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Thursday, December 11, 2008

Offer for Dialouge, Debate or Forum on Islam

There has been a lot of tension with regards to several issues on Islam lately. There is a blogger whom have already lodge a police report against another blogger for defamation. The case is so unique that officers of Special Branch was sent to interview him during the report lodging session.


I myself believe in communication. Therefore, should there be anyone who wishes to debate an Islamist on matters related to Islam or Islamic Jurisprudence, i would like to offer my meager services.

In other words, i offer my services to debate anyone, anywhere and anytime on matters related to islam and Islamic Jurisprudence.

or if debate is too harsh, I can also do dialogue or even forum.


The entire session can be done in either Bahasa Malaysia or English. My challenge goes out to all you Islamophobes who thrives in the anti islam website the Malaysiatoday.

Please be man enough to debate me face to face in front of a crowd. That is the measure of your faith in your belief or understanding of Islam.

Heck, I am also willing to debate Raja Petra Kamaruddin or Haris Ibrahim if allowed. Or even both of them at the same time.

I have debated them before in the cyber world, lets cross over to the real world. I have no fear. I know God is on my side.

Drop me an email at malaysiawaves@rocketmail.com should anyone wishes to accept my challenge or offer.

After all, Islamists have always been accused as being closed and stringent plus not open to dialogue.

Well i hope this offer of mine negates such notion effectively.


Tulang Besi

89 comments:

John Bastille said...

Tulang Besi,

Thank you for your offer to discuss Islamic matters with you. However, my brief encounter with you has been quite disappointing as you seem very quick to focus on denigrating the writer instead of focusing on the points of discussion. In fact, your open invitation has already labelled people as Islamophobes.

You have the tendency to insult your debaters instead on focusing on the issue. I am confused and am not too sure whether that action you adopt is by emulating your Prophet or not.

Another thing, when discussing issues, are you able to quote Sahih sources like the Quran, Sunnahs and Hadiths? The last time I tried, you replied with merely commentaries. Anyone can write commentaries. By the way, wikipedia can and is written and edited by everyone. It's not really authentic.

Anonymous said...

kahkahklah.. john da kaldai mai lagi..hindu kush = hindu slaughter..kahkahkah..kaldai ni ambik istilah dari hindu.net kot..kahkahkah..

Tulang Besi said...

Dear John Bastilles.

I am very harsh on people who don't get their facts right.

Your example that Hindu Kush means Hindu Blood is a MAJOR BLOOPER on your side.

So, i don't think the likes of you is qualified enough to debate anyone.

You need to go back and get your facts right first. You need to do that very badly.

Anonymous said...

Hai Tb,
Debating with them will not solve anything.What perhaps should be done is to understand the spritual signifance and the "height" of the verses.To do that,certain other scared texts might help in order deciper,unlock the inner secrets of the holy quran

Anonymous said...

TB,

If you are so confident of your truths, why don't you take up Ali Sina's challenge at
http://www.faithfreedom.org/challenge.htm

You can then convince the whole world that yours is the truth and absolute truth. In addition, there's is a US$50,000 if you can win that challenge.

Btw, faith = belief without proof or reason.
See;
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/faith

On a rational basis, you have already lost even before you get started.

Rational

John Bastille said...

Tulang Besi,

There you go again, hyping on trivial issues. Kindly refer to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hindu_Kush. Please look below the paragraph that you copied and pasted. You'll find the interpretation.

Anyway, the idea is to debate on the Medina Charter but you seem to be more interested in finding one alleged blooper on a minor issue of defining Hindu Kush and then write-off the person. So much of an intellectual debater.

Since this is your site, I'll let you keep your pride. You have found a way to avoid discussing on the ongoing issues.

However, I would like to share a verse from the Quran 049.011 “Believers! Let not some men among you laugh at others, deriding folk that are better than they are. Nor
defame nor be sarcastic, nor call each other by nicknames: Ill-seeming is a name connoting
wickedness.”

Peace be unto you.

John Bastille said...

Dear Rational,

Your invitation for Tulang Besi to debate with Ali Sina is unfair. Tulang Besi still debates at a typical Level I muslim style. He uses verbal abuses on the personage and only apply commentaries for his facts. He uses wikipedia instead of sahih sources.

I don't think Ali Sina would spend much time with him.

John Bastille said...

Tulang Besi,

You have also made a MAJOR BLOOPER in one comment when you ranted about muslims in India being under-represented.

You confessed "I'd like to make a correction, the Muslim population of India is 13% and not 30%. It's a typo."

The difference between 13% and a 30% is large and a typo is not a possible excuse.

My my, you so quick to brush people off and discount their contents and make attempts to diminish their personage by calling them names like dumb, stupid, and Islamphobes. Tulang Besi, you made mistakes too. But no, I'm not one to gloat at your face. I still think you could debate as a civilised person.

Anyway, my original intention is to discuss issues and not come down to a low level of attacking the opponents' characters and personality. Not really into mud-slinging and name-calling. It's a sin and is against my religion.

Anonymous said...

TB to debate the issue one has to have open mind. Ur brain is fixed. All must say Islam is right and muslims are ill treated all over the world. How can muslims be rich..when the riches are Muslims oil tycoons..what they do..buy weapons to fight the goverment.
The muslims must have humility to accept that other religions also have good universal values and people of other religions don't pray to devil and are lost souls.
Am I asking too much. Why Islam has no Yoga or ayurvedic medicine? Praying 5x is not same as Yoga.

Muslims are a bunch of people who behave like someone who has been indoctranated with an ideology which cannot be even discussed forget about debating! You ate the last one suited to do the job you are volunteering to do.!

BareSheen said...

Tulang Besi,

What's your qualification? Who are you that anyone should take you seriously on matters pertaining to Islam?

Please, the world has enough of self-righteous combative fundamentalists willing to argue till the world comes home.

By the way have you ever heard of Buddhist suicide bomber?

I rest my case.

Tulang Besi said...

John Bastilles says:

"You confessed "I'd like to make a correction, the Muslim population of India is 13% and not 30%. It's a typo."

Dear JB,

That's not a blooper, that's a typo.

Yours, on the other hands, is a major blooper of epic propotion.
It happened as a direct consequence of your baseless hate towards Islam

Tulang Besi said...

DEar Anonymous,

Ali SIna is a mental case. For one,just like John BAstilles, his quotation of the scriptures doesn't support his claim.

For instance in proving that Mohd is a narcissist, he quotes the QUran and how Quran praises Mohd.

That he says is evidence that Mohd is a narcissist.

Yet, the Quran is the word of God and it is God that is praising Mohd SAW.

How can that be evidence of narcissism?

Again, this ALi SIna is a clear mental case.

Trust me.

Tulang Besi said...

Dear Anon,

I went thru this ALi Sina's claim and by just glancing i can already refute half of his lies against the Prophet.

So much for a challange. It's not a challange at all.

All you need to do is refer to his sources and you can tell how weak his case is.

Tulang Besi said...

Also, if you notice, Ali Sina mixes his own tale into the body of the story with the texts he quotes from Islamic sources.

So, for the ignoramous it makes sounds very credible but in fact most of it is just his own wld imagination.

Tulang Besi said...

Dear Anon,

WHat do you mean by an open mind? Does it mean that I should reject ISlam before I can be considered as one with an open mind?

Tulang Besi said...

