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Saturday, September 19, 2009

Sisters in Islam Should Mind Their Own Business

It is reported that Sisters in Islam (SIS) is planning to appeal the Kartika Sari sentence. This is despite Katika’s own plea for her to be left alone. Kartika herself is willing to go through her punishment and had refused to appeal. Why is SIS acting like a busybody and sticking their nose where it’s not needed?(“Kartika: Leave me alone, I'll face the music”)

For an organization who advocates equality among men and women in Islam, their action to file for appeal on the Kartika Sari sentence is nothing less than an act of hypocrisy. The right stand that SIS should adopt to to commend the Pahang Shariah court for prescribing the same type of punishment to women as they would men.
Also, I wonder if SIS finds the whipping punishment prescribed by the civil courts in our country to be more “humane” compared to that of the Shariah courts. For one, the whipping in Shariah court is not meant to physically hurt. That cannot be said about lashings under civil laws.

In other words, SIS will tolerate punishment that is more inhumane simply because it is prescribed by a secular court. It’s really the true ideology of Sisters in Islam, secularism. If they’re really interested in fighting for humanity, they should then protest the lashings methods used by the civil laws. That would make more sense and consistent.

In truth, SIS is a secular organization, anti to patriarchy, and by extension, anti to Islam. They dislike the Kartika Sari sentence because it is prescribed by a Shariah court. If it came from a secular court, SIS will not even make a noise.

Thus far, all of the issues raised by SIS is irrelevant and weak. None of their case against the Shariah courts and shariah law is substantive. All their attacks against Islam and Islamic jurisprudence is nothing more than their own ill feelings towards Islamic law and thus far has provided zero evidence that the Shariah law is discriminatory to women. In short, we have yet to see one proof from SIS showing the Shariah system to be unfair.

The good news is majority of Muslims in Malaysia, men and women alike, rejects SIS. They see SIS as nothing more than a loud mouth organization bent on imposing secularism on the Muslims and fighting to their ideology rather than the welfare and benefits of Muslim women in Malaysia.

For example, if SIS was really interested in the welfare of Muslim women, they should instead fight for the rights of Muslim women to work part-time as practiced in the Netherlands. (Refer to my last article entitled "Women in Netherlands Prove Feminism Wrong")

They’d be better of pursuing this type of policy change as compared to trying to shut down the entire Shariah court system in Malaysia. Their current course is just a waste of time as it is based on nothing more than lies and fictitious ideology.

SIS is a waste of oxygen for all Malaysians as their existence serves no purpose to the Malaysian public. Their like our tonsils. They should be removed fast if we want to have a healthier life in the future.

In conclusion, SIS’s latest move to appeal the Kartika Sari’s sentence is hypocritical, inconsistent to their ideology, waste of time and money and not to mention disrespectful to the wishes of Kartika Sari herself.

My advise to SIS is to start looking into their own ideology rather than being a busybody and sticking their noses where they are not needed.

Tulang Besi

72 comments:

ben nasr said...

Dear TB,

You said-->
Also, I wonder if SIS finds the whipping punishment prescribed by the civil courts in our country to be more “humane” compared to that of the Shariah courts. For one, the whipping in Shariah court is not meant to physically hurt. That cannot be said about lashings under civil laws.

-->
I think women are not subjected to whipping under malaysian civil law. So your comparison is a bit off. Whipping of women under Shariah Criminal Offences legislation contradicts civil law where women are not punishable by caning under Section 289 of the Criminal Procedure Code.

Tulang Besi said...

I think women are not subjected to whipping under malaysian civil law. So your comparison is a bit off. Whipping of women under Shariah Criminal Offences legislation contradicts civil law where women are not punishable by caning under Section 289 of the Criminal Procedure Code..

not really. SIS should make it their point to either abolish civil law caning or apply canning to both men and women

Old Fart said...

Obviously you can't see the game that is being played....Nevermind, small minds!!

Tulang Besi said...

Blogger Old Fart said...

Obviously you can't see the game that is being played....Nevermind, small minds!!
.
Obviously, you're still in denial of the fact that you've been outplayed in your own game.

it takes one to know one.

Anonymous said...

Tulang Besi

Perhaps you should read this one by the small bird:

http://barkingmagpie.blogspot.com/2009/09/dont-cane-kartika-sari-reality.html

Why is the bird interfering?
You want to tell him off too?

PARAMESWARA

PEMUDA UMNO said...

"TULANG KARAT Should Mind Their Own Business"

Anak Perelih said...

SIS voice is loud because it gets support from UMNO... especially from UMNO president's daughters = Marina Mahathir, Hani Hussin Onn, Nori Abdullah Badawi... but not sure about Najib's daughters yet...

And Sisters in Islam did not use SII.. but SIS.. this means maybe their true name should be Sisters In Secularism...

Anonymous said...

What can SIS do?And why should PAS or anybody else be afraid of SIS?Is PAS afaid of being labelled "Fred Flinstones"?Tak payah risau..Allah laws which governs the atoms,the dauns,humans,plants is permenant,but those permenant laws evolves or widens on earth..for example mamalia human kicks start as "berudu",and we grow,change our physical appearnces right upto disembahyangkan,but all the time,there is a permenant governing principle within us,that control,dictates us,and everything else..likewise,dulu we naik kereta lembu,today,we naik kereto..dulu pakai lembing,keris..hari ni AK47 etc etc..laws too need be explored n evolve in accordance with time's spirit..

Anonymous said...

Some 750,000 paedophiles prowling Internet: UN
(AFP) – 4 days ago

GENEVA — Some 750,000 sexual predators are constantly prowling the Internet in a bid to gain contact with children, a United Nations report warned on Wednesday.

"The number of sites devoted to child pornography worldwide is growing. The number of predators connected to the Internet at any one time is estimated to be 750,000," said Najat Maala, Special Rapporteur on the child prostitution and child pornography issue.

Unicef also estimates there are more than four million websites featuring minors, including those of children aged under two years.

More than 200 new images are also circulated daily, according to Maala, who pointed out the production and distribution of child pornographic images rakes in between 3 and 20 billion dollars (2.04 and 13.62 billion euros) a year.

"Images of sexually exploited children are not only growing in number but are also increasingly shocking," added Maala, who estimates that between 10,000 and 100,000 minors are victims of the child pornography network.

