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Tuesday, August 25, 2009

Why Make an Issue of Kartika Sari’s Case?

In the first place, Kartika was charged in an open court, allowed to have legal representation and chose to admit to her crime. The punishment was given based on her confession, which explains why there was no appeal.

Second place, consumption of alcohol is a felony in Islamic shariah by agreement of all scholars, then and now. It's a felony and must be punished by the state.

The parent of Kartika Sari accepts the punishment to be carried out and Kartika herself has no objection to the punishment, although she has every right to appeal her punishment.

The issue is an issue that embarass Barisan Nasional, but BN is trying to offload the burden to PAS. In truth, the BN has to uphold the Shariah laws because it is the wishes of the Muslim majority. It is not a political issue.

As for lashing for women under shariah, although it is allowed, but the way lashing is carried out under shariah is miles apart compared to that off civil. For one, lashings under shariah DOES NOT HURT. It’s never meant to hurt. Just to shame and be an example to others not to commit the same crime.

Again let me repeat the phrase “IT DOES NOT HURT”. By every school of thoughts in Islam, lashings must never hurt. It’s not meant to be hurting. It’s meant for educating the masses.

I also deplore a statement made by Maria Chin representing JAG which says:

“Maria Chin Abdullah said "Kartika's case also illustrates how Muslim women are discriminated, contrary to the constitutional guarantee in Article 8(2) of the Federal Constitution, which is against discrimination on the grounds of religion and gender."
http://www.malaysiakini.com/news/111322

Maybe JAG should open their eyes and look at the case again. Kartika is punished not because she is a woman. Kartika is punished because she consumed alcohol. It has nothing to do with her gender because punishment of the same sort is also given out to men who is caught drinking liquor.

It’s a normal tactic by all feminists to invoke the call for discrimination each time they are going against religion. You should ask the Christians in America and how the Christians have been painted in the wrong color by the Feminists in America for decades.

So, I never care about what feminists like JAG thinks. They will almost always reject such ruling because they are anti religion to start off with.

They quote Articles in the Federal Constitution that they like while completely missing out the Article in the Federal Constitution that states the religion of the Federation is Islam. They interpret what they like and promote their interpretation. They don’t speak on behalf of the constitution.

Although SIS is very ineffective in Malaysia among Muslims due to the fact that SIS themselves are unable to present any hard evidence proving the Syariah courts as being discriminatory to women.

Thus far, we have seen zero evidence from JAG or SIS pertaining to the defectiveness of Malaysia’s various Syariah courts.

Tulang Besi

48 comments:

Anonymous said...

If Kartika yes its okay then it should be okay to all. No one shoold make a hu ha about it and let let go.

zakwan said...

If Kartika's a male,will SIS n JAG come forward n defend her/him?
Isn't that gender discrimination

What's all the fuss?
She expressed remorse 4 her wrongdoing n requested 2 be punished 2 set an example 2 other aspiring young women such as herself so that they will not repeat the mistake she made

Then again,y am I commenting n become all concerned?
I'm not a woman who drinks alcohol

Wong Ka Wai said...

Many people make comparison between rapist that get lashing with Kartika drank beer and get lashing penalty.

So for everyone that does not know Islamic law will think it is not a fair case.

Kartika as a muslim must know this Islamic law and she doesn't complain about it.

In this case I believe there is no discrimination at all.

If you are muslim, you must accept Islamic laws and Islamic principles as total package.

May this case be served as example for all muslim in Malaysia.

P/S: Penan children are starving. For donation information see here http://harismibrahim.wordpress.com/2009/08/24/how-many-anak-bangsa-malaysia-must-die-before-you-are-moved/

open online shop with RM100

muhammad said...

TB,

Why halt the punishment just because it's Ramadhan?

I suspect some quarters are seeking political gain from this.

Wait for comments from SIS and the like, and then theyr're just itching for comments from PAS leaders to be (mis)used.

Typical BN.

muhammad said...

And they might even entice Kartika to withdraw her confession or willingness to be punished the Shariah way.

Nothing is really surprising when it comes to how far Bn would go.