Dear JB,

Of course you hold Ali Sina so highly. Your MO with his is the same.

THat is:

a. Create unfounded stories about ISlam

b. Quote a few passages from the Islamic text

c. Mix your wild tales with the story taken from the scripture

d. Ensure that the text u quote from Al Quran and Al HAdeeth is not conclusive to support your claims.

e.Lastly, come up with outrageous and baseless conclusions

f. And whenever anyone points this out, attack them personally back by calling them name

JB, the jig is up. Your cock and bull story about Hindu Kush being Hindu Massacare is a dead giveaway of your sick and twisted mind.

You suck at lying and when people point out your lies, you get very angry.

Anonymous said...

Another dumbo has appeard in the name of John Sheen.."buddhist suicide bombers"..honestly lah,these mat salleh are neanderthals..f*ked up bastardos dont know aah what the LTTE's do?cynide pills,rajiv gandhi..and Sri lanka the land of hinayana buddhism is one of the most violent places on this planet!!!And what about that very famous foto of a buddhist monk burning himself to death in 1963!!

These pultis are p brained hostle beings..tau kosong tapi nak cakap panjang lebar..kahkahkah

Anonymous said...

Ooo..these mats allehs due to their dstupidity,and agitated vital like to see the image of a peacuful Buddha..but buddhism dah dont excist and these stupid morons mat sallehs who dont have a spritual heritage in their fUked up DNA go to Tibet,Bangkok,Goa,in search of instant nirvana..but usually end up screwing up gals,smoking dope after 1 minit of cross leg excercise..kahkahkah..dunggu bin bahlol mereka ni..how peacuful are those buddhist/hindu countires eh?What's appenin in Thailand,Nepal?Kahkahkah..itulah dia,we have made a terrible mistkae of allowing ourselves to be ruled by these cro magnons for far too long..kahkahkah

Wei M said...

Dear Anonymous above me. I beg to differ with your comment. Muslims around here are always open to debate. I have attended a forum where jews, christians and muslims sit together around the table and discuss harmoniously. From time to time, there are open forum where the public could go and ask any questions.

The MAJOR problem in Malaysia is that the govt@UMNO has restricted this type of activites from happening. Hence, that is why you and me are unable to understand Islam better. Please do not stereotype the Muslims. I believe this is unfair to them.

John Bastille, if you truly believe that you are right, then why not go and debate with TB? Let other people judge it - like Anwar vs Shabery. Now you sound like as if you 'avoiding' it by giving EXCUSES. Why worry if TB attack your personality? If he did during the debate between you and him, then we know that he is not as good as he think he is. Come on, dont be SCARED.

John Bastille, do you really know how to quote quran and hadeeth? Before quoting anything, you must know when/where/to whom it was revealed so that it will not be taken out of context. I can see that you try real hard to quote these stuff. Some of my muslims' friends always take great care before quoting anything from the quran/hadeeth. Please correct me if i am wrong TB.

Wei M said...

My comment is for Anonymous @ December 12, 2008 4:51 AM

Anonymous said...

And what abouty India?No doubt this country has a huge spiritual heritage,but gospels of vedanta,upanishads are not practiced by anyone!!Basically the country and the race group are inward people,but due to the effects of materialsm,and neo colonialsm,the country has is now very much afflicted..caste wars,poverty,hunger,child labour,the huge gap between the rich and poor..do u all know that Mumbai is now under the control of one pariah called Raj Thakeray,whose agenda is the land of Maharashtra is only for Marathi..wooah,all those tamils,benggali,hindi,sikh are being wallope..in fcat Bollywood idol,Amtabh belacan's wife gat a warning from this group for speaking Hindi..ahh..Raj's Uncle,Bal Thakeray is a self confesse admirer of Hitler,his counterpart Narndra Modi also syok sma Hitler,and as a result,2k musluims and other minorities were butcherd in gujerat(the infamous Gujerat pogroms)..hah,but these dunggu mat salleh under the influence of setan think they knowevertyhing..kahkahkah

John Bastille said...

Tulang Besi,

You truly are are emulating the behaviors of a self-proclaimed prophet that we learnt to dread. Your arrogance and your tendency to assassinate your critics are such manifestations.

In your own source, the wikipedia, it stats that there are 4 interpretations of the word "Kush", as in Hindu Kush. You adopted the Avestan appellation, and I adopted the Old Indian interpretation which carries the the legend of Hindukuš meaning 'slaying Hindus' is assigned to an event a hundred years after Bābur's mention of the name."

Thus, I did not made a blunder. I'm trying to make a point on the invasion of Timur and the Mughals. and their records showing the genocide of hindus at the hands of muslims warriors, in the name of their religion.

Your blooper on the 13% instead of 30% is such a huge error that it renders your entire article baseless. For example, if I were to say that the Iban represents 30% of Malaysian population and their parliamentary representation is only 3%, thus the world should understand if 23 of them went down to KL killing civilians shouting "Tuhan is Great", it means A WHOLE WORLD OF DIFFERENCE when they population is only 13%. Your blooper would have made a big FIASCO on your article. A typo without properly verifying your facts is definitely inexcusable. If you wish to debate with the Free People, you may have to set aside your inflated ego and take things professionally. As I said, I am not making use of your mistake in insulting you and brushing you off.

If you wish to debate, you would have to adopt some sense of civil behaviors. It may be hard for you, being a muslim, after all, since your upbringing has taught you never to question your faith. Now that you would like to debate on Islam, you don't seem to focus on the points.

You still keep focus on character assassinations. Insulting your opponents all the way. Bringing them down before the debate. Making yourself superior.

Perhaps, you can't really debate because you learned your religion from commentaries but have not read the shahih sources. Thus, you don't really know the finer details of your religion in truth. You only know how to regurgitate sermons and white-washed facts.

Where do you learned to verbally abuse your readers?

Tabari VIII:28 “When the Messenger approached the Jews, he said, ‘You brothers of apes! Allah shamed you and cursed you.’”

Bukhari:V5B59N449“On the day of the Qurayza siege, Allah’s Apostle said to Hassan, ‘Abuse them with your poems, for Gabriel is with you.’”

joenathan said...

Dey TB,
Even before you start a debate you find it fit to disparage people by calling them mental case and islamophobic.You seem to be getting defensive already.You are definitely not a material of choice for an intelligent debater to engage in.You seem to have a tunnel vision of people's perception of islam as you have about the hindus in India.
BTW,where on earth did you get your statistics that muslims in India are oppressed?Have you lived in India before or have you even visited India before?Get your facts right,dude before jumping to conclusion.Dont depend on mere hearsay.Display courage in a mature and intelligent way.Magnanimity is what debates,forums and discourses are all about.

Anonymous said...

Who shot that semi naked fakir poison dwarf called Gandhi?The Hindu sabha!!Who murdered Indira gandhi?Sikh khalsa taliban!!Who bombed Rajiv gandhi?LTTE!!Who bombed air india flight 182?Sikh khalsa!!Who assisinated the gov of Punjab?Sikh khalsa!!Who is responble of countless murders/and butchering in the north east of India?maoists and naxalites commies!!Who is responsble for various racial riots,pogroms in the north west?Hindu sabha!!hahaha..stupid dunggus are still occuped with hindu kush..podah pulti..at the time of timuer elang attacks..vast part of India was buddhist lah woi(including present day Pkaistan,Afghanisthan)!!In the south shankaras's falsafah,the alwars bhaktism(devotion) were the ruling consciousness and still is!!