She noted that the age of sexual consent should not be used as an excuse for child pornographic peddlers -- as it is used in places where this age limit is lower than the definition of who constitutes a minor.

This is because a "child under 18 cannot be considered to be able to consent to sexual exploitation, including child pornography," she added.

Copyright © 2009 AFP. All rights reserved. More »
http://www.google.com/hostednews/afp/article/ALeqM5iDqsQHG0T9Tk5YVaXCsiBk2pxbpQ

Anonymous said...

What has SIS done to combat human trafficking,prostitution?In Malaysia,semua pandai berbuih,buih,but very little action is taken to combat,or to tackle the causes of all sorts of problems..modernism,animal capitalsim,the widening gap between the rich and poor, and we r constantly at the mercy of capitalist economic cycles and capitalist bullies..all this things need to be tackled,and it will probably take generations..but signs r we need to tackle them now..

Anonymous said...

I think any intelligent and educated person would find this judgement to be unacceptable. How can you people possibly imagine that a 1400 year old law could be implemented in 2009 without any criticism? Syariah law is outdated and has no place in the modern world because it is inflexible, intolerant and completely at odds with the 21st century way of life.

Commonlaw which is practised today in the UK and in former British colonies has evolved and changed over the years to suit the modern need. Syariah law is primitive barbaric law which cannot be allowed to exist without violent opposition from those who are able to do so.

Anonymous said...

Saya pun jadi bingung. Sebenarnya apakah yang diperjuangkan oleh so call Sisters in Islam? They should mind their own business! Stop poking their nose in muslims business.

They are not muslims. So why should they bother!

Anonymous said...

Sahabat Kanan,

Assalamualaikum Tulang Besi,

I agree with you regarding to SIS and I also agree with Dewan Ulamak PAS.

Mereka ini menafsirkan al Quran mengikut tafsiran sendiri dan mengambil dan menolak sebahagian hadith yang lain.

Mereka nampaknya ingin memaksa pandangan mereka terhadap hukum2 syariah.

Yg hairannya, kenapakah hanya hukum syariah yang menjadi sasaran?

Sesiapa yang sayangkan Islam tidak mengira parti (Tulang besi tahu stand saya) mesti berada di satu saf.

Insha Allah, dalam hal SIS saya bersama Tulang Besi.

Tulang Besi said...

v
Commonlaw which is practised today in the UK and in former British colonies has evolved and changed over the years to suit the modern need. Syariah law is primitive barbaric law which cannot be allowed to exist without violent opposition from those who are able to do so.
.

Shariah law is primitive and barbaric? How is that so?

Because Shariah law doesn't recognize practices from the days of Pagans i.e. infanticide (abortion), intoxication, adultery, fornication etc?
These are all pagan practices and Shariah law is being modern to be in dispute with such practices.

Anonymous said...

Dalam isu ini, walaupun saya berbeza fahaman politik dgn Tulang Besi, saya menyokong TB menghentam SIS yang memperjuangkan FAKE ISLAM werwadahkan fahaman barat. Mereka ini nama macam ISLAM tapi tidak. Mereka menolak HUKUM yang jelas termaktub di dalam kitab suci Al-QURAN.. mereka yang menolak jelas kufur.

petola_rebus67 said...

other than rubbish arguments which were more emotional than factual,nothng much to comment about SIS.

The were just a bunch of haywired minded socalled "muslim women" who dont believe in Islam and its teachings.They opposed everything under Islamic labels.Remove the labels,they will support it..

farizzet said...

please read this extra info before all of you uttering nonsense. --> http://thestaronline.com/news/story.asp?file=/2009/9/16/nation/4722911&sec=nation

here are snippet of the article
"...The next case involved three people, including Kartika, 32. She was sentenced to six strokes of the cane and fined RM5,000 for drinking beer in a Cherating nightclub on July 11, last year. The court handed down the ruling after Kartika pleaded guilty to the charge on July 20.

The other two people involved were a waitress who was arrested with Kartika, and a man caught during a raid by the religious vice squad in the nightclub...."

so SIS MUST appeal for 'kartika's friends' too.

Anonymous said...

who cares. people in SIS might drink beer too

Anonymous said...

Boy, what women-hating Islamist you are! Typical of Dark Age primitive and violent Arabic-aping Islamists! Excuse me; why don't brutal-lover Islamist men like you leave ordinary Muslims alone, male and female, in their private lives! What they do in their private lives is personal between God and them - so you leave them alone! Islamists like you think you're God; that you have such right to punish personal behaviour! Pathetic, that supposedly and intelectual Islamist like you, can speak this way and not wanting to debate intelligently with SIS, instead of condemning them with so much hatred! Further, since you're part of PAS strongmen, this is what PAS is all about -twisted tongue, and Arabic women/girls/gays hating hypocrites! (I remember the smiling non-remorseful Malay-Muslim bus driver who raped and murdered so savagely the veil-wearing Malay graduate, had a few wives and all were wearing the veil!) I wonder if you hate our species so much, why the hell do you want to take four wives! Such insane and savage greed and sexual lust -and then dare to use God and Islam to justify it!

Katharina Sri (former: Noor Aza)
Germany

Anonymous said...

TB,
Please be humane ! What if its your daughter who is going to be lashed?Did you know or spoken to the girl why is she accepting the lashes?She is difinitely confused to be guilty and now accepting an unjust punishment.Hey ! TB we move on and face the reality that we are in a CIVILISED world.God has more COMPASSION than you guys who preached piety !Anyway SIS is doing hell of a good job.

Anonymous said...

TB,
Please be humane ! What if its your daughter who is going to be lashed?Did you know or spoken to the girl why is she accepting the lashes?She is difinitely confused to be guilty and now accepting an unjust punishment.Hey ! TB we move on and face the reality that we are in a CIVILISED world.God has more COMPASSION than you guys who preached piety !Anyway SIS is doing hell of a good job.

buyung said...

Emmmmmmm.... tak mau komem le. Kerja bodoh!!!!.

Anonymous said...

Alamak,
Still on this issue.
Saudara TB, before you make blanket comments on SIS, did you really do your research and find out about their work, and most importantly, their actual concern on this (Kartika) case?
I bet you didn't.
The essence of their concern is:
- it is against Malaysia law (and hence the spirit of our constitution) to whip a female. period.

