is unclear how he was killed--and
foul play is suspected. Karkare's mother came onto
TV and wanted to know how her son was killed.
Salaskar's cousin raised the same issue.

So the relatives of the brave martyrs are asking
for justice. They feel that there is more than
meets the eye--and that somehow Karkare's death,
and that of Kaamte and Salaskar, was related to the
Malegaon blast investigation conducted by Karkare.

Why has Karkare's son refused the 1 crore announced
by Modi? The latter came to Oberoi when the firing
was still on; he made a very petty statement
disliked by everyone. Modi was probably feeling
that he had pulled off an ace by triggering this
crisis just before elections in Madhya Pradesh,
Rajasthan and Delhi, areas in which the BJP was
clearly losing before the terror attacks.

Think--the boat to Mumbai could not have come
without the co-operation of the Gujarat Government!

The fact is that Hindutva forces who were
castigating Karkare and the entire Mumbai ATS team
as villains and `enemies of Hindus' are now
suddenly hailing them as heroes? What double
standards man--people have send me mails, saying
that they support Advani and Modi. All these people
are supporting the killing of Karkare, just as they
supported the killing of Gandhi.

Anonymous said...

Karkare and Kaamte were true Hindus and the most
secular elements within the strife-torn, and highly
communal Mumbai Police. They were men of
integrity--how come Karkare died while wearing a
bullet proof vest? Or like Sharma in the Batala
House encounter, was he not wearing that vest? Was
he shot in the heart or the neck? Probably we will
never know.

But we should know--we have a right to know.
Karkare was hated by Hindutva elements. And they
masterminded his killing--they are responsible.
Karkare is a great hero, a martyr in the cause of
secularism.

Modi, Advani and all the anti-Sanatani Hindus
posing as Hindus on the net have a distorted mind.
In their blind or soft anti-Muslim hatred, they are
unable to see how, to suppress the Malegaon Blast
investigation, in which Karkare was about to take
the name of Praveen Togadia and even Chota Rajan,
Karkare was eliminated.

Communal forces backed by foreign agencies are hell
bent on destroying India--America wants to
dismember Pakistan, gherao China etc. and for that
it needs India firmly in the US-Israel orbit. That
is why Americans, British and Israelis were
targeted. Nariman House was a hub where according
to eyewitness reports, several suspicious Israelis
were seen coming and out; it is possible that these
people were involved in the terror attacks and that
they killed their own people.

The Mumbai terror attacks were a gigantic exercise,
a fight between those forces within the Indian
establishment who want to take India towards the
dangerous and suicidal US-Israel nexus and those
who want India to stay Independent and have good
relations with Pakistan, China and Iran.

Everyone in this battle would not everything or all
the countours. But the pattern is becoming clear
slowly and steadily.

Indian nationalism has to be redefined--India's
slow drift towards a pro-US and a pro-Israel policy
and towards Hindutva gives the ground for people
like Maulana Bedi and Mossad to attack India. India
has to go back to the anti-Imperialist,
Hindu-Muslim unity, anti-Hindutva 1857 nationalism.

Why were the 1857 150th anniversary celebrations
downplayed in India? Why was my book on 1857
downplayed? Because the pro-US and pro-Israel lobby
did not want 1857, the nodal point of true Indian
nationalism to resurrect.

Think...just think...we owe this to Karkare and all
brave NSG men and army men...

Thanks to Bush, global terrorism has become an
industry, a money making machine. It has other
phenomenon like outsourcing war and terror to
mercenaries attached to it. Mossad excels in
forming armies of private mercenaries and
destablizing states the world over. Just go to the
net.

Anonymous said...

CIA, MOSSAD HAND BEHIND SANGH PARIVAR'S EXTREMISTS!



Central Intelligence Agencies vigilant investigating in the aftermath of Malegaon blast; Enquiry being held into the February 2007 visit of prominent Israeli religious delegation and meetings with Hindutvadi Sadhu, Sanths and political leaders; Mossad infiltration a cause of deep concern for Intelligence officials



New Delhi, November 25: (Agencies) – According to an exposé in a national daily published from Madhya Pradesh and several other cities, in the aftermath of the arrests of Sadhu, Sadhvi, and other extremist Hindutvadis as involved in the Malegaon bomb blast, Intelligence agencies are now concentrating on foreign connections of the radical Hindutvadis.