Nick Chan Abdullah said...

tulang besi, these kind of times are already predicted in the Hadeeth (if im not mistaken).

Muslims will become more and more liberal. Feminists will cause destruction to the religion

It will become worse, unfortunately, But this is indeed the sign of armageddon.

Serious Shepherd said...

Still waiting for response from the likes of 'beruk2 di jalanraya' who protested against sales of liquor in Selangor. And guess what? There is such response, not from the 'beruks' but from their Big Boss.

Kartika can still appeal, says PM


PUTRAJAYA: Model Kartika Sari Dewi Shukarno can still appeal against the Pahang Syariah Court decision to cane her for consuming alcohol, said Prime Minister Datuk Seri Najib Tun Razak.

Read more here.

So much for 'gender equality' in all sectors but not when receiving punishment for crime.

Anonymous said...

I salute the courage of Ms. Kartika Sari Dewi Shukarno to face the law not like the cowards of UMNO (and some in PAS and the royalty) who made the law but enjoy "immunity" from the law.

I am not against implementation of Syariah Law for Muslim.
Look at Iran, Saudia Arabia, Sudan, Pakistan, Bangladesh etc, with their superp implementation of Syariah Law, these countries enjoy admiration of the world and their people have one of the most advance living standard in terms of education, health care, corruption etc.

Anonymous said...

August 25, 2009 2:52 PM
Blogger Nick Chan Abdullah said...

tulang besi, these kind of times are already predicted in the Hadeeth (if im not mistaken).
.

Agreed. THis is the signs of End of Days

Anonymous said...

Waiting for PAS to implement hudud law!

Can't wait for the daily international headlines...

Ninja Turtles said...

Despite Malaysia being an ISLAMIC country but I reckoned Malaysia should STOP practising HARDCORE & EXTREME ISLAMIC LAWS.

Unless Malaysia intends be governed like Afghanistan & Saudi Arabia whereby Muslims are forced to cover themselves up like NINJA, foreign investors will be very afraid to invest in Malaysia.

Relax those crazy rules, will ya???

Anonymous said...

Islam is suppose to be about justice.In Kartika's case question now, is justice being served?

The incident where Caliph Omar meted 40 lashed to this drunk person is about him slandering people while drunk.

When in doubt, go back to the source, the Quran. There is nowhere written in the Quran that one ought to be beaten by being drunk.It does mention that you should not approach salat when drunk.

The Quran does warn about following the 'imam' or 'ulamas'

So the question again. "Is justice being served?"

Bigbutt Sally said...

Kartika is a struggling model who lives in highly competitive Singapore. She is already front page news now. She WANTS to be caned, publicly for impact. That will make her world news. Paid interviews may follow, a documentary, even a hollywood flick. Not bad for a part time model from Sungei Siput.

amoker said...

hemm.. i agree with the writer.

secondly, Malaysia is by contitution a secular nation. Islam is the national religion and lets not mix the bags together.

Anonymous said...

If Kartika requests for a public canning, why not. This will be a good deterrent for others in the future.

1. Also it is unfair to allow Muslims to work in restaurants, bars , hotels and pubs where liqour is served. Maybe the syariah laws should be amended to bar all Muslims from working in such establishments.

2. Ultimately, Malaysia Airlines should stop serving alcohol on board. It is a shame that an airline from a Islamic nation is still serving alcohol. At least Saudi And Iran Airlines have the guts not to serve alcohol on board.

3. Muslims should also be barred from working at Carlsberg and Guinness.

Samuel Goh Kim Eng said...

NO MORE CHEERS FOR SOME

What a storm in the teacup
Making all wonder "What's up?"
When some will find no cheer
Drinking from any bottle of beer

(C) Samuel Goh Kim Eng - 260809
http://MotivationInMotion.blogspot.com
Wed. 26th Aug. 2009.

Ren Water said...

It's too bad the punishment did not materialise. It would have been entertaining for the muslims.

It's always fun to watch public execution in Islamic countries. The stoning, beheading and lashing.

Allahu akhar !!!! The crowd would cheer. So much more fun compared to infidels - they only attend concerts.

Anonymous said...

It's too bad the punishment did not materialise. It would have been entertaining for the muslims.