I can't comprehend the mentality of my fellow muslims in opposing anything (or anyone) who doesn't agree with the actions of certain muslim, or anything that has been labeled "Syariah".

We have the gift of brain n intelligence to think and analyse.
- between Islam and muslims
- between right n wrong (regardless of who is doing it)
- between just and unjust (again regardless of who is doing it)

Instead of harping on this issue, if you are indeed a fighter for fairness and justice (naturally as a good muslim), may I suggest you lend a helping hand to the Penan people who are suffering from being thrown out from their home, suffering frm starvation, raped and abused by capatalists ...
I can see that you have lots of supporters on your blog, use your influence to right those grossly wrongful acts on the Penan.

Or because they are non-muslims, its not your interest to help them.

Oh Merciful GOD.

Anonymous said...

haha pemikiran barat yang jahil... hudud dianggap ketinggalan zaman tetapi berzina, free sex, abortion dianggap modern?????? come on bro, hudud tidak menghukum orang tidak salah... orang yang salah saja takut akan hudud.

kartika rela hati menerima hukuman syariah yang jauh lebih ringan dari hukuman civil...


hanya orang tolol dan buta syariah saja macam SIS yang membantah. I'm not sure if SIS do 5 times prayers a day... coz those who did prayer will obey Allah and Al-Quran

And I feel weird too see non-muslim complaint about hudud but at same time they dint know what hudud is... it just like they know all... I'm laughing alone when read what they complaint about

Smoking Gun said...

TB,
I'm not going to comment on your vitriolic attack on SIS. I reckon you're entitled to your opinion. But why don't you rationally point out how and why they're wrong instead of name-calling. And if you disagree on this matter, does it make them wrong on ALL points of injustice against women that they've raised in the past? If so, show us how.

Perhaps it's none of my business either but allow me to point out the following:

Kartika is a first-time offender, clearly repentant and has already been fined a whopping RM5000. Would a little clemency go amiss here?
She's the first woman to be sentenced to caning in this country, hence the unusual level of interest. It's not some anti-syariah conspiracy.
Whatever the differences between civil and syariah caning, the world only hears 'Caning of women = Taliban state'. It's a slippery slope and a country as dependent on foreign investment as Malaysia cannot afford to become an international pariah. When that happens and all Malaysians are living hand to mouth, it'll be cold comfort that we stood our ground and caned women because some people thought God would be pleased!

Sure you'll say religion trumps all other considerations. But consider that among the billion plus Muslims in the world, there are probably a thousand different ways this would have been handled. Are you so sure that all the other 999 ways wrong?

Here's a radical idea - why don't some pious Muslims like yourself lead the way in suggesting the caning sentence be replaced with some hours of community service on the grounds that:

1. Islam values justice and mercy above punishment and humiliation.
2. Community service would actually do some good to the nation, caning would not.
3. There's room for clemency in a first time offences.
4. A measured and compassionate approach to offences of personal morality is more likely to succeed in permanently changing people for the better - and isn't that the whole point of religion?

Anonymous said...

My Dear Katharina Sri (former: Noor Aza)
Germany

Well,the so called tamaddun westerners use water board treament on prisoners..still execute prisoners..and without any shadow of a doubt are themselves highly afflicted(see the number of reports on incest,child prostitution etc etc..) SIS is quite a powerful NGO,with links to powere elites of this country..what have they done in bakun?Bakun women r being used as sex slaves since 1996!..and Malysia is one of the main hubs for human trafficking!!..people in this coutry have this weird desire to be a mat salleh ciplak,but they lack the brain,and emotional intellegnece to differentiate things..simply like to ciplak bulat bulat like a bozo..and they then like "show off" to the public their ciplakism..that's why most of the NGO's in this coutrty r quite ineffective because most of them r ruled by nervous mental energies which only has the capacity to bla bla li bit here n there,get funds frm over c,bikin ceramahs,attend parties,and donate here n there lil bit..they dont have that vitality power of europeans or middle easteren organiszations..right or wrong punishments,stone age/devilsih or not certain laws/regulation should be debated..but to label without thinking that "islam" is primitive etc etc is sheer ignorance..the problem with us is we humans r not yet developed to fully apprehend and comprehend the magnitude of the TRUTHS REVEALED IN THE QURAN..now ,here is the challenge..the purest form of democarcy is FOR THE DIVINE,BY THE DIVINE,TO THE DIVINE..who is willing to accept this SUPREME TRUTH?I am willing to bet almost no one!!Why?becaus eaccepting that TRUTH will require dissolving our f*kin egos!!,which is the most difficult thing,and Islam DEMANDS surrendering of our egos and everything else!!

Anonymous said...

Dear Anonymous,
It seems you r exactly who you were criticising frantically.
in case you don't know, the NGO in Malaysia have brought up and highlighted a lot of issues to the public attention. Almost all of these issues would had been covered up and swept under the carpet by our BN government (hope u r not part of it)
Please understand, being NGO, they don't have the power and authority (under Malaysia Laws) to stop or interfere effectively.
Take the case of the recent exposure of sexual abuse of Penan girls, the BN official called them "Negative NGO" just because they exposed the true facts of the issue.
When u point your finger at the NGO for doing nothing (which is not a correct accusation), there are 3 other fingers pointing towards yourself.

Why don't you ask:
- why has any muslim organisation doing anything to help the Penan & the Bumiputras affected by Bakun?
- What have your good self done with refernce to all the noble causes you had said in your comment?

As muslims, we should use our brain and intelligence. name calling and west bashing may win some praise from the crowd that pratices "herd mentality", but to win a real arguement, facts and only facts can get us the victory.

finding faults is easy. talking about justice and obidient to GOD is simple. walk the talk is what big men do. so, are you a talker or walker?

Salam

Anonymous said...

Sahabat Kanan,

Mrk yg beri komen ati-sebat ni pun tak tau macam mana hukuman sebat ni bakal dijalankan. Rujuklah hadith, nak pukul pesalah arak, kasut, kain, pelepah tamar digunakan. Nak pukul pun lebih lembut dr cikgu disiplin. Takda isu dalam hal kesian. Malah dalam hukum Islam, tidak boleh diungkit kesalahan dan semua rekodnya dipadamkan dunia akhirat.Jangan diungkit kerana di sisi Allah, org itu sudah terhapus dosanya.Tak payah komuniti-komuniti servis.