Anonymous said...

TB Said: "Again, this ALi SIna is a clear mental case."

I have read most of Ali Sina's views on various matters and debates with reputatble Muslims.
I find his thinking very rational and he is very competent with logical and rational concepts which he referred and quoted very often.

Being an ex-Muslim, he 'sometimes' blew his top, but that do not deviate from the core arguments. He stated he was mentally and emotionally abused by his ex-faith. That is why when he started he sometimes debate in an 'angry'(which i do not condone) mode.

Since there is a USD$50,000 on offer, why not present your argument in writing to him. (No need for open debate as you do not hve established credibility yet and may not qualify). If he think your argument have substance I am sure he will offer to debate you.

If not, present your case in the forum, it is open to all. You can duplicate the argument in your blog for our reference.

His argument on MO being a Narcissist is just a side point of the whole package.

Anon1

Anonymous said...

Relgion came into exsitance to "show" the spiritual truths/aspects of the SUPREME!!From buddhism/taosim we get to know the supreme/absolute!1..frm islam,we came to know about the powers/aspects/attributes of the supreme and that tremendous vison/sight of divine's unity and oness!!From christ we came to know about the union of man,holy spirit and the divine father..frm the west what do we get?waah hey!!slaughterings,buthcerings conquests,of millions of inncoent human beings in all over the world..all in the name of christ,the 3rd reich,free market and what not!!

Anonymous said...

Oh oh..lupa frm the west we get shitty falsampahs like Ken Wilburs mumbo jumbo's,Kant,Hagel,and that german/slav called Nietzche blablabla..kahkahkah..semua mental speculations..but siki siki ada sentuh on realities lah..tapi in general langsung tak boleh pakai..kahkahkah..and ooo..b4 i forget,tarot cards,aura,occult,kaballa,pyramids....kahkahkahkah..

the only good thing that we see now is the the desire to be close with nature..to protect nature..apart frm that,no deep insight on anything spirtual..

Anonymous said...

Anon: "Who shot that semi naked fakir poison dwarf called Gandhi?"

You are indeed ignorant.

In any human group (Hindu, Buddhists, Christians, Muslims, etc,) there will always be extremists.

The difference between Muslim extremists and other groups is that 99% of Muslims extremists relied (rightly or wrongly) heavily on verses from their holy texts.

Whereas at present, 99.9% of other mainstream religious followers do not chant with their holy books when committing violence.
They commit crimes and violence on a personal and psychological level not based on their religion.

FYI, 'Hinduism' is just a convenient general and universal word used to represent spiritual practices originating from India. There is no specific religion that can really be called Hinduism. There are atheist hindus.
see: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atheism_in_Hinduism

Anon1

Anonymous said...

Yo stupid..who is Nathuram Godse?

Anonymous said...

Yalah moron..the hindu religion is known as sanatan dharmalah wooi..(laws/spriciplas of the deathless self!!)..but till this very day the real truths of sanatn dharma has not spread ou..why?becos of the super corrupt caste system lah dunggu!!And the Hindu Sabha..my goodess..all sorts of freaks r in charge..most of them north indians screwed brahmins that commit all sorts of atrociites on minories..christians,muslism,lower caste hindus,and buddhists..tak caya?pi lah gujerat n mumbai n c 4 urself..moron!!

Anonymous said...

Who is Shema Prasad Mukerjee..man this chootia used to proudly brag that he was responsible for the partition of bengal..kahkahkah..si Shema ni hindu sabha..and wanna know what happend to millions of hindu refugees that came from east bengal to kolkata/west bengal?the idea was to to protect the hindus rite?kahkahkah..most of the refugees ended up sleeping on streets,women became prostitues,and some were deported to andamans..kahkahkah...what did the central n d state gomen of d newly indepndent india do to help them?nothing!! kahkahkah..

Anonymous said...

Anon 11:59AM: ablabla..kahkahkah..semua mental speculations

Another ignorant statement.
The greatest contribution from Western Philosophy is the focus on logic and rational thinking. Logic has limitations but it has contributed greatly to mankind which included science and mathematics.

It is the application of logic and rational thinking that we can detect the scam of the occults, tarots and other supernatural teachings including the concept of god.

Theist and god concepts are pragmatic for humanity, but we need logic and rationality to ensure the spread of its abuse by extremists.

Religion has assisted humanity to maintain psychological sanity, but at the same time made good people evil.

"With or without religion, you would have good people doing good things and evil people doing evil things. But for good people to do evil things, that takes religion."
Steven Weinberg.

Anon1

Tulang Besi said...

I have read most of Ali Sina's views on various matters and debates with reputatble Muslims.
I find his thinking very rational and he is very competent with logical and rational concepts which he referred and quoted very often.


Maybe but one thing for sure, he is NOT FACTUAL.

His attacks on islam is based on his cut-and-paste understanding (or misunderstanding) of Islam.

Anonymous said...

logic and mental speculation..kahkahkah..woi pulti enufflah..asians have discovered higher ranges of mindlah wooi.....kahkahkah..one of the biggest problems facing us in interpreating the inner truths found in the vedas,upansihdas,quran is becos the revelations are not mental at all!!..the knowledge/wisdom came down from the supramnetal level/height..not at all depending on mental mumbo jumbo shit that always corrupts truth!!

Anonymous said...

alo moron..enuflahh..btw,have u heard of overmind range?have u heard of the ranges of the supermind?umm..gelenti talak!!bcos u r 2 busy trying to figure out hindu kush/kosh whatever..lol..what a clown!!

Joseph said...

Tulang Besi, can you clarify why in this world wherever there is islam, there is problem. From Checheya of Russia to Rwanda & Darfur of Africa; from Xinjiang of China to Kashmir of India; from Southern Thailand to Southern Philipines. Not to mention middle east. It's pointless for you to debate anyone if your religion condone violence at first place.

Anonymous said...

Anon: "kahkahkah..one of the biggest problems facing us in interpreating the inner truths found in the vedas,upansihdas"

Granted the Vedas possess very high Phd. level of spirituality on the absolute Brahman.

However, in reality there is no way anyone can realize it without mental activities of Hatha, Karma, Bakti, raja, jnana yoga.

Overmind, supramind, supermind, no-thought-mind, out-of-mind are as real as Superman in the cartoon.

Anonymous said...

"From christ we came to know about the union of man,holy spirit and the divine father..frm the west what do we get?"

Why do mohamedans like to misrepresent Christianity? God the Son became man so that man can become truly human. The Law is not a ladder to heaven. The Law says: NO EXIT. God Himself must come down to save man in his total and aboslute incapacity. God is three Persons but one essence. The Son of God is the Second Person. The Sonship is ETERNAL - no beginning; no end. So, unlike muhammad, we do not deify or divinise a man, Jesus is already divine by virtue of Who He is as the Son of God .....

Anonymous said...

TB Said: "Maybe but one thing for sure, he is NOT FACTUAL.
His attacks on islam is based on his cut-and-paste understanding (or misunderstanding) of Islam."


Now, you are NOT FACTUAL with the above statement. Ali Sina used various extensive sources (not soley cut-and-paste) in his arguments. His cut-and-paste (obviously needed) are complemented with reasonable explanations.