It's always fun to watch public execution in Islamic countries. The stoning, beheading and lashing.

Allahu akhar !!!! The crowd would cheer. So much more fun compared to infidels - they only attend concerts.

Ren Water said...

Hi, My account is named as "Ren Water" and I would like to state that I did not post any comment in this blogpost earlier.

The computer that was being used my me was shared and I believed that someone else has used my user ID to post the earlier comment.

Since the comment was not "nice", I would like to state clearly that I am not the person. I personally do not share the person's opinion.

Anonymous said...

As usual, Muslims like you, especaially males, are from the Dark Age! So sickening; what kind of religion and Sahrai/Islamic law is this, that only knows how to punish and punish believers, for something which is so personal between that person and God?! Muslims like you should live in the caves of Afghanistan and Saudi Arabia! Thank Christ, he saved me from such Dark Age religion!

Katharina Sri (former: Noor Aza)
Germany

muhammad said...

The moment Najib started commenting, my suspicions were confirmed: BN DEFINITELY wants something to gain from this issue.

Wong Ka Wai,

Kartika as a muslim must know this Islamic law and she doesn't complain about it.

In this case I believe there is no discrimination at all.

If you are muslim, you must accept Islamic laws and Islamic principles as total package.


Agreed 100%.


Katharina,

If you'd stop bashing Islam in every opportunity you get and cease using exclamation marks at the end of verey sentence, you might not be such a waste of web space.

The Quran is not the only source of law in Islam.

I admire and salute Kartika for her willingness to admit her mistake and for taking reponsibility for it. That's more than I can say for BN leaders.

chot said...

agenda 1 malaysia,
takot kepada perlaksanaan undang yang mirip ke arah hudud.

hisham kata tukang sebat tader...najib cakap bleh buat rayuaan

lu pikirlah sendiri...

Tulang Besi said...

Blogger Ren Water said...

It's too bad the punishment did not materialise. It would have been entertaining for the muslims.

It's always fun to watch public execution in Islamic countries. The stoning, beheading and lashing.
.

That's why Islamic countries don't have to spend so much on jails and rehabilitation costs.

Unlike the people in the West where they love to feed and house criminals so that they can come out again and terrorize innocent people.

The more they terrorize people, the more they get fed and housed.

Tulang Besi said...

secondly, Malaysia is by contitution a secular nation. Islam is the national religion and lets not mix the bags together..

I may not agree on this point with Amoker.

I do not think that our constitution is secular simply because no secular constitution would have an official religion.

In fact the term used is the "religion of the federation".

So, that's very clear that Malaysia is not a secular country, neither it is an Islamic country.

Anonymous said...

I think Kartika is a really clever girl. She has received free international publicity (never bad for a model) and managed to make the Muslim establishment in Malaysia (both BN & PR) look really stupid in the eyes of the world, while all the while giving no cause for offence - since she continues to accept her punishment; in fact she insists on being punished.
That this fact has not yet dawned on many Muslims in this country is obvious from the comments in this blog, and from the article by the blogger himself (though I actually like him quite a lot).

Azrul Mohd Khalib said...

Assalamualaikum

Dear TB, just wanted to give my opinon on your blog piece pertaining to this issue.

The facts are as such:

Kartika was charged for her misdemeanour and admitted that she was guilty of consuming alcohol which is against Malaysian Syariah law. Under this law governing the conduct of Muslims in Malaysia, she is fined RM 5000 and sentenced to six strokes of the rotan (in the manner in which it is administered under Syariah law).