Bila bab hukum Islam, kenapa pula nak kesian2?

Tu indon yang rompak rumah, bank, kedai, kesian lah kat diorang, susah2 belayar ke negara orang, takde duit, hidup susah, ada yang buang mayat member ke laut kerana nak survive, kesian la sama prompak2 tu..jangan dihukum penjara, jangan dihukum bunuh.

Tu nordin Mat top, kesian la sama dia, kenapa patut dibunuh pulak, dia tu cuma nak tegak kebenaran, US dok bunuh orang Islam. Kan itu hak asasi? Tak ke korang kesian, bini dia banyak2 tu sapa nak jaga?

Tu pengedar dadah, ingat diorang nak sangat ke edar dadah? Hutang byk, hutang kereta, hutang rumah, hutang kad kredit. Last2 nak gantung? Kesianla, anak bini, girlfren diorg sapa nak tanggung?

Tu perogol, diorg tu takde duit nak langgan pelacur.tak ke kesian korang kat diorang? Nak lepas hak asasi pun salah ke? Compassionate la sikit...

Tu drink driver yang mabuk sampai mati-mati anak orang tu, nak kena kesian jugak le kan?

Kalau hukum Islam nak kena kesian2, kenapa pesalah lain tak payah kesian?

Undang-undang adalah undang-undang. Tak suka, boleh jalan.

Kalau undang-undang Malaysia, dah tak suka, pergi migrate negeri lain.

Kalau undang2 Allah, dah tak suka,cari la bumi lain yang Tuhan lain cipatakan.

Tulang Besi said...

Anonymous Smoking Gun said...

TB,
I'm not going to comment on your vitriolic attack on SIS. I reckon you're entitled to your opinion. But why don't you rationally point out how and why they're wrong instead of name-calling.
.

I actually pointed out inconsistencies in their stand and how they seem to contradict themselves.

It is my opinion that we should never allow single old maids to dictate policies on women and families.

Tulang Besi said...

My Dear Katharina Sri (former: Noor Aza)
Germany

Well,the so called tamaddun westerners use water board treament on prisoners..still execute prisoners..and without any shadow of a doubt are themselves highly afflicted(see the number of reports on incest,child prostitution etc etc..) SIS is quite a powerful NGO,with links to powere elites of this country..what have they done in bakun?Bakun women r being used as sex slaves since 1996!..and Malysia is one of the main hubs for human trafficking!!..people in this coutry have this weird desire to be a mat salleh ciplak,but they lack the brain,and emotional intellegnece to differentiate things..simply like to ciplak bulat bulat like a bozo..and they then like "show off" to the public their ciplakism..that's why most of the NGO's in this coutrty r quite ineffective because most of them r ruled by nervous mental energies which only has the capacity to bla bla li bit here n there,get funds frm over c,bikin ceramahs,attend parties,and donate here n there lil bit..they dont have that vitality power of europeans or middle easteren organiszations..right or wrong punishments,stone age/devilsih or not certain laws/regulation should be debated..but to label without thinking that "islam" is primitive etc etc is sheer ignorance..the problem with us is we humans r not yet developed to fully apprehend and comprehend the magnitude of the TRUTHS REVEALED IN THE QURAN..now ,here is the challenge..the purest form of democarcy is FOR THE DIVINE,BY THE DIVINE,TO THE DIVINE..who is willing to accept this SUPREME TRUTH?I am willing to bet almost no one!!Why?becaus eaccepting that TRUTH will require dissolving our f*kin egos!!,which is the most difficult thing,and Islam DEMANDS surrendering of our egos and everything else!!

September 23, 2009 11:47 AM
Delete
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Dear Anonymous,
It seems you r exactly who you were criticising frantically.
in case you don't know, the NGO in Malaysia have brought up and highlighted a lot of issues to the public attention. Almost all of these issues would had been covered up and swept under the carpet by our BN government (hope u r not part of it)
Please understand, being NGO, they don't have the power and authority (under Malaysia Laws) to stop or interfere effectively.
.

Am actually not blaming all the ngo's in Malaysia.

Just SIS. and thus far SIS has raised no beneficial issues on behalf of Malaysian women.

Anonymous said...

This is one crazy religion who had its' believers behaving & thinking like a bunch of BARBARIC TALIBANS.

Let us digest the following:

First, we have one poor freakin' lady who is destined for whipping over a minor thing such as consuming BEER (the punishment itself is already a JOKE)

Next, this freakin' lady rather accept whipping instead of appealing her punishment. This is all due to some freakin' rules stated in that freakin' lady's religion.

Next, we have a bunch a freakin' women from some freakin' religion's association trying to appeal the sentence of that one freakin' lady who had been caught consuming beer.

And now, we have a freakin' asshole who call himself TULANG BESI who is also a freakin' believer of this freakin' religion trying to condemn that group of freakin' women who are trying to appeal the sentance of that one freaking lady who had consumed beer.

The problem with this freakin' religion is that there are no clear guidelines & rules. This is the reason why many freakin' idiots who believe in this freakin' religion don't even know what is actually right & wrong.

Ain't this freakin' religion a freakin' JOKE???

Anonymous said...

Same OLD BORING topic!!!

As long as Malaysia is branded an ISLAMIC country & as long as we have Muslims calling the shots.....Malaysia will always remain as the WORLD NO.1 HUMILIATED COUNTRY.

Anonymous said...

It really fascinate me to see why ISLAM have the fonds for violence & physical pains.

Take a look at the following examples:

1) The never ending Palestine-Israel saga (god knows how many had been killed & injured)
2) The constant bombings in Iraq & Afhganistan (They either love to KILL or get KILLED)
3) The famous 911 (They know how to commit suicide via the high tech way)
4) The notorious Islamic network of Al-Qaeda (Mad bunch of Muslims)
5) The cow head incident in Shah Alam (These Muslims are NOT mad but stupid instead)

....And now we have the never-ending KARTIKA case.

It seems Muslims kind of love physical pains.

Anonymous said...

@Tualng Besi: "....the problem with us is we humans r not yet developed to fully apprehend and comprehend the magnitude of the TRUTHS REVEALED IN THE QURAN..now ,here is the challenge..the purest form of democarcy is FOR THE DIVINE,BY THE DIVINE,TO THE DIVINE..who is willing to accept this SUPREME TRUTH?I am willing to bet almost no one!!Why?becaus eaccepting that TRUTH will require dissolving our f*kin egos!!,which is the most difficult thing,and Islam DEMANDS surrendering of our egos and everything else!!"