When i read the whole of Ali Sina presentation and views in his website, I believe his arguments are very reasonable and convincing.

Since his view are not leverage on faith (i.e. belief without proof) I would give him more credibility than believers who tend to be psychologically blinded by their faith.

btw, i read Ali Sina page and noted he has now double his rewards to US$100,000 to be shared by the introducer and the debater.

Note:
As of this day, I am also doubling the reward. If you are not a reputable scholar, you can still win the prize. All you have to do is persuade a scholar to debate with me. If he (she) disproves my charges or can prove that Muhammad was a prophet of God, both you and he (she) will be rewarded $50,000 dollars each.

hee..hee don't forget to mention me if you by any chance happen to win.

John Bastille said...

Dear Anon dated December 12, 2008 1:48 PM,

You asked a question "Why do mohamedans like to misrepresent Christianity?"

Allow me to narrate one text from
Sahih Nukhari:Volume 4, Book 56, Number 814:

Narrated Anas:

There was a Christian who embraced Islam and read Surat-al-Baqara and Al-Imran, and he used to write (the revelations) for the Prophet. Later on he returned to Christianity again and he used to say: "Muhammad knows nothing but what I have written for him."

From the above text, there is evidence that most of the muslims' prophet borrowed bibilical stories, mixed with the Jews' Talmud as well as some pagan stories, e.g. giant she-camel being hamstringed as well as some folks sleeping with the dogs for centuries.

However, the above text continues

"Then Allah caused him to die, and the people buried him, but in the morning they saw that the earth had thrown his body out. They said, "This is the act of Muhammad and his companions. They dug the grave of our companion and took his body out of it because he had run away from them." They again dug the grave deeply for him, but in the morning they again saw that the earth had thrown his body out. They said, "This is an act of Muhammad and his companions. They dug the grave of our companion and threw his body outside it, for he had run away from them." They dug the grave for him as deep as they could, but in the morning they again saw that the earth had thrown his body out. So they believed that what had befallen him was not done by human beings and had to leave him thrown (on the ground)."

Of course, we commonly know what would happen to people who left Islam.

Fauzi said...

Dear TB,

Pls be careful when debating religion. Are you sure you have the proper qualifications? I have heard from ulama that argumentation about religion can be makruh for ulama (due to the evils that can arise from it) and haram for lay persons. If there needs to be some debate to clarify matters, i would rather see someone who is properly schooled in our religion (a specialist) and skillful in articulation to be the debater.

Tulang Besi said...

Now, you are NOT FACTUAL with the above statement. Ali Sina used various extensive sources (not soley cut-and-paste) in his arguments. His cut-and-paste (obviously needed) are complemented with reasonable explanations.

yeah, if he uses extensive sources, then I am the king of France.

He pick and chooses parts of information he wants and rejects whatever he feels might effect his conclusion.

For instance, on the issue of Khaibar:

a. He refuse to take the fact that Jewish leaders sent delegations to meet the Mekah Idol worshipper to form alliances in toppling the Medina government

b. The jews tried to poison the Prophet twice but failed

c. They have never ceased to declare their enmity to the Prophet SAW before the final battle of Khaibar.

So, Ali Sina pick and chooses his source so as to show that his conclusion is credible.

In truth, he's nothing more than your run of the mills con man.

He lacks all substance and is filled with nothing but lies.

Anonymous said...

So, Ali Sina pick and chooses his source so as to show that his conclusion is credible.
In truth, he's nothing more than your run of the mills con man.
He lacks all substance and is filled with nothing but lies.


I am not an expert on the issue so i will not argue with you on this.

However, i noted in his debates with others he always has an explanation and reason for why he used a particular verse and not the others in relation to an issue.

This is what i admire about Ali Sina. Everytime he appeared to be cornered, he is able to give an explanation.
Most of the time it is a question of miscommunication and omission due to the intention and context used.

Read some of his debates and you will note that he do not purposely omit verses as a basis to win arguments. e.g.
http://www.faithfreedom.org/debates/EdipYuksel.htm

So the best way to understand why he left out the verses you mentioned is to ask him. I am very confident he will give you a reasonable basis for that.

Ali Sina had put US$100,000 of his wealth and reputation at stake since 2001 and i am sure he is by now well researched to counter all your negative views.

Would you dare to part with
US$100,000if you lose the challenge.

Anon1

Anonymous said...

Typo error

John Bastille said..

The difference between 13% and a 30% is large and a typo is not a possible excuse.

Your blooper on the 13% instead of 30% is such a huge error that it renders your entire article baseless.


To err is human

BUT

these are not typo errors:

2 Samuel 24:9 1 & Chronicles 21:5
2 Samuel 24:9
9 And Joab gave up the sum of the number of the people unto the king: and there were in Israel eight hundred thousand valiant men that drew the sword; and the men of Judah were five hundred thousand men.
1 Chronicles 21:5
5 And Joab gave the sum of the number of the people unto David. And all they of Israel were a thousand thousand and an hundred thousand men that drew sword: and Judah was four hundred threescore and ten thousand men that drew sword.

2 Samuel 24:13 & 1 Chronicles 21:12
2 Samuel 24:13
13 So Gad came to David, and told him, and said unto him, Shall seven years of famine come unto thee in thy land? or wilt thou flee three months before thine enemies, while they pursue thee? or that there be three days' pestilence in thy land? now advise, and see what answer I shall return to him that sent me.
1 Chronicles 21:12
12 Either three years' famine; or three months to be destroyed before thy foes, while that the sword of thine enemies overtaketh thee; or else three days the sword of the LORD, even the pestilence, in the land, and the angel of the LORD destroying throughout all the coasts of Israel. Now therefore advise thyself what word I shall bring again to him that sent me.
2 Samuel 23:8 & 1 Chronicles 11:11
2 Samuel 23:8
8 These be the names of the mighty men whom David had: The Tachmonite that sat in the seat, chief among the captains; the same was Adino the Eznite: he lift up his spear against eight hundred, whom he slew at one time.
1 Chronicles 11:11
11 And this is the number of the mighty men whom David had; Jashobeam, an Hachmonite, the chief of the captains: he lifted up his spear against three hundred slain by him at one time.
“About the Bible” “……..The books of the Bible had many different authors, living at different times and in different places. Yet not one of these writers contradicts another. God guided them so that they wrote in their own words what he wanted them to say. This means that the Bible is completely dependable and trustworthy book. We can believe everything it says because it comes from God….” – HOLY BIBLE NIV

Anonymous said...

Anonymous said...
Ali Sina had put US$100,000 of his wealth and reputation at stake since 2001 and i am sure he is by now well researched to counter all your negative views.
$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$
Surah 2. The Cow
6. As to those who reject Faith, it is the same to them whether thou warn them or do not warn them; they will not believe.
7. Allah hath set a seal on their hearts and on their hearing, and on their eyes is a veil; great is the penalty they (incur).
9. Fain would they deceive Allah and those who believe, but they only deceive themselves, and realise (it) not!
10. In their hearts is a disease; and Allah has increased their disease: And grievous is the penalty they (incur), because they are false (to themselves).
15. Allah will throw back their mockery on them, and give them rope in their trespasses; so they will wander like blind ones (To and fro).
16. These are they who have bartered Guidance for error: But their traffic is profitless, and they have lost true direction,
17. Their similitude is that of a man who kindled a fire; when it lighted all around him, Allah took away their light and left them in utter darkness. So they could not see.
18. Deaf, dumb, and blind, they will not return (to the path).


