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Monday, January 11, 2010

UMNO’s Responsibility in the Firebombings of Churches is Undeniable

No matter how hard UMNO tries, they cannot wipe their hands clean from the strings of firebombings of churches all over the country. They simply cannot.
Najib and UMNO leaders were forced to go on damage control mode, visiting the Tarbenacle Church in Wangsa Melawati and offering RM500k to rebuild the church. Then, Hishamuddin threathened to use the ISA on anyone linked to the church firebombings.

But, then again, people are starting to question, wasn’t it UMNO who escalated the issue to unnecessary levels? Wasn’t it UMNO owned media flashing implicit racist messages by various UMNO and Malay leaders on an issue that is never an issue all over the Muslim world?

Wasn’t it UMNO and Najib who openly says that they cannot stop a demonstration that is clearly laced with racist and sensitive messages?
In short, UMNO made an issue out of a non issue. The church fire-bombings is a direct consequence of UMNO fanning racial and religious sentiment over the “Allah Name-The Herald” issue. To put it simply, if UMNO had just stick to the facts of the case, then they will see that the issue is actually a non issue.

UMNO HAS BEEN PLANNING TO MAKE AN ISSUE OUT OF THIS ISSUE SINCE EARLY 2008

An email I received, shortly before I was kicked out by the Pro-Tem President of a Pro Tem organization called “Muslim Blogger Alliance” led by a figure who calls himself Mahaguru58.

Apparently, the meeting was also attended by the likes of Rocky Bru and Nuraina Samad, figures who has always been seen as liberals. Please bear in mind that the meeting was held last year. In other words, UMNO’s resistance against “The Herald” has been on record since last year and not something new.

Among the principle attendee of the meeting are high ranking members of JAKIM and the great Dato Zahid Hamidi himself. The issue of “The Herald” using the term Allah is apparently HIGH on the meeting’s agenda.

I tried to put some sense in the MBA by writing articles stating the futility of their cause and that Islam permits the usage of Allah for non Muslims. But instead, Mahaguru58 kicked me out of the forum without offering a single explanation. So much for calling himself a supported for the Islamic cause. Where type of Islam is he trying to exhibit by kicking me out without any reason offered? A classic example of a hypocrite (munafik).

An excerpt of the email can be seen below:




















The full text of the email sent to me by Mahaguru58 can be read at the bottom of this blog entry.

What’s also funny is that the President of MBA has also admitted to be following a Sufi sect deemed to be deviated by JAKIM. Yet, JAKIM still treats the Mahaguru58 as their ally. Funny, how pragmatic people if JAKIM can become.

“ALLAH NAME-THE HERALD” ISSUE IS MEANT TO BREAK PAKATAN RAKYAT

The main aim of this issue is to make PAS feels awkward in Pakatan Rakyat and force PAS to join up with UMNO in the spirit of brotherhood and protecting Islam. The key component towards making this campaign a success is PAS’s support.

But, thank God All Mighty that PAS managed to see through UMNO’s deception and lies. They managed to shave off tempatations from the likes of ABIM whom had once been responsible in tricking PAS into working with UMNO before ( remember the talk on Palestine between Ustaz Fadzil and Dr Mahathir? It was all ABIM’s handiwork and Dr Mahathir and UMNO got all the benefits from the meeting).

This time around, ABIM made a jackass of themselves and failed to get PAS to join them. Their call for battle is not even resonating with UMNO’s rank and file. Their demonstration is poorly attended and UMNO members largely stay away from ABIM’s activities.
PAS should stop becoming ABIM’s tool for pleasing UMNO. ABIM is virtually unknown unless they can get PAS to dance to UMNO’s tune. That is the only way ABIM can stay afloat and remain relevant.

With PAS’s rejection of UMNO’s battle cry, the plan is already dead in the water. I guess someone in the organization forgot to tell everyone that the party is off. The firebombed occurred on the eve of the demonstration. The plan went ahead as planned and it work in favor of Pakatan Rakyat instead.

The firebombings has given UMNO a very bad name. Their already bad image among Non Muslims in this country got worst. The so call rallying cry among Muslims also fell to deaf ears. No Muslims in this country will act in the name of Islam unless it is with the leadership of PAS. And PAS has decided to lead the way in forging dialogues and two-way communications with the Christian communities instead.