Boy, Tulang Besi, swearing at a woman do you?! I knew it; Islamists like you, despite egoistically labelling themselves as `intellectuals' simply cannot have intelligent and rational debate; especially with outspoken women like me and the Muslim feminists/women in the brilliant NGO SIS! Excuse me; it's due to ego and power maniacal male elites like you, as controlled centrally, by Dark Age Arabic/Al-Qaeda-Muslim Brotherhood-Iranian Mullahs style and ideology of Islamism, that the civilisation of Islam has become full of lies! Let me ask you something - do God write the Koran? Or is it Arabic-centric based male elites who wrote it? Just like when Mernissi discovered from studying around 5,000 words and tradition of Mohammed, the `command' to wear the veil was only made after Mohammed died -through one of his woman-hating companion, who had a problem with listening to the demands of the outspoken Mohammed's child bride Aisha!

Thusis why, Christianity has progressed depite what the Varican wants, because now, there are diverse truths, and no so-called (One-Homogenous) Supreme Truth, that this Arabic power-centre like to manipulate to the extreme! Because, the bible is also written by elitists men mostly! Thus, only God has the key to that Supreme Truth! But due to the great Reformation since the 1500s, ordinary beings like me, could interpret the bible individually and so freely as graced by our God originally, according to our RATIONAL (as opposed to blind-) faith. Which depends on our spirit and soul i.e our inner being. Thus, if one is evil or unkind innately, one would interpret the bible unjustly and irrationally! Priests are just teachers, as we have discovered, from such rational interpretation of our bible, not our masters nor judges! Further, unless one harm others criminally, thus personal behaviour and thinking is judged by God!

Katharina Sri (former: Noor Aza)
Germany

Smoking Gun said...

TB,
I notice you didn't respond to the many questions I posed.

I am however somewhat baffled by this statement of yours:

'It is my opinion that we should never allow single old maids to dictate policies on women and families.'

Apart from being a grossly inaccurate description of SIS, can't you refute their arguments without resorting to silly misogynistic remarks?

In the first place no one in SIS has ever successfully dictated any policies. The word 'dictated' hardly applies when you know full well their approach is one of analytical thought and rational discussion. Isn't this an approach encouraged in Islam? I repeat, if you disagree with their various stands, do so logically, for surely truth stands out clearly from error.

Secondly, it's absurd to claim that a single woman's voice is worth less than anyone else's.

You have your world view, SIS have theirs. Perhaps god knows best. Shall we just agree to disagree?

Anonymous said...

Smoking Gun,
It's pointless to argue with androcentric males who think they are always right.

You have rightly pointed out, TB avoids questions that require factual arguements. the same for many self-proclaimed moral defenders. Its personal attacks that they prefer.

through all the comments on this blog, I haven't found a single one that is actually factual. they are either blanket statements (the west is evil), SIS is anti-islam (no supporting fact given), Oppose me = oppose islam (again no explanation why and when they represent 1 billion muslims)

anyway, is this all new or something unexpected from them?

yawn...

Anonymous said...

hey anon.. who are you insulting other religion by calling it barbaric.. dint you think that christian who did genocide at bosnia and doing holocausts not barbaric... do you think you are so nice by calling islam is barbaric... oh ya, yo dint have a sacred book that guide you good enough.. that why you so 'nasty'

Tulang Besi said...

In the first place no one in SIS has ever successfully dictated any policies. The word 'dictated' hardly applies when you know full well their approach is one of analytical thought and rational discussion. Isn't this an approach encouraged in Islam? I repeat, if you disagree with their various stands, do so logically, for surely truth stands out clearly from error..


Smoking Gun,
I don't know why you keep harping about evidence and statistics. To date, you have failed to show that my writings are not based on facts, well estadblished facts.

You're just making sweeping statements to hide the fact that you're unable to provide any clear retort to my writing.

In fact, i dare u to show which part of my piece that is erred or non factual.

Smoking Gun said...

TB,
Please refer to my first post and explain where I am guilty of "hiding behind sweeping statements". I think I made a cogent argument and one that you have yet to respond to other than with a rant against "old maids".

For a good example of sweeping statements one need look no further than your own writings, quote (capitals my own):

"ALL issues raised by SIS are irrelevant and weak"
"Their current course is based on NOTHING MORE THAN lies and fictitious idealogy"
"SIS is a waste of oxygen"
"They are like our tonsils"
"They should be removed fast if we want a healthier life in future"
"It is my opinion that we should NEVER allow single old maids to dictate policies on women and families."

Unquote. Perhaps these qualify as "well-established facts" in your mind but you'll have to do better than that to convince a wider audience.

Not that I ever mentioned the words "evidence and statistics" but yes, my point is simply that, if you disagree with a person or organisation, do so on issues and with logical rebuttal. Not on your perception of their religious inclinations (which you may have misread in any case).

For example I disagree with you on SIS and have explained why. However I find much to agree with in some of your other posts e.g on good governance, corruption etc. Which prevents me from dismissing you as 'a waste of oxygen' or as a misogynistic talebanist.
Clear now?
Good night then :)

Anonymous said...

Funny...they call themselves SISTERS IN ISLAM but they oppose everything related to ISLAM.

Anonymous said...

Anons,

This is pure and simple. For us is Islam, for you, yours personally. We believe in Islam, we believe in Allah, we believe what ALLAH has given us in the Quran to follow and obey. Others are non relevent. Period!

Anonymous said...

Smoking Gun,
good one.
That's the way to present an arguement.
But u know what. I think TB will just ignore your comments and willnot reply.
Simply because he doesn't have the facts.

To the many Anonymous,

It's indeed sad that all my fellow muslims could say was
"Islam is good because Al Quran says so"

It takes more than that self referencing statement to convince others.
Similarly, we will laugh if a communism believer tells us "Communism is the best because Chairman Mao says so". see the point. Please present more factual arguement to back up why Islam is good.
e.g.
- True Islam practices fair & justice regardless of race &religion.
- TrueIslam is color blind.
- True Islam treats everyone humanely, including animals
- There is only 1 Islam. no such thing as Sunni, Wahabi etc
- True muslims are patient and graceful

Now, are you practicing this truly in your heart and action?
If yes. Congratulation.
If no. Allah is watching.