The Meanings Of The Holy Qur'an
by Abdullah Yusufali

Anonymous said...

Fauzi said...

Dear TB,

Pls be careful when debating religion. Are you sure you have the proper qualifications?

---------------------------------
Surah Al-Baqarah (The Cow)

112. Nay,-whoever submits His whole self to Allah and is a doer of good,- He will get his reward with his Lord; on such shall be no fear, nor shall they grieve.

- Quran translation by Abdullah Yusufali

Anonymous said...

Sdr Fauzi

Al Baqarah

193. Dan perangilah mereka itu sehingga tidak ada fitnah,101) dan adalah agama bagi Allah semata-mata. Maka jika mereka berhenti,maka tidak ada permusuhan lagi kecuali terhadap orang-orang yang zalim.


- Al quran terjemah Indonesia

101) yang di maksudkan fitnah di sini ialah syirik, juga yang mengandung fitnah kepada risalah Muhammad s.a.w.

Anonymous said...

Fauzi said...
Dear TB,
Pls be careful when debating religion. Are you sure you have the proper qualifications?


Qualification in the interpretation of holy texts is VERY subjective.

Btw, who is the most qualified Muslim Scholar?

Whoever it is, I am quite sure they are terrorised by their own internal terror and as best can only expressed personal opinions.

Anonymous said...

Anonymous said...


Why do mohamedans like to misrepresent Christianity? God the Son became man so that man can become truly human. The Law is not a ladder to heaven. The Law says: NO EXIT. God Himself must come down to save man in his total and aboslute incapacity. God is three Persons but one essence. The Son of God is the Second Person. The Sonship is ETERNAL - no beginning; no end. So, unlike muhammad, we do not deify or divinise a man, Jesus is already divine by virtue of Who He is as the Son of God .....

Mohamedans like to misrepresent Christianity?

Jesus is already divine by virtue of Who He is as the son of God.

What about the

Gospel of Mark 12:29
Gospel of John 14:28, 5:30
Gospel of John 10:29
Gospel of Matthew 12:28
Gospel of Luke 11:20

First Epistle of John 5:7

In the Revised Standard Version of the Bible (RSV) revised by 32 Christian scholars of the highest eminence backed by 50 different co-operating denominations, this verse which is the keystone of the Christian faith has been removed as an interpolation, as a fabrication and as a concoction because this verse does not exist in the original manuscript.

Who removed the verse – first Epistle of John 5:7?

The Doctors of Divinity expunged it. Is it true?

The Gospel According to John 3:16

“For God so loved the world the He gave His only begotten Son.”

The blasphemous word “begotten” has been taken out from the Revised Standard Version (RSV) and many other new versions of the Bible. The RSV is claimed by the Church of England newspaper as “the finest version which has been produced in the present century”; and it goes back to the most ancient manuscript, some two to three hundred years after Jesus (pbuh). According to the times, it is “the most accurate and close rendering of the Original”

Al Ma’idah (The Table Spread-V) 5:82

82. Strongest among men in enmity to the believers wilt thou find the Jews and Pagans; and nearest among them in love to the believers wilt thou find those who say, "We are Christians": because amongst these are men devoted to learning and men who have renounced the world, and they are not arrogant.

(The Holy Quran English translation by Abdullah Yusuf Ali)

Anonymous said...

Anonymous said...

Am I asking too much. Why Islam has no Yoga or ayurvedic medicine? Praying 5x is not same as Yoga.

---
True Praying 5x is not same as Yoga.
Please feel free to visit www.weird asia news.com on the article "secret behind Indian Guru Levitation Revealed"

nawfal said...

Yo JB, RPK, Haris Ibrahim and what not, apa tunggu lagi.

Why give thousands of excuse? Come debate in real world lah!!

TB, I'm willing to pay for rental of the venue!!

Anonymous said...

Anonymous said...

The Son of God is the Second Person. The Sonship is ETERNAL - no beginning; no end. So, unlike muhammad, we do not deify or divinise a man, Jesus is already divine by virtue of Who He is as the Son of God .....

Is he the only son?

Luke 3:23-38
Psalms 2:7
Psalms 82:6
1 Chronicles 22:10
Exodus 4:22

Fauzi said...

Anon said...

Qualification in the interpretation of holy texts is VERY subjective.

Btw, who is the most qualified Muslim Scholar?

---------------------------------
Regarding subjectivity of interpreting holy (here Qur'anic) text, I used to have the same thinking. However, after studying the matter, it is clear that there are accepted objective criteria for qualification on matters islamic.

These criteria are what is generally agreed upon by consensus of the ulama' and accepted by the ummah.

It is also common sense. Like when trying to interpret the qur'an, we must of course at least know classical arabic. In fact one should know it very well to properly understand a verse. If not, it is safest to rely on accepted understandings as elucidated by ulama' of tafsir. This is clear because for e.g. a translation is only an interpretation of a particular shade of meaning and there may be multiple meanings. Also, the knowledge of the context of revelation of particular qur'anic verses must also be known.

There are people who try to justify certain actions, which are contrary to the accepted position in Islam, on the basis of their understanding of the English translation of the Qur'an. This is the height of folly.

On the matter of who are qualified scholars, it is like being a qualified scientist. To be a qualified scientist you need to have the proper basic education in science, then progress under the tutelage of a senior supervisor and obtain the requisite degrees. After (and during) which your research work is constantly scrutinised by peers in the scientific community. A similar process happens in the community of islamic scholars. They need to get basic knowledge, then progress from that, and get ijaza's from shaykhs who studied from their shaykhs who studied from their shaykhs.... all the way to the Prophet (pbuh).

Also, just as certain things are held as accepted based on overwhelming evidence by the community of scientists in general, certain things are also held to be true on the basis of overwhelming evidence by the community of ulama'.

In the matter of debates, it's just my concern that if someone does not have proper skill and knowledge, the debater might be stumped, or misrepresent something, such that that would cast a negative light on the religion as a whole. Whereas someone knowledgeable may be able to answer the question easily and satisfactorily.

Anonymous said...

These criteria are what is generally agreed upon by consensus of the ulama' and accepted by the ummah.

Let say human spirituality is within a range from Kindergarten to Phd. level.

Animism and crude idol worshipping being ranked at the kindergarten level.

In my assessment of Abrahamic religions, I would rank the spirituality of Islam in general (not the Sufi which goes higher) within the range of the primary to early secondary levels. ( I can demonstrate this but not in this post)

Therefore whatever consensus the ulama and ummah agreed upon, the maximum level of spirituality reachable is up to form 3 level for the majority.

My above argument is based on the understanding of human nature and its spirituality.

Every normal human being has exactly the same standard digestive system. Therefore if you understand the digestive system from any culture, as scientist, a medical doctor, or specialist, to the highest level, one will be able to cure, prevent and improve the digest system of any human.

The spiritual system of every human is the same as constituted in the body and especially the brain, mind and consciousness.

The saints, sages and mystics of non-abrahamic religions and spiritualists had studied this standard human spiritual systems for thousands of years and make a lot of advances to it up the the Phd. level.