In an special report published by the national daily, it has exposed this sensational news that in central intelligence agencies are to be believed, extremist Hindutvadis have got support and motivation from Israeli secret agency, Mossad's operations against the Arab and Muslim countries in the past.



The newspaper writes that relations between Mossad and CIA are world known. Report mentions that intelligence agencies are worried about the infiltration of Mossad and CIA in the country. According to undisclosed sources, Indian intelligence agencies are now examining the full details of the visit of Israel's religious leaders to India and their meetings withSadhu, Sanths. Intelligence agencies are investigating all those Hindu and Muslim leaders that the Israeli religious delegation had met.



According to the newspaper, it was during the rule of BJP's Atul Behari Vajpayee; a beginning was made for the visits of Hindutvadis, and especially Sadhus anddharam gurus of the Sangh Parivar to Israel. These visits have been on the increase. It was during Vajpayee's time, that the visits to Israel and consequently the relations and contacts of Sangh Parivar Dharam gurus and Hindutva leaders with Israelincreased manifold.



According to the newspaper, for last ten years, the central intelligence agencies have been closely studying and analyzing the growing strength of Hindutvadi and Sangh Parivar organisations and the increasing violence through these organisations against Muslims, Christians, and minorities in Gujarat,Orissa, Karnataka and other states. Intelligence agencies have disclosed that the visits of Jews and Israeli rabbis was not very frequent in the past, but it has increased to worrisome proportions, during last few years. Of all, the most studied is the February 2007 visit to Delhi of the delegation of Israeli Jewish religious leaders. The delegation was headed byIsrael's Chief Rabbi, Yonah Metzger.



In this delegation, Jewish religious leaders from Israelas well as others rabbis from Belgium and Spain too were included. In India, the Israel Jewish religious delegation met important Hindutva leaders, which included especially the RSS Chief K. S. Sudharshan, President of VHP, Ashok Singhal, VHP leader Vishnu Hari Dalmia.

After the meeting of the Sadhu Sanths and Jewish leaders, both delegations had issued a common manifesto.



In this meeting, Jewish Rabbis expressed grave concern over the details of the terrorist attacks allegedly carried out by Muslims, as narrated by Hindu dharam gurus. Secret Service sources disclosed that at the invitation of Israeli Jewish religious leaders, a delegation of Hindutva leaders had visited Israel this year. In this, some leaders of Sangh Parivar too were included.



The national daily, published from Madhya Pradesh and other places, in its report has exposed that the officials of the national intelligence agencies have categorically stated that American secret service agency, CIA together with Israel's secret organisation Mossad, has carried out several secret operation all over Asia.



And now that the bomb blast of Malegaon and Modasa had involved the names of the fake Shankaracharya Amaranand alias Dayanand Pande, Sadhvi Pragya Thakur, enquiries and investigation of relations between Jewish and Hindutva religious leaders from Israel and India are being severely felt and is being analyzed. This was disclosed by the newspaper report.



(Translation from Urdu)





Rashtriya Sahara, Urdu Daily, Mumbai



Wednesday, November 26, 2008



Front Page News



Why investigation of Israeli connection of Hindutvadis?



New Delhi, November 25: The way ATS has arrested Hindutva extremists belonging to Sangh Parivar, in connection with Malegaon bomb blast, facts have emerged of international networking and support to Hindutva radicals. This has alarmed national intelligence community. India's internal and external intelligence agencies and RAW have got busy trying to figure out if there is some big international conspiracy is being hatched behind the activities of hardline extremists of Sangh Parivar. According to secret sources, back in February 2007, an Israeli delegation headed by Israel's Chief Rabbi, Yonah Metzger, and accompanied by several high ranking Jewish religious leaders, had visited India. This Jewish Religious delegation held meetings with many Sadhus, Sanths and Dharam gurus. The delegation also met some Muslim leaders. Now intelligence agencies have started investigations of the meetings of the Israeli delegation and local Sadhus, Sanths and dharam gurus. It is mentioned that the delegation of Israeli Jewish religious leaders has met leaders and dharam gurus from RSS, Sangh Parivar, VHP and BJP. Lal Krishna Advani had arranged a dinner for the visiting Israeli Jewish religious leaders' delegation and others included in the delegation, at his own residence. According to high official, though the meeting of Sangh Parivar's leaders to Israeli delegation is not of undue importance, but the way America's secret service, CIA and Israel's secret agency, Mossad, are infiltrating in Central Asian and South Asian countries, it is giving strength to the suspicions that in such delegations, members of foreign intelligence get included and through interaction and infiltration, secret operations are carried out. Those organisations that organise and support such visits and meetings, may or may not be aware of the secret mission of foreign agencies, the truth can come out only on investigations. For this reason, the national agencies are now concentrating on investigation of Sangh Parivar and its connections with Israeli lobby and Mossad.