My points:

We should all respect and recognise Kartika for her courage and determination to have the sentence of whipping carried out regardless of the surrounding controversy. We should also recognise that she has admitted to doing something wrong and is willing to face the consequences of her actions. This is something many of us here would have trouble doing. I agree with you, TB, that this is not, never was and should not be made into a political issue. However, I do disagree with you on the issue of whipping/ flogging/ canning/ lashing. Whipping, in my opinion, is unacceptable whether it is the Penal Code or under the Syariah law regardless of whether they are men or women. Yes, whipping as conducted under syariah prescription is theoretically much milder compared to how it is administered under the Penal system. However, there is enough precedence and examples of how whipping is administered under the syariah sistem in many different Muslim countries to enable me deny you your statements that "lashings under syariah DOES NOT HURT. It's never meant to hurt...BY every school of though in Islam, lashings must never hurt." I beg to differ on that. Evidence? See the following incidents which were all in Muslim countries:

- http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gxbRcqmdtTk (The King had to "pardon" her for her crime of being raped and sentenced to being whipped 200 lashes and prison time)

- http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u55M7cdHQQ4

- http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gxbRcqmdtTk

Yes, I recognise that whipping is also meant to shame and educate the masses as you say. And yes, maybe the way whipping or lashing is actually done in Malaysia is different (done with a bamboo rod) compared to countries like Iran and Saudi Arabia which may use actual whips. However, whipping whether it "hurts" or not, has never been proven to be an effective deterent for future crimes or misdemeanors, particularly if they deal with morality. Ask those countries which I mentioned. They whip numerous persons for different crimes each year. What whipping/ flogging/ canning/ lashing has proven to be is to be a form of torture. This sort of punishment and other forms of corporal punishment have failed as retributory and deterrent sentences as well as being cruel, inhumane, degrading and humiliating. It may have worked in the past but what we must recognise and acknowledge is that it doesn't work in these times. We shouldn't continue living in the past.

(continued)

Azrul Mohd Khalib said...

(continued from previous comment)

Also, let's not be blind to the fact and be honest with ourselves that when it comes to "crimes of morality" very often, women are the target of any crackdown or enforcement of morality laws, particularly when it comes to "immoral behaviour" which can extend from not wearing a tudung to being in close proximity with a person of the opposite sex who is not your spouse to yes, drinking beer. Consider these examples:

- In Iran, according to Article 102 of their constitution, “Women who appear on the streets and in public without the prescribed ‘Islamic Hijab’ will be condemned to 74 strokes of the lash”. Participating in mixed-gender parties and walking alone with a non-familial member of the opposite sex are also cause for punishment by lashing.

- In Saudi Arabia, women appearing in public without a male guardian can be whipped.

- In the Aceh province of Indonesia, men and women out in public together and women violating the dress code can also be whipped.

So when sisters and brothers from groups like JAG and Sisters in Islam express concern that this sort of sentencing is biased to women, it is not without reason. Our advocates of the Malaysian syariah system have never been shy to take inspiration from the abovementioned countries and we could very well be taking the first steps down a path which takes us away from becoming better Muslims. We should live Islam and not just try to show we practice it by victimising women. As such, just because it is law doesn't mean that the law is right and infallible. Laws can be amended to reflect our better understanding and maturity.

Also, let me also make this clear. Based on her misdemeanour of drinking alcohol, Kartika is not a criminal. She didn't hurt anyone, kill or rape anyone, sell drugs, steal money from others. She should not be treated in the same manner as if she was a criminal. It is her personal behaviour for which she will be judged by Allah one day in the hereafter. Who are we to be so vindictive and judgemental? This display of vindictiveness and eagerness to punish does a disservice to Islam and its jurisprudence which has always stressed on gender equality, dignity, justice, compassion, forgiveness and mercy.

Finally, whipping is also a serious violation of International Human Rights Law. Whipping violates the Universal Declaration of Human Rights (1948), the International Convention of Civil and Political Rights (1966), and the United Nations Convention against Torture and Other Cruel, Inhuman or Degrading Treatment or Punishment (1984). Sure, we may say that these are the instruments of the West, feminists, and liberals and that we shouldn't follow them. But we should all ask ourselves these questions: Does condoning the whipping of another Muslim woman or man make us a better person? Are we better Muslims because of it? Or do we lose our a bit of compassion and humanity with each stroke of the rotan?

The terms, whipping, flogging, canning, lashing, have now become part of the reference to Malaysia and I am not sure that it is the way I want to remember this year's Ramadhan and Independence Day.


Regards,

Azrul Mohd Khalib

Anonymous said...