Anonymous said...

Those unbeliever will say as what above anon say. That why don't intervene to our religion. It only show your stupidity about our religion... What a shame

Anonymous said...

dear Anon,
which one of the above about Islam was wrong? Kindly point out. FYI. I m also a muslim. the fact that I don't agree with the mainstream doesn't mean I don't know Islam.

I repeat my points as below.

- True Islam practices fair & justice regardless of race &religion.
- TrueIslam is color blind.
- True Islam treats everyone humanely, including animals
- There is only 1 Islam. no such thing as Sunni, Wahabi etc
- True muslims are patient and graceful.

Please tell me what was wrong with the above.

Anonymous said...

//Excuse me; it's due to ego and power maniacal male elites like you, as controlled centrally, by Dark Age Arabic/Al-Qaeda-Muslim Brotherhood-Iranian Mullahs style and ideology of Islamism, that the civilisation of Islam has become full of lies! Let me ask you something - do God write the Koran? //
katrina..hehe..r u talking about Lutherism,The Spanish inquisition,born again dubyaism,the horrors of WW1 and 2,pax americana,neo colonialism?..i think u should read Anatole France's "revolt of the angels" to know "what" really influences judaism and christianity..and did god write Quran?Well,what do u think?Do u think one of the fallen angels wrote it?When u speak of god,u mean personal,impersonel God,ominiptent God?Wah tau u r a dungu,n tak akan faham anything..but takpa..in the Quran,it's very clearly revealed..'THERE IS NO GOD BUT HE"..and at the end of the verses reveals other aspects /attributes of Allah such as love,wisdom,power etc etc..SO WHAT IS THE HE AND WHY THE VERSES ENDS IN WITH WORDS LIKE "WISDOM","BLISS","POWER","COMPASSION","LOVE" ETC ETC..the reason is Prophet Muhammad in his ascension enters the extreme limits of infinity called the SUPREME CONSCIOUS BEIING(this is a vedic term) WHICH IS STATIC AND DYNAMIC AT THE SAME TIME,TIME AND TIMELESS AT THE SAME TIME..IT'S IN THIS CONSCIOUSNESS,CREATIONS START TO MANIFEST,(NOT THE NIRVANA OF BUDDHA)..THERE IS NOTHING BEYOND THE SUPREME CONSCIOUS BEING..AND THE HOLY QURAN IS ALL ABOUT REVELATIONS OF THE SUPREME CONSCIOUS BEING..the HE(and other words such eternal,absolute,omnipotent) r revelations of the static apsects of the SUPREME,and words such as "wisdom,blis,might etc etc are the dynamic aspects of the SUPREME..Physics 101..kinetic/potential energies..u digg katrina?..yes,the Quran is all about the TRANSCENDENT DIVINE,DIVINE ACTIONS,INTELLIGENCE,POWERS,KNOWLEDGE..only the vedas/upanishads/gita can give the clues to unlock thE mysteries of the quran..not the bible/the talmud..and readers/fans of malaysiawaves r aware of this..

Finally,it's PROPHET MUHAMMD WHO PLANTED THE SEEDS OF DEMOCRACY/SOCIALISM..AND WE ONLY TOUCHED ONLY A PORTION OF IT,NOT THE FULL,WHOLE,TOTAL MEANING OF REAL DEMOCRACY AS REVEALED IN THE QURAN

Anonymous said...

People have no idea what is evoked on the day of atonement(yom kippur)..

Anonymous said...

When all is said, Love and Force together can save the world eventually, but not Love only or Force only. Therefore Christ had to look forward to a second advent and Mahomed's religion, where it is not stagnant, looks forward through the Imams to a Mahdi.
(Sri Aurobindo thoughts and aphorisms)

Anonymous said...

All those stupid,idiot mat salleh celups thinks we asians r barbaric,have no civillisation,and have to depend on the west for everything,when in actual fact,the barbaric,ignorant west had to borrow everything from the east..science & maths,inventions,medicine,spirituality EVERYTHING..and due to their dungusim,christianty and alsmot everthing else became devilish! and jews,and gentiles were buthchered and became slaves..all in the name of christ,science and technology,economics,democracy!!.True,we asians have also deviated,and have adopted,aped the ruthless methods of the west(due to the long period of colonisation),but we asians do have in us a tradition which is rich and varied,and full of potentialities to discover,and widen our present and the future(even the mast sallehs r once again moving eastwords to seek 4 answers)..we must never forget asian civillisation have always been based on spiritual/religious realities/movements

Anonymous said...

Anons said "All those stupid,idiot mat salleh celups thinks we asians r barbaric ...."

so predictable (and yet again, no supporting evidence given, as usual la)

He/she was right about one thing though, we (south east asians) have our own culture and traditions and history. But jokers like them (the Anons above) want to copy from Arabs and want to ersae our richly cultured past. Ancient civilisations much older than Melaka like Lembah Bujang, Kanganegara, srivijaya etc are largely ignored. Kacang lupakan kulit?

to be fair, We asians don't have to learn from mat salleh in cruelty and barbaric acts. The Ottoman Empire, the Mongolians, the countless wars between kingdoms in anciant India are just some "good" examples how we asians outperformed mat salleh.
(space limit, pls check on internet for more info on these)

By the way, the west borrowed the ideas from Asia but improved on them. name me one modern item that's not invented in the west.
Telephone? Internet? computer? x-ray? motor?

It may hurts our feeling (and pride) to know our dependency on the west in modern days, but face the reality and move on do better. Being a sore loser and sulking with sour grape mentality will not help.
FYI, aping the Arabs will not help too.

Anonymous said...

Who the heck gave these blind statements?

- True Islam practices fair & justice regardless of race &religion.
Yes, it's BN who treat you differently. Not Islam.
- TrueIslam is color blind.
Yes, it's BN who treat you differently. Not Islam

- True Islam treats everyone humanely, including animals.
Yes, but doesnt mean we cannot eat meat. Islam teach us how to slaughter the animals and which animal we can eat. We dont eat frog or pig.