John Bastille said...

Dear Anon dated December 15, 2008 3:14 PM,

My my, you seem to be pretty taken up by the hypothetical example of a Prophet A. Why like that? Example only what. Does it reflect a real prophet that you know?

But then, if Prophet A is upheld to be the ROLE MODEL for mankind, then, I encourage all of the members of Group A to continue pedophilia. Heck, I may even welcome pedophilia myself, eh? I may develop a fantasy to have sex with a Primary Standard 3 schoolgirl. 9 years old. So tender. But then, I'm not 53 years old yet. You got daughter or not? Nine already? Can book?

Okay, I could not agree with your statement more. You said:

"So the world must conform to the standards you set now? Who are you?"

That's right. Who am I? Who are you? Very good question.

Who speaks for Islam? Where is your present Caliph? Why is there only 4 Caliphs? Don't count the Ottommans one lah.

Thank you for supporting me. No Islamic rule in Malaysia.

Anonymous said...

The Nariman House Story - Mumbai
NARIMAN HOUSE STORY





BEFORE THE ATTACKS:



The drama started weeks before the terrorist attacks - at a Jewish residential complex

In Mumbai run by the Chabad-Lubavitch ultra-orthodox movement.



From CBC News (Canadian Broadcasting Corporation)



http://www.cbc.ca/world/story/2008/11/28/mumbai-attacks.html

“In a telephone interview with CBC News from outside the centre, freelance journalist Arun Asthhana said there are reports that some of the militants had stayed at a guest house there for up to 15 days before the attacks.

"They had a huge mass of ammunition, arms and food there," Asthhana said.

That some, or all of the attackers stayed there before the attacks seem no longer in question. Later news reports state that the terrorists came to Nariman House posing as Malaysian students and were given lodging. Why Ultra-orthodox Jews would give lodging to these unknown Malaysian Muslim students is baffling; they could have been ‘terrorists’. After all they did not know them.



However, it is well known that those housing quarters are rented only to religious Jews passing through Mumbai, so much so that the Indian Police wanted to know why they were rented to non-Jews in this instance.



From Times of India



http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/Mumbai_locals_helped_us_terrorist_tells_cops/articleshow/3774106.cms



“Police are trying to find out how Nariman House rooms were given to non-Jews. Police has taken all the records books of for verification”





Guardian of UK
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2008/nov/27/mumbai-terror-attacks-terrorism2



“Locals said the owners of Nariman House was a Jewish Israeli family who rented out flats to other religious Jews.”

Anonymous said...

Food ordered in:





From Mid-Day News (MID-DAY is a 28 year old well respected media establishment in Mumbai):



http://www.mid-day.com/news/2008/nov/281108-Nariman-House-terror-hub.htm



“The role that Nariman House is coming to play in this entire attack drama is puzzling. Last night, residents ordered close to 100 kilograms of meat and other food, enough to feed an army or a bunch of people for twenty days. Shortly thereafter, the ten odd militants moved in, obviously, indicating that the food and meat was ordered, keeping their visit in mind, another cop added.”



DNA INDIA is another well-established, well-known Indian Media house.



They reported:



http://www.dnaindia.com/report.asp?newsid=1209852

“The terrorists came to Colaba on Wednesday evening,” Mukund Shelke, who runs a grocery shop at Colaba Market, said. “Before barging into Nariman House, they had purchased adequate food to last them at least three days,” he said.

“They had purchased around two crates of chicken and liquor worth Rs25,000 from two shops in Colaba,” another resident Joseph D’Mello said.



Here the quote says that “they” had purchased the food, and from the text, which would be a translation of the eyewitness account, it would suggest that the terrorists did the shopping. But the policeman’s report and quote is more credible because any group of terrorists going to take over a place during a city-wide attack would not stop to do shopping first, selecting meat, and liquor and other items, unless of course they were right at home.