Yes why make a issue out of Kartika? why make an isuue out of driniking beer at all???
Was she drunk? did she hurt anyone? was she abusive? at the time when she was arrested? If all the above is NO, then why such a harsh and primitive sentence? This is 21st century, the Judge has a CHOICE, you can fine her or jail her, why the canning?

Anonymous said...

why postpone the punishment just because its Ramadan?Ramadan is suppose to be the holiest month for purification.carry on with the whipping , chop off her hands maybe behead her too. Allah will be merciful to her soul.Look at all the advance islamic countries like Iran, Iraq Afgan Sudan etc. They are the fashion capital of the world creating burkas that is the 'in' thing this season.they even made humans that explode, they even created hell on earth. How is Malaysia going to develope without learning from them

Anonymous said...

I don't know la what is up with you Muslims. If she wants to be whip, then go ahead. All of a sudden the jokers say she cannot be whip because it's Ramadan. Hello? When you give out the date for the punishment you never check the calender? Then suddenly another reason crops up. She cannot be whip because there is no expert to do that! Haiyo...seems to me after reading all the comments posted on different blogs, a lot of Muslims out there are quite 'arif' on how it should be done. Get one of those fellas la who seems so knowledgeable on how to cane to carry it out la. Get a volunteer. By the way, since nobody knows how to do it properly, in the real world this is what we do to solve a problem that requires manpower. 1. Get the right candidate to do the job. 2. If nobody know how the job is done, then import talent la. 3. Do it the Nike way. Just do it. Got instruction wat. Like anybody is going to know if it is rightly done or wrongly done when everybody seems clueless.
I say get it done and over with and stop giving those CNN and BBC bastards more ammunition to smear Malaysia and Islam.
And another note, how come the Judge mete out this sort of punishment but our prison cannot accommodate the punishment? The Judge didn't check first is it? Bagi tahu hukuman dulu baru check boleh buat tak? Haiyo...

Wong Ka Wai said...

According to TheMalaysianInsider article (http://www.themalaysianinsider.com/index.php/malaysia/36077-kartikas-legacy-to-malaysia)

there is no Quran or Hadith penalty for consuming pork, there is also none for alcohol consumption

Can someone tell me why this man-made-law not follows the Quran or Hadith?

Will this law to be amended because the Quran and Hadith are silent on its punishment?

I'm non-muslim that wish to learn more about my muslim friends religion

open online shop with RM100

zali said...

sabar.

sampai masa sebat...sebat la.
ni kan bulan ramadan nih...

cilok komen dari pemuda pas kemahang 1 di era pasca :

Hukuman sebatan dalam Islam (sebatan kes syariah) bukanlah macam hukuman sebat bagi pesalah kes rogol, dadah dan sebagainya.

Dalam kes-kes yang melibatkan kes kesalahan syariah, cara sebatan adalah tukang sebat tidak boleh mengangkat tangan sampai membuka ketiak. Dengan kata lain, ketiak hendaklah dikepit semasa mejalankan sebatan. Dengan ketiak terkepit sedemikian rupa, sakitnya bukan sehebat kena sebat kes rogol.

Kalau kita tengok kes dadah dan rogol, pesalah yang kena sebat boleh pengsan, tertanggal isi ponggong, tetapi hukuman Islam bukan macam tu.

Ada caranya, so kepada yg tak tau jangan nak memandai. Beri kepada yang berhak buat kerja.

Tulang Besi said...

vthere is no Quran or Hadith penalty for consuming pork, there is also none for alcohol consumption

Can someone tell me why this man-made-law not follows the Quran or Hadith?>
.

I am pretty sure the punishment for intoxocants consumption is derived from As sunnah and Al Ijma'.

Tulang Besi said...

A very good article proving that lashing is from sunnah can be read here:

http://www.zaharuddin.net/content/view/869/72/

Anonymous said...

Muslims enjoy seeing the suffering of others.

There must be a sense of joy amongst the muslim clerics to be so motivated to go after the weak.

The Quran is filled with hate verses. All kinds of wild imaginations on torture and punishments.

It's more about fear than love.

More about submission than willingness.

More about punishment than counsel.

Anonymous said...

Did Prophet Muhammad lash people who broke laws?

Anonymous said...