UMNO IS DEAD IN THE WATER

That’s right. The Malay support they had hopes for didn’t materialized. Meanwhile, the Non Malay support will suffer even more. I believe no moderates among non Malays would even want to share the same bus with UMNO.

And UMNO will never be able to shake of the perception that they are clearly responsible for this incident.

To make things worse, media from all over the world are covering the Church Firebombing thus reducing the image of Malaysia to a 3rd world despot country where racial strive is common. And all European media are covering the incident with great interest in just about all European languages. Malaysia is now seen as an intolerant country in several languages throughout Europe.

Think of the effect this will bring to the country’s economy, who is already in dire straits even as we speak. Thanks a lot, UMNO.

Finally, the time is right to reject UMNO unequivocally. There is nothing we can hope for from UMNO and Barisan Nasional. The one issue that UMNO has benefited so much electorally from Merdeka is stability among various races and religions is not shown to be false. UMNO has lost every single credibility they have as rulers of Malaysia. They are now Malaysia’s biggest liability.

Tulang Besi

[muslim-bloggers-alliance:766] Mahaguru58 and other Bloggers Dialogue with the Minister in charge of Islamic Affairs, PM's Department
muslim blogger alliance X
Repl MAHAGURU58 Assalamualaikum dear MBA members. I was invited to a closed door meeting with...2/14/09
MAHAGURU58Loading... 2/14/09

MAHAGURU58 to MUSLIM
show details 2/14/09

Assalamualaikum dear MBA members.

I was invited to a closed door meeting with Datuk Seri Dr. Hj. Ahmad
Zahid Hamidi, Minister in the Prime Minister's Department and in
charge of Islamic Affairs, Government of Malaysia day before yesterday
at the Shangrila Putrajaya. The meeting took place at 9pm at a
designated meeting hall in the exclusive hotel.

The invitation to me was relayed by Rocky Bru @ Ahiruddin Atan,
President of All Blogs to discuss amongst many other topics, the
problem being created by the publishers of the Malaysian Roman
Catholic Magazine 'Herald' who remain obstinate in using the term
'Allah' to represent their idea of God in their Malay section of their
Christian magazine.

Fellow blogger Nuraina Samad who blogs at http://nursamad.blogspot.com,
the daughter of National Laureate, Allahyarham Tan Sri Samad Ismail,
was also there and two other bloggers who wish to remain anonymous.

Also attending on behalf of the Malaysian Government's side was Dato'
Hj Wan Mohamad bin Dato' Sheikh Abd.Aziz, the Director General of
JAKIM, the Islamic Development Department of Malaysia, Dato' Hj
Ibrahim bin Lembut, the Director General and Chief Syarie Judge of the
Syariah Justice Department of Malaysia, Datuk Dr. Syed Ali Tawfik Al
Attas, the Director General of IKIM, the Institute of Islamic
Understanding Malaysia and other top officials of the Ministry
( Islamic Affairs, Prime Minister's Department).

The main subject of discussion centred upon the Minister's wish that
the Malaysian Bloggers especially those of us here in The Muslim
Bloggers Alliance led by me together with All Blogs under Rocky Bru
join forces with the Ministry (Islamic Affairs) and support JAKIM,
IKIM and other related Islamic Affairs Departments to help clear the
misunderstandings being unleashed upon the Malaysian populace by those
who have vested agendas against Islam and the Muslims of Malaysia by
creating this wave of controversy by pushing for such unheard of
demands before to use 'Allah' for their obviously unIslamic
publications, etc.

The Minister has been following postings done by many of us in the
Malaysian Blogosphere and supports the good work that most of us do to
help fight against the enemies of Islam through our respective blogs.

He admits to regularly read me too and also said that many of his
fellow ministers support me and those of us here in the Muslim
Bloggers Alliance.

Rocky Bru and Nuraina Samad are at the moment embroiled in engaging
the Islamophobes out there in our volatile Malaysian blogging scene
and have asked me to join forces with them in clearing the air about
what our stand is against the Christian Catholic magazine usage of
'Allah' to describe their distorted idea of God when in truth they do
not preach what Eesa Alaihis Salam himself preached that is to worship
none other than Allah Subhanahu Wa Ta'ala?

We discussed many things and amongst the ideas mooted was my idea to
first and foremost register our MBA and after that to launch a 'Mobile