- There is only 1 Islam. no such thing as Sunni, Wahabi etc
You need to learn more. Either you're Sunni, Syiah, Wahabi or whatever it is we still have one thing in common. We believe the one and the only God, Allah and Prophet Muhammad is His Messanger. I bet you dont know what is the different between Sunni and Syiah.

- True muslims are patient and graceful.
Wah, Palestinian no need to fight la. just let israeli shoot their head.

Anonymous said...

To anon who want me point which statement he got wrong,

let me quote yours:
It's indeed sad that all my fellow muslims could say was
"Islam is good because Al Quran says so"



Why you question other muslim to quote from Quran..? Dont you know that believing Quran is one of RUKUN IMAN? Oh man i think you dint have or have lost ur islamic soul.. did you do your 5 daily prayer???? i doubt so.. coz now many have his name islamic name but no soul in it... and no wonder they will bashing islam coz their kiblat is westerner

Anonymous said...

http://mainansemata.wordpress.com/

link baik punya.. banyak rahsia politik terdedah..

Anonymous said...

Dear all,
I was the one who asked those questions but the answers I got back from the general "anonymous".. well... i m not sure should I laugh or cry.
Why can't my brothers/sisters in Islam have critical thinking and a big heart to listen to others?

response such as "Why you question other muslim to quote from Quran..? " doesn't even understand what I was trying to put forward.

I said in order to convince other that Islam is good, we can't use self referencing statement like "Islam is good because Al Quran says so". We must give more objective supporting evidence like
- Islam stands for fair n justice for all.
- Islam is color blind and doesn't discriminate based on race, wealth, social status etc.
- and so on
So, calling me "lost soul", accusing me of not praying (w/o proof) are definately not Islamic. Ask your ulama what's the punishment for fitnah.

And to the other Anonymous who said "who the heck asked these blind ..."
how can those be "BLIND Questions" when you answered "Yes" to all of them? didn't our Prophet SAW taugh us to be patient and graceful?
And yes. I don't care the difference between Sunni & Shia & Wahabi & Sufi. Because these are created by human (Arabs) and didn't exist during the time of our prophet SAW. These sects have divided muslims for hundreds of years. example: war btwn Iraq & Iran, the killing btwn Sunni & Shia in Iraq etc. don't blame it on the West. The ones who did the jobs were all Muslims.

So please, my bro/sis is Islam. have critical minds and think out of box. there are problems in our muslim community. face it and solve it. denial can't help us.

salam
J

Tulang Besi said...


"ALL issues raised by SIS are irrelevant and weak"
"Their current course is based on NOTHING MORE THAN lies and fictitious idealogy"
"SIS is a waste of oxygen"
"They are like our tonsils"
"They should be removed fast if we want a healthier life in future"
"It is my opinion that we should NEVER allow single old maids to dictate policies on women and families."
.

Smoking Gun,

If you had read my article in it's entirity and not pick and choose like what you did, then you would see the support to the conclusions i've made.

The entire shenanigan on the Kartika Sari case is a clear proof to the conclusions i've made above.

U ommit the entire article and pick statements that u demand that I proof.

When the proof is in the parts that u have ommitted.

Tulang Besi said...

September 24, 2009 8:59 AM
Delete
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Smoking Gun,
good one.
That's the way to present an arguement.
But u know what. I think TB will just ignore your comments and willnot reply.
Simply because he doesn't have the facts.

To the many Anonymous,
.

Sorry but you're barking up the wrong tree.

Smoking GUn ommits the crux of my article and pick and choose parts of the article she wants.

And then she claims that i make unsubstantiated accusations.

But the substance to my conclusions are contained in the parts of my article that she had ommitted.

So, again, you're barking up the wrong tree here.

Anonymous said...

I said in order to convince other that Islam is good, we can't use self referencing statement like "Islam is good because Al Quran says so". We must give more objective supporting evidence like
- Islam stands for fair n justice for all.
- Islam is color blind and doesn't discriminate



How about if u start it 1st... since u said that u r muslim and a muslim that think out of box...

Anonymous said...

I said in order to convince other that Islam is good, we can't use self referencing statement like "Islam is good because Al Quran says so". We must give more objective supporting evidence like
- Islam stands for fair n justice for all.
- Islam is color blind and doesn't discriminate



How about if u start it 1st... since u said that u r muslim and a muslim that think out of box...

Anonymous said...

He is an out of box muslim???? nah he will more to NATO (no action talk only)

Anonymous said...

Hi Anons,
I do agree with you guys that many fellow Muslims in Malaysia are NATO, or worse "bikin tak serupa cakap"

Can't blame them. If you grow up in a society under BN with controlled media, "excellent" edu system, "top of class" examples of the UMNO leaders, you would prob become one of them.

They r so used to take what's given w/o using their mind. critical thinking is not part of "Malay culture", thats what UMNO wants them to believe from young.

They believe what their uztas, ulama tell them w/o reading the Quran themselves to verify.

They think everything from the Arab world is good and from the west is bad.

Of course, the above is a bit over generalising. but the main stream Malay Muslims prob fit into it pretty well. my apologies to those who are not.

Salam
J

Anonymous said...

see he more to NATO... he talk about himself lol... talk rubbish... ask use objective supporting evidence and bla bla bla.. he himself cant produce 1... cocky talk

Anonymous said...

what do you expect from a person say 'well i'm a muslim too' and act like he more knowledgeable than ulama (oh ya maybe he think he speak arab and understand Quran too)

Anonymous said...

Katharina Sri (former: Noor Aza)
Germany

TB has every right to swear at you. Your post ain't exactly polite.

Define what do you mean by egoistical islamists? In the Quran , the law has already been defined , prohibiting alcohol. Kartika was brave enough to break the law , she got caught , she should be brave enough to face the repercussion. Simple and straight forward.

We muslims believe that the Quran came from Allah. What do you care? You are no longer a muslim. Now you bring up Prophet Muhammad (saw) child bride Aishah (ra). You folks have been going about child brides till the turn of the last century. You are just a hypocrite. The child bride in Aishah (ra) argument will not work. If you are now christian , biblical mary at 12-14 got married (and consumate)to joseph at 90 years of age. What do you call that?