The semitic element is still strong in Islam,when in actual fact Islam is universal,far beyond the grasp of humanity,because it's demands are tremendous.Who dares to sacrife fully,wholly ,totaly to the supreme?The Prophet brought the revelations to awaken humanity towards the supreme,but man ruled by monstrous ego,like to play hide and seek with the Supreme,forever believing in 1/2 truths,and not daring enough to explore the realities of life and beyond.

Anonymous said...

"BN is trying to offload the burden to PAS"
Agree.The timing of that Lunas k0te keraih asseblyman's defection,plus kartika case suggests BN sengaja did it to embarass PAS and Pakatan and win in Permanatng Pasir,but malangnya semua dah back fire,BIGTIME!!

Anonymous said...

One reason why "Islamic nations" and "muslim majority" nations are considered to be backwards in all aspects related to humanity is that muslims are more engrossed in petty issues like who is sleeping with who and who drank liquer.

achok said...

can you imagine when Chinese or Indian prevented by government to practice their own culture????

I can expect that they will organizing rally demo everyday...

that's also same when malays prevent to practice thei religion law...

Tulang Besi said...

Anonymous Anonymous said...

One reason why "Islamic nations" and "muslim majority" nations are considered to be backwards in all aspects related to humanity is that muslims are more engrossed in petty issues like who is sleeping with who and who drank liquer.
.

Actually no. Muslims are backwards because we are ruled by our various secular elites who sucks the blood out of Muslims and use the Muslim's wealth for their own benefit and comfort.

The statement above has never been substantiated.

What's wrong with controlling alcoholism and fornication?

Isn't that good for the family institution?

Tulang Besi said...

Anonymous Anonymous said...

Did Prophet Muhammad lash people who broke laws?
.

Yes he did

Anonymous said...

Making a statement?
Why don't we get some high profile Ministers, their children and cronies caned for consuming alcohol. Or...as usual they will turn a blind eye...ooops!!! They are protected. Laws don't apply to them.

Anonymous said...

Aramai Ti!!!
Lets discuss this over a few sets of ice-cold beer.
Pomusas??? Hinava & vogok trajun. anything can be settled...no need to panic. Life still goes on.
All we got to do is to get out of the dark ages. Implement laws that fit the situation. Use the Holy book as a guideline...don't literally take it word by word and use your own interpretation. 21st century mah!!!

Sad onlooker said...

If such canings don't hurt, why do them? being in court, fined the maximum, exposed to (Muslim) disapproval is shaming enough. A caning should be used only when the offence merits it - violence, drugs, gross abuse of trust etc - but should not be as vicious as carried out under civil law in Malaysia and Singapore. Drinking beer does not count as that kind of offence. The photographic evidence is that SHARIA caning is not merely symbolic and does hurt. If the woman sits for her caning, there is the added risk unless she is padded that the kidneys will be damaged. Simple fact is this - If caning is wrong for women, it is also wrong for men. Cane those who deserve it, of either gender, with the severity of an old-fashioned school caning, ie not to break skin and leave permanent scars, but don;'t make a mockery of a wonderful religion by imposing it for trivial misdemeanors.
Malaysia has lost opit heavily over Kartika. She comes across as brave and dignified but the country comes across as cowardly, brutal and backward. I am glad she almost certainly won't be beaten but salute her for refusing to play along with officials attempts to get her to get them off the hook.

Anonymous said...

//Anonymous Anonymous said...

Did Prophet Muhammad lash people who broke laws?.

Yes he did//

Now this is a surprise.Prophet Muhammad,who freed slaves,who showed compassion on every living beings and animals,who participated in battles only after getting the command from the SUPREME,did whip law breakers..umm?Can you kindly give more details on this..

Tulang Besi said...



Now this is a surprise.Prophet Muhammad,who freed slaves,who showed compassion on every living beings and animals,who participated in battles only after getting the command from the SUPREME,did whip law breakers..umm?Can you kindly give more details on this..
.

Prophet Mohd didn't ask them to drink, did he?

Anyways, lashing drinkers IS a sign of compassion.

Anonymous said...

stupid religion controlled by stupid people

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