At present, the various neurosciences and neuropsychology are making advances in this standard spirituality as well. Soon it would be possible for neuroscience to pin point which areas of the brain to improve on to advance one's spirituality.

Thus there is nothing much for your ulama and ummah to brag when they are ignorant and resist the advances of the actual objective spiritual system within each human.

The advance of spirituality in humans can be recorded in brain scan images.

If you update your self with the above knowledge, you will be able to know where you stand in terms of your spirituality.

Tulang Besi said...

Therefore whatever consensus the ulama and ummah agreed upon, the maximum level of spirituality reachable is up to form 3 level for the majority.

What about the whisper of the devil? Would u consider that as part of your spirituality?

Tulang Besi said...

Therefore whatever consensus the ulama and ummah agreed upon, the maximum level of spirituality reachable is up to form 3 level for the majority.

What about the whisper of the devil? Would u consider that as part of your spirituality?

Fauzi said...

Anon said...

In my assessment of Abrahamic religions, I would rank the spirituality of Islam in general (not the Sufi which goes higher) within the range of the primary to early secondary levels. ( I can demonstrate this but not in this post)
-----------------------------------

I'm not sure what you mean by "spirituality of Islam in general", but as far Sufism (or tasawwuf) goes, it is part and parcel of and indispensible to Islam. All of the great Imams of the Law (syari'ah) were also Masters of tasawwuf and affairs of the heart.

Islam is not as bereft in matters of spiritual advancement as you may think. The history of Islamic mystical thought and experience is extensive, varied and profound.

Imam Malik said: “He who practices tasawwuf without learning Sacred Law corrupts his faith, while he who learns Sacred Law without practicing tasawwuf corrupts himself. Only he who combines the two proves true.”

Anonymous said...

TB:What about the whisper of the devil? Would u consider that as part of your spirituality?

No. What is commonly term as 'whisper of the devil' would be on the negative side of spirituality if you put human behavior on a graph.

The work of the devil or Satan is within your and the human brain and its activity. Evil can be objectively determined from brain scans.

Note:
Most Evil

In the absence of the neurosciences and detailed study of the internal brain and mind, the ignorant 1500 years ago and even today would attribute all sorts of what they regard as negative to the work of Satan or is evil.

It is very easy to invoke the 'evil' neural program.exe in any human by various neuroscience and neuropschological approaches. The 'evil' program is a basic inherent program of human nature.
It is just a matter of activating and deactivating certain neuron network in the human brain.

While it is easy to invoke the human evil program, it is tougher to improve one's spirituality level.

Most of what is term as 'evil' can be explained by neurosciences and neuropsychiatry.
e.g. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neuropsychiatry

Anonymous said...

Fauzi: I'm not sure what you mean by "spirituality of Islam in general"

"In General" = as practiced by the majority 95% (personal estimation) of Muslims in the world.

I am very aware Sufism is part of Islam but I purposely seggregated out Sufism as it is regarded as haram by the majority of Muslim.

If every Muslim were to practice CORE Sufism, i am sure, there would be no Muslim-related terrorism at all.

A genuine Sufi would readily understand (not adopt and practice) Yoga and it's CORE spiritual principles, i.e. "be one with god". But note the paranoid fatwa on Yoga.

Fauzi said...

Anon said...

I am very aware Sufism is part of Islam but I purposely seggregated out Sufism as it is regarded as haram by the majority of Muslim.
-----------------------------------

This is an excerpt from "The Place of Tasawwuf in Traditional Islam", 1998 by Sh. Nuh Ha Mim Keller.

"For all of the reasons we have mentioned, Tasawwuf was accepted as an essential part of the Islamic religion by the ‘ulama of this Umma. The proof of this is all the famous scholars of Shari‘a sciences who had the higher education of Tasawwuf, among them Ibn ‘Abidin, al-Razi, Ahmad Sirhindi, Zakariyya al-Ansari, al-‘Izz ibn ‘Abd al-Salam, Ibn Daqiq al-‘Eid, Ibn Hajar al-Haytami, Shah Wali Allah, Ahmad Dardir, Ibrahim al-Bajuri, ‘Abd al-Ghani al-Nabulsi, Imam al-Nawawi, Taqi al-Din al-Subki, and al-Suyuti."

Also,

"This is why Tasawwuf was taught as
part of the traditional curriculum in madrasas across the Muslim world from Malaysia to Morocco, why many of the greatest Shari‘a scholars of this Umma have been
Sufis, and why until the end of the Islamic caliphate at the beginning of this century and the subsequent Western control and cultural dominance of Muslim lands, there were teachers of Tasawwuf in Islamic institutions of higher learning from Lucknow to
Istanbul to Cairo."

How then can you say that tasawwuf is considered to be haram by the majority of Muslims when all the ulama agree that it is an indispensible part of Islam and the ummah in general follow them? I mean, who else teaches the ummah in their religion if it isn't the ulama'?

To drive the point of the cruciality of tasawwuf, I point you to a lecture by our very own Tn Guru Nik Aziz Nik Mat which you can search in youtube. He said:

"tasawwuf adalah satu juzuk dalam Islam yang tak boleh dipisah-pisahkan, sebagaimana fiqh adalah satu juzuk dalam Islam yang tak boleh dipisah-pisahkan"

The fact is that tasawwuf is not at all considered haram by the majority.

But, there are certain groups which claim to be Sufis but are actually heretical - these are considered to be haram. Their key characteristic - inadherence to the Shari'ah.

Anonymous said...

Fauzi: But, there are certain groups which claim to be Sufis but are actually heretical - these are considered to be haram. Their key characteristic - inadherence to the Shari'ah.

Whether Shari'ah or no Shari'ah, is not relevant to the development of spirituality. The critical reality is whether there are actual development of spiritual neurons in the brain/mind.

By whatever name, as long as the Sufism deal directly with spirituality progress, i would have no qualms about it.

Infact i note those from the Quran-Only Muslims faction in general manifest a higher spiritual than those who adhere to the Hadiths.

You can claim that 'sufism' is recognized by all Muslims.
I do not agree with that.
From what i read, most Muslims would denounce any elements of mysticism that the normal sufi practices.
Wahabism, Salafism, are notoriously anti-sufi.

Just google "anti-sufi" and you will get an idea.

Here is one example,
Iran: Qom Authorities Crack Down On Sufis
"More than before, people are running away from a totalitarian interpretation of the religion, they are having doubts, and they have lost faith in the work of those who consider themselves custodians of religion," he maintains. "By contrast, they feel very close to the Sufi teachings and its customs, which are based on love."
http://www.payvand.com/news/06/feb/1135.html

If you are a genuine Sufi, i would have no 'quarrels' with you.

Anonymous said...

Iranians suprresing sufis?kahkahkah..what baloney..sufism is part of Iranians conciousness lah..actully aah..sufism is a highly efective form of devotional worship to THE SUPREME..honestly speaking..Islam,and the verses in the holy quran is all about spiritual laws/aspects/principals/workings of THE SUPREME/ABSOLUTE/DIVINE/THE LORD/GOD..ok..it cannot be anything else.. our mind is fragmented..as a result we see things separately..spirituality on one side..politcs,governance,life in general on lain lain category..when in actual fact,from the supreme's angle everthing is within his domain,his command...nothing can be left out..total union,vison of everthing..every formation,every rupa bentuk,every thing,matter ,plants,grass,sea,wind,us, are actually extentions of HIMSELF thru time and space..