The Attacks Start:



According to a changing and shifting narrative all attackers came in by boats.

Why they did not stay in Mumbai after spending days scouting the place is unknown. That would have made much more sense. Maybe the commanders came in just in time for the operation.



It is now being reported that they landed and split into groups with two men going to the office of the ultra-orthodox Jewish group Chabad-Lubavitch which runs Nariman house. There they supposedly held an unknown number of persons hostage, while killing some.



However, eye-witnesses, and the earliest reports, state that all the men from the boat went straight to the Nariman House complex before dispersing to carry out attacks.



From Mid-Day News



http://www.mid-day.com/news/2008/nov/281108-Nariman-House-terror-hub.htm

Anonymous said...

“Mumbai: India's financial capital, Mumbai seems to be going through its longest night for the last two days. Wednesday, 9.40 pm, the affluent south Mumbai was struck by terrorists, at 12 different locations, including the VT station, a hub for all railway trains, to two of the most luxurious hotels, Taj Mahal and Oberoi Trident.

24 hours later, the attention has riveted to these hotels, and a tiny nondescript building, barely a few meters away from the Taj Mahal hotel. Housing a five-storied guest house for Israeli nationals, this building is turning out to be the 'den' for the militants.



"I saw 6 to 7 boats coming in on Wednesday evening and about ten people unloaded many bags from these boats and then gradually took them into the building, Nariman House', Vitthal Tandel, a fisherman in the area said. "The building has many rooms and these are used as guest houses by travelers, largely Israeli residents. None of us know what their names are", he said.



“Virendra Ghunawat, a television journalist who has been tracking the Nariman House shootout since the time it took place Wednesday night, said even the cops have been cagey about details”.







From the Guardian of UK



http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2008/nov/27/mumbai-terror-attacks-terrorism2

“They came by sea, on a small skiff, and made their way in the dark through the narrow streets of old Colaba to the six-storey apartment building called Nariman House. There they stayed – an unknown number of mystery gunmen who besieged the building from the inside.”

From The New York Times

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/11/29/world/asia/29tock.html?bl=&ei=5087&en=c7382f26209af6ce&ex=1228194000&pagewanted=all

“When the terrorists landed in front of Mr. Dhanur’s boat, they were just three blocks straight down a narrow lane from Nariman House, a five-storey building housing a Jewish center run by a young Rabbi, Gavriel Holtzberg, and his wife, Rivka, who had moved from New York.

But the attack does not appear to have started there. According to India’s Home Ministry, the first shots were fired at the train station, and soon after that at the Leopold Café.”



The account of eyewitnesses and the earliest reports are very clear. The ‘terrorists’ went into Nariman House. Later reports keep insisting that they ‘stormed’ the house.

Anonymous said...

What did they look like?

At least some of the terrorists were fair-skinned foreigners.

From the Guardian of UK

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2008/nov/27/mumbai-terror-attacks-india4



“One police officer who encountered the gunmen as they entered the Jewish centre told the Guardian the attackers were "white"”

"I went into the building late last night," he said. "I got a shock because they were white. I was expecting them to look like us. They fired three shots. I fired 10 back.”

Now, Indians know fair skinned Indians and Pakistanis. They meet them every day, especially in Mumbai, where all the upper class Indians congregate. Indians know foreigners and they call Americans and Europeans “foreigners” or “white”. It is easy for an Indian to tell the difference between a fair skinned Indian or Pakistani and a “foreigner”

Other eyewitnesses at other locations also describe the terrorists as “foreign” or fair skinned.

From the BBC

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/low/south_asia/7752625.stm

Then, the "foreign looking, fair skinned" men, as Mr Mishra remembers them, simply carried on killing.

"They did not look Indian, they looked foreign. One of them, I thought, had blonde hair. The other had a punkish hairstyle. They were neatly dressed," says Mr Amir.



While at the Nariman House:

Celebrations:

From DNA India

http://www.dnaindia.com/report.asp?newsid=1209852

“Some residents claimed that the suspects were keeping track of the police’s movements through a television in Nariman House.

“When the news of top police officials getting killed flashed in the television, we heard loud noises from the flat. It seemed they were celebrating,” Anand Raorane, a resident in a building opposite Nariman House, said.”