'In the late nineteenth century,"Age of consent" referred to the legal age at which a girl could consent to sexual relations. Men who engaged in sexual relations with girls who had not reached the age of consent could be criminally prosecuted. American reformers were shocked to discover that the laws of most states set the age of consent at the age of ten or twelve, and in one state, Delaware, the age of consent was only seven...'

ref : http://womhist.alexanderstreet.com/teacher/aoc.htm

SIS should know about the law in the Quran. They are mostly lawyers but shitty lawyers , I may add. The penan ladies have been abused , anything from SIS? Not a whimper.

Which church taught you that the command to wear the veil was made after the death of Prophet Muhammad (saw)? Can you provide a reference.

What do you mean that christianity (your present professed religion) has advanced? You are just blind in your faith as ever. Where is the trinity or biblical jesus claiming to be god in your bible?

Muslims have been reading the Quran freely for 1400 years compared to christians who can only read the bible by themselves only 500 odd years ago. You are way behind.

The difference is that we muslims follow the law of the Quran to the letter but you christians treat the bible as just a story book. What is the use of having the bible then?

You are nothing but just an exmuslim with an axe to grind but not knowing anything about your former religion and now blindly glorifying your present religion. In short you are just trying to BS your way thru.

sam1528

Anonymous said...

OK.
I gave up on this.
it seems everybody only listens to what they want to listen, and sees what they want to see in others comments.
name calling, insulting, much more negative energy than positive energy.

I have quoted several real cases to back up my points but still i was accused of talking cock.. well well...

well, too bad. this is not a good forum for discussion but just a bunch of people venting their frustrations. i m outta here.

Saudara TB,
good luck. unfortunately, your target readers don't intent to learn from your blog. they are just here for a shouting game.

Salam
J

Smoking gun said...

I have to agree with you J. Sadly, on this occasion TB hasn't done much better than his readers -none of his responses have been real responses at all. O well.

Anonymous said...

Dear J,

Don't you aware that you insulting other too at which producing a comment like that? Pls do see yourself first before blaming other. And you runaway when you are fail to force people accepting your idea? what a joke. Maybe NATO is suit with you as what they said.

Anonymous said...

//By the way, the west borrowed the ideas from Asia but improved on them. name me one modern item that's not invented in the west.
Telephone? Internet? computer? x-ray? motor?//
good lord..500 years of western civillisation,and all they managed 2 invent r 4 telecommunication devices?..what a f*kin joke..kahkahkah..maybe asians could have gone further if they had not been colonised..after all,the middle east started using nano technology 300 years ago..huge amount of energy has been spent on fighting for independence and on rebuilding..and the work to decolonise the mind set should someday start..yeah,united states of bankrupt,the last super colonialist now need to borrow $0.50 frm China in order to spend $1.00..kakahkah..pochee..finito..seelah what happend to England and Europe after ww2..yeah,same thing now happening to United Stattes Of Debt(semua kira close to USD53 trillion!!)

Anonymous said...

Of courselah,SIS wont be able to do anthing other then lip service,expressing "shock" becos bakun,penan,dam,sarawak..all these keywords relate to Mamak Pundek Mahataik & UMNO..and Marina and Zainah r buddies what..so nothinglah..

Anonymous said...

And whenever they shout "HUMAN RIGHTs"..meself dunno..wheter to laugh or to cry..pee brained phonies just love to act..born "DUH",got siki strength to pass GCE A levels and get some degree frm Uni sintok,and due to koneksyons,dapat high postions..and every now and then,teriak "HUMAN RIGHTS,'FREDDOM OF SPEECH"..

Anonymous said...

In the ordinary Nature we live in the Ignorance and do not know the Divine. The forces of the ordinary Nature are undivine forces because they weave a veil of ego and desire and unconsciousness which conceals the Divine from us. To get into the higher and deeper consciousness which knows and lives luminously in the Divine, we have to get rid of the forces of the lower nature and open to the action of the Divine Shakti which will transform our consciousness into that of the Divine Nature.

This is the conception of the Divine from which we have to start – the realisation of its truth can only come with the opening of the consciousness and its change.



The distinction between the Transcendental, the Cosmic, the Individual Divine is not my invention, nor is it native to India or to Asia – It is, on the contrary, a recognised European teaching current in the esoteric tradition of the Catholic Church where it is the authorised explanation of the Trinity, – Father, Son and Holy Ghost – and it is very well-known to European mystic experience. In essence it exists in all spiritual disciplines that recognise the omnipresence of the Divine – In Indian Vedantic experience and in Mahomedan yoga (not only the Sufi, but other schools also) – the Mahomedans even speak of not two or three but many levels of the Divine until one reaches the Supreme. As for the idea in itself, surely there is a difference between the individual, the cosmos in space and time, and something that exceeds this cosmic formula or any cosmic formula. There is a cosmic

Page – 510


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

consciousness experienced by many which is quite different in its scope and action from the individual consciousness, and if there is a consciousness beyond the cosmic, infinite and essentially eternal, not merely extended in Time, that also must be different from these two. And if the Divine is or manifests Himself in these three, is it not conceivable that in aspect, in His working, He may differentiate Himself so much that we are driven, if we are not to confound all truth of experience, if we are not to limit ourselves to a mere static experience of something indefinable, to speak of a triple aspect of the Divine?

(Excerpt frm Sr Aurobindo's "The Object of Integral Yoga")

Anonymous said...

Dear Anon J,
We cant think everything out of the box. There are few things in Muslim world that we need to accept as it is in the Quran or Hadith.
Not everything we can have "more objective supporting evidence".

If someone ask you
1. why we cannot korban a chicken?
2. Why we must take wudhuk before we pray?
What will be your answer? Please give me your objective evidence too.

Islam not created by human. Why we need Pendidikan Islam if Pendidikan Moral also taugh us to be patient and graceful

PahNur said...

Dear TB (hopefully not a synonym of "consumption").
If the issue here is "not to be hypocritical" then I suppose you should write a nice verbiage on the Pahang Syariah to go nab the Head of the State first since it's an open secret that the whole clan drinks tapai-type of water (ethanol, just in case you're wondering...that's the intoxicating type of alcohol...in case you wonder about that too...)and oh, while they're at it, why not close down the ..what is that place where people go to berjudi and minum todi in the state of Pahang called again?..ah yes...Genting Highlands.

Please, don't tell us what is hypocritical.

UIAM said...

Aiyoooo.... those of you who do not understand Syariah law, just be quiet la. Why make big fuss when you yourselves do not know how the caning process is done under Syariah law?!

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