Anonymous said...

the "thing" that connects us and the supeme is the soul(ruh)..it's the soul lah a portion of the SUPREME HIMSELF..it's the soul in us the individual that bows down to SUPREME bacos it's actaully the portion of THE SUPRE ME HIMSELF..ini talak kalu ..habis pocheelah kito..langsung talak chan utk hidup..have u all ever noticed that nothing is static on this earth?everday is something "new"..doesnt matter we "naik" ke,"turun" ke..something "new" always happens...it's something different all the time..dats d speciality of everthing on earth..not like that storm that has been circulating in Jupiter(i think) for over 1000 years..everthing everytime bertukar wajah..apasai?It's due to the pressures from the soul..the pressure to "evolve"..look at us..we were sperm at one time,then we grew to baby..then to kanak kanak (asyik ganggu mak bapak bili toy)..now to a 2sen commentator,curi masa utk berbla bla di sini..kahkahkah..but the soul is eternal..

Fauzi said...

I would contend that the Shari'ah is the precondition to tasawwuf and therefore takes precedence. This is the consensus of the ulama' and the position of Islam on the matter. You may disagree but that is the fact.

Tasawwuf has always been and will always be not only accepted but one of the chief components of Islam.

The Qur'an only faction is hopelessly misguided and do not have a foot to stand on. The facts show that they are a fringe group and the majority of muslims do not agree with them.

Wahhabism and Salafism are very new and complex developments in the history of Islam. You are correct to say that there are "anti-Sufi" elements in those movements. But they do not represent the majority. They are however well-funded due to their links with some oil-rich MidEast governments.

Anonymous said...

Jangan banyak debat

2170. Dari Abu Hurairah r.a. katanya dia mendengar Rasulullah s.a.w. bersabda: "Apa yang ku larang kamu mengerjakannya hentikanlah. Dan apa yang ku perintahkan kamu mengerjakannya, lakukanlah sehabis dayamu. Sesungguhnya umat yang sebelum kamu binasa kerana mereka banyak bertanya, dan banyak berdebat terhadap nabi-nabi mereka."
- Hadis Sahih Muslim di terjemah oleh Mamur Daud

Anonymous said...

Anonymous said...

Infact i note those from the Quran-Only Muslims faction in general manifest a higher spiritual than those who adhere to the Hadiths.

What?
Quran-Only 'Muslims'?
Do you mean those Anti-Hadith?

John Bastille said...

Anonymous said...

Infact i note those from the Quran-Only Muslims faction in general manifest a higher spiritual than those who adhere to the Hadiths.

Yes, I agree. The Hadiths are filled with hatred and violence. They were narrated by rapists and murderers.

John Bastille said...

Sorry, they were narrated by the early muslims who followed the orders and wishes of the Prophet.

But, no biggie. No difference.

Anonymous said...

Gotcha

Tulang Besi said...

So basically you're not interested in the truth

You only want to follow what you want and discard what you hate.

Dr. Raju M. Mathew said...

ISLAM, CHRISTANITY AND CONSUMERISM:
THE GLOBAL ECONOMIC CRISIS –
THE GREAT DEPRESSION II

DR. RAJU M. MATHEW

Global Economic Crisis

The world is under a great economic crisis. For the conventional economists it is only a Recession and not a Depression at all, for their partial analytical techniques, over-simplified models with unrealistic assumptions and over emphasis on data. It may take at least five years for them to realize that it would be a Great Depression and by that time it may be over. When Cybernetics is employed for the study of the working of the global economy as a whole with multi-sector approaches on the basis of the deeper understanding of Political Economy, we are forced to admit that this is not a simple Recession, but the Great Depression II that requires not only Economic Stimulus but Ethical or Spiritual and Political Stimulus Packages too to recover.

Consumerism

Not only the capitalist or developed countries but also the Socialist or Islamist or Less Developed Countries too are brought under the Great Depression II. It is not only Islam or Christianity but also Communism could not save the world from Consumerism and the unethical or immoral business practices that are hundred times deadlier than Materialism or even Atheism. Consumerism has emerged as the greatest threat to the very existence of Capitalism for it drained away saving and investment, that constitute Capital without which there is no Capitalism.

The corporate culture has corrupted almost all religions and communist movements and made them the victims of Consumerism. The corporate culture made everything expensive and unaffordable for the majority for it aims only ‘the chosen few’. It has speeded up the process of the demise of spirituality and moral values. Eroding of the basic spiritual values has paved the way for greed, fraud and corruptions at all level. The present crisis is the result of the total moral, ethical and spiritual failures rather then the economic and technical ones.

Animal Farms

Both Capitalism and Socialism are built up with thrift, mobilization and allocation of resources, production and distribution and treating consumers as rational human being and giving emphasis to social well being. That is why; both Islam and Christianity could survive or flourish under Capitalism or Socialism for they adhere to hard work, thrift, investment, social well being.

Islam and Christianity never advocate theft and looting or plundering, though the Israelites had committed theft, looting and plundering and devised formulas for sharing the loot, including women, especially virgins even to the priests and the God during the time of Moses as stipulated in the Chapter 31 of Numbers of the Old Testament. On the other, Consumerism is an ideology of harvesting without sawing and nurturing just like looting and plundering. It treats human being as mere irrational consuming animals without any concern for individual and social well-being.

‘Party Animal’ is a very popular word under Consumerism as it reduces men and women just like animals for consumption with animal behaviors besides treating them, especially women as consumable products to be bought though for a short period. The Corporate Culture with the powerful weapon of Consumerism aims for making the entire globe, ‘a very big animal farm’ with men, women and children.

Terrorism is a strategy of Consumerism to uproot the very foundation of Islam and Christianity besides Capitalism and Democracy. Unfortunately, Islam is the hardest hit and the greatest victim of Terrorism that aims at murdering Islam before the end of the twenty-first century. Unless Islam, contains the onslaught of Consumerism and Terrorism, they contain Islam for ever, a very big human tragedy.

Spirituality and Human Values

In the demise of spirituality and basic human values, religions turn towards rigorous and harsh customs, devotions, stereotype prayers and fasting, as a regimented drill, without any element of love, mercy and forgiveness. All these factors acted as catalysts for religious fundamentalism. A big vacuum in spirituality of religions paved the way for terrorism. The youth, especially the poor, are indoctrinated and getting believed that the greatest virtue is to become martyrs and to die and kill for their religions for they are rewarded with all the luxuries and pleasures of a ‘seven star hotel’ besides the service of seven virgins in the Paradise after their martyrdom. Sex, drugs and money are indiscriminately administered to them as the immediate rewards for their loyalty and commitment.

Islam and Christianity

Islam and Christianity, the two major world religions have miserably failed, in practice, to imbibe the basic moral, spiritual and ethical values to the humanity. After embracing the corporate culture, they have been rivaling each other in spreading across nations and adhering to the rigorous religious practices. Their champions or leaders have become as materialistic as the ancient Epicureans.

Because of their warring or quarreling factions and their quench for pomp and acquiring more and more material wealth, almost all religions miserably failed to lead the world in the realm of spirituality and to inculcate minimum ethical and human values to the society. Most of the sects or cults in Hinduism and Buddhism also assumed the role of big multinational corporations with assets in terms of trillions.