Some in India claim that the terrorists were targeting some of India’s top anti-terrorist officers, and indeed a number of top officers including Hemant Karare, who were in the process of investigating an explosive case of terrorist activities by army officers and politicians, were killed. It is very strange that these exceptionally experienced men would so easily be killed. Some reports say they were ambushed. It was at the time that the news of these men’s demise was announced that sounds of celebration came from the Chabad office.

Anonymous said...

The Arrrest of Israeli Security Officer

While the standoff between the security forces and the terrorists in Nariman House was going on an Israeli ‘security officer’ at the Israeli consulate close by was arrested while running to the scene.

From the Jerusalem Post

http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=1227702378439&pagename=JPost%2FJPArticle%2FS

“The security officer at the Israeli consulate in Mumbai was arrested by Indian police as he raced toward the Chabad House last Wednesday after Rabbi Gavriel Holtzberg telephoned to say it was under attack.”

Was this ‘attack’ referring to attack by the terrorists or by security forces? It is not clear as yet. The officer was released from jail a few hours later according to the Jerusalem Post.

Also India continuously refused Israeli offers to help with the crisis:

http://www.zeenews.com/world/2008-11-28/487051news.html

“Jerusalem, Nov 28: India has turned down an offer by Israel to send its Crack Commandos to Mumbai, where a Jewish centre has been taken over in the terrorist attack which have claimed so far over 160 lives, media reports said here.”



The Nanny and the rescue of the two-year old Moshe Holtzberg.

As the standoff progressed, the nanny of the two-year old child of Rabbi Gavriel Holtzberg, Sandra Samuel, came running out with the little boy. Whether he was the subject of a daring rescue or was sent out by his parents is unclear. The dizzying array of reports, many contradicting the others, that describe this incident leaves the question unanswered. Only when police question the nanny would this be resolved.

Anonymous said...

The number of hostages and terrorists

According to recent police reports there were fifteen terrorists in all who came by boat.

From TIMES ONLINE

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/asia/article5265938.ece

“At least five terrorist gunmen might have escaped the carnage in Mumbai and could strike again, it emerged yesterday as a video surfaced showing the capture of the gang’s sole known surviving member.”

“However, a hijacked Indian fishing boat used by the gunmen had equipment for 15 men on board when it was discovered adrift – suggesting that several gunmen could still be at large.”

“Fifteen winter jackets were found, fifteen toothbrushes,” a police source said. “That more terrorists are loose is possible.”

Again there are conflicting reports on the number of terrorists and possible hostages that were in Nariman House. At the end of the seige by security forces, there were six bodies of hostages found. Some reports insist five bodies were found plus two alleged terrorists. This will remain unclear until Indian security personnel who conducted the raid tell their stories.

It would seem from many eyewitness reports and local media that as the standoff continued, there were only two ‘hostages’, the Rabbi and his wife, and the rest were terrorists.

From DNA India

http://www.dnaindia.com/report.asp?newsid=1209852

“The six terrorists who have made an Israeli family hostage at Nariman House building in Colaba can battle with the security agencies for at least three days without having to worry about food, local residents claimed on Thursday.”

From Yahoo News

http://news.yahoo.com/s/time/20081128/wl_time/08599186266100

“From the vantage point of three Black Cat snipers watching the building, I could see Nariman House's shattered windows. The couple who own the building are Jewish, giving rise to rumors throughout the day that "Israelis" were somehow involved in the attacks. The other people in the building, including an infant wearing a pink bonnet and green blanket, were held as hostages but released early Thursday.

The last person to leave, a young woman, told authorities that the only remaining hostages were the couple, who had made no sound or movement since the night before. By 5 p.m. they were presumed to be dead, and the Black Cat commandos moved in half an hour later, unleashing a volley of gunshots into the building. By 9:30 p.m. local time, the firing was still going on, and it was not clear whether the four to five suspects inside had been killed or captured. “



India’s elite commando squad would surely have a very good idea about the number of people they were dealing with especially after speaking with the young woman and the nanny.

From Mid-Day News


http://www.mid-day.com/news/2008/nov/281108-Nariman-House-terror-hub.htm



" One of the militants called up a television news channel and voiced his demands today, but, interestingly, when he was asked where are they all holed him, he said at the Israeli owned Nariman House and they are six of them here", one of the investigating cops said. Since morning, there has been exchange of gun fire has been going on and the militants seem well equipped to counter the cops fire. To top it, they have food and shelter. One wonders if they have the support of the residents, a local Ramrao Shanker said. “

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