The Ideology of ‘the Chosen People’

Both Islam and Christianity claim that they are the chosen people of their God. The ideology of chosen people was originated at the time of Abraham and developed into violent and aggressive form during the time of Moses, after the Exodus, on the march of Israelites towards the ‘Promised Land of Canaan’. The Bible gives a detailed account of the kings or peoples who were looted, raped, captured or exterminated in their hands.

When a particular tribe or race or religion or party claims that it is chosen, it undermines other tribes or races or religions or parties and subscribes to the deadly ideology of superior race or tribe or religion or party that would become the basis of Fascism as had advocated by Adolph Hitler. Under Lenin, especially during the time of Stalin, ‘the Comrades’ or the card holders of the Communist Party claimed that they were the chosen ones and the superior people. It is a deadly ideology in which , others are branded inferior or even sub-human being so that they could hate or subjugate or exterminate them and thereby they could please their God or prove their loyalty towards their Party.

Christianity is a thousand kilometers away from Jesus who taught to make peace on earth and to love and forgive the enemies so as to become the children of the Loving Heavenly Father. Islam too is far away from Koran that taught to worship the Most Merciful Allah who demands every Muslim to give mercy and care not only to all human beings but to animals and even trees also.

Both Islam and Christianity, besides Communism, are corrupted with power, money and Consumerism besides the deadly ideology of ‘the chosen people’ with the right to punish or exterminate the disobedient or men without the ‘official version of the faith’ or men with alien faiths who are branded as ‘Pagans’ or ‘Kaferes’ as the communist are branding their enemies as ‘revisionists’ or ‘imperialists’ for extermination.

For the Just, Loving and Merciful God or Allah, all men are chosen and everybody has an equal right for a decent life just like the people of the OPEC or OECD countries and everybody must observe spiritual and ethical values. Nobody has any right to dominate or exterminate other people. If Islam and Christianity fail to bridge the gap between the rich and poor and to end discrimination between the Black and the White and upheld basic spiritual and human values, at least among their own followers, their very worth and relevance are questioned in the age of the Global Crisis and thereafter. This is the fundamental crisis of both Islam and Christianity, threatening their very existence.

Oil and Cars

Industrialization started with steam powered locomotives and nurtured by the automobile industry that speeded up the processes of urbanization and fast life style besides giving predominance to oil industry. Oil producers and automobile industry started to dictate the entire economies of the world, especially of the western industrialized economies. OPEC has squeezed oil importing nations by charging exorbitant price for oil and amassed the wealth of nations.

The corporate world has effectively employed Information Technology to have a virtual control over the entire globe by e-money, e-banking and e-commerce and spread the corporate culture of greed, fraud and consumerism. Oil, cars and consumerism, originally acted as the catalyst of boom have turned the catalysis of Doom or the Great Depression II. They have drained away the saving and investment habits of the middle class and made everybody debtors and upset not only the balance of economies but also of the Nature.

New Awareness

People are getting aware that for the wrong logistics of their places of stay, work, shopping and entertainment, they have to travel a lot and burn out a lot of oil unnecessarily. They could have avoided over 60 per cent of their journeys, especially in the age of advanced communication technologies. By a proper use and development of public transportation system, many could have avoided owning cars or traveling in cars. A good majority of business trips are unnecessary or unproductive. ‘Traveling less and less and consuming lesser and lesser oil for the recovery of the economy and for the health of the environment’ will emerge as a major slogan in almost all countries so as to affect the future of oil, automobile and hospitality sectors.



Natural Death

It is time for the Multinational Corporations to have a natural death for their crimes committed against the humanity, especially against the poor nations and peoples. Championing the cause of consumerism, they have even turned a malignant cancer of Capitalism and Globalization besides corrupting Islam and Christianity and other religions besides Communism. They destroyed the economic foundations of millions of families and virtually wiped out the middle class not only in the west but also in emerging economies with their aggressive marketing strategies.

Selling dreams and fantasies, they dragged everyone into illusions. They have invisible links with various terrorist organizations. They are involved in money laundry, corruptions and fabrication of documents and cheating the shareholders and the general public. For the high salary and bonus besides aggressive marketing and spending billions for sales promotions and thereby making big profits, they keep the cost post of production high and they push up of cost of living too. That is why; no popular government could dare to support or bail out them with tax payers’ money. Let them pay the price and face the wrath of the people.

The Stimulus Packages

It is fact that, none of the stimulus packages, though in terms of several trillions, could save the world from the impending peril and miseries of the millions unless the world saves itself from the dirty hands of consumerism and controls the growth of automobile industry besides reducing oil consumption to the extent of 30 to 40 per cent and turning towards spirituality and ethical values. This is the time for fair business practices and code of ethics for all economic activities besides regulating aggressive marketing and advertisements. Ensuring sustainable income along with reasonable saving and investment is the only means for recovery on a long term basis. Otherwise, all the stimulus packages and recovery efforts would vanish within three to six months after making some symptoms of recovery and then aggravate and prolong the crisis to the extent of ten years.

Recovery and Growth

The present global crisis taught the humanity the basic lesson that various socio-economic systems or organizations could not survive without the basic moral and ethical values and some element of spirituality and maintaining the balance of the Nature. It is high time in burying down Consumerism and Corporate Culture besides adopting slow and simple life styles and turning towards spirituality and setting right the imbalances between urban and rural sectors and also between agriculture, industry and service sectors and the different regions of the world for the very survival of humanity. Humanity could not afford to pay so much high salary and bonus in terms of several millions to the CEOs and Managers and to allow the traders and business people to make such a huge profit within a short span of time. Cost of production and cost of living must be put back at the minimum for sustainable development.

It is a great crime against Humanity and the Nature to burn out so much oil and generating so much heat and sound from the speeding millions of cars and driving away the millions from farms and rural life to the cities. It is high time to redefine the very meaning of development and urbanization especially when the entire humanity is under threat and peril. The fruits of development must be reached in the hands of all people, sparing none on any ground. Then only we could bring out a real recovery and attain sustainable growth.

(This is the seventh series of work on ‘The Great Depression II’ by the same author and prepared on 20th April 2009. The other works can be found if a search is made under “Dr. Raju M. Mathew’ using AltaVista or Google).

About the Author
Dr. Raju M. Mathew is an economist, a strategist and theoretician with strong background in Cybernetics, Education and Information Technology with long years of experience in teaching and research. He has so far supervised ten doctoral works, including the basic approaches of Hinduism, Buddhism, Christianity and Islam towards knowledge, economy and spirituality.
Dr. Mathew formulated two basic theories of knowledge consumption and knowledge production that got published in 1985 and appeared in several languages. Now these theories are known in his name and have become an area for doctoral research. In 2005, Prof. Mathew proposed Knowmatics and Knowledge Technology as the two Post-Information Technology disciplines for processing and handling knowledge so as to develop knowledge industries. He is the founder president of the International Forum for Knowmatics & Knowledge Technology (IFKT). Some of his works are available in the site: www.ifkt.net.
Dr. Mathew is on a mission of making the world aware of the impacts and intensities of the present Global Crisis, the Great Depression II of 2009 and persuading the governments and international agencies and religions to formulate correct strategies and policies and implement them urgently for an early recovery, so as to save the lives of millions, especially the young and the poor. Dr. Raju M. Mathew can be contacted by e-mail: rajoocyber@yahoo.com.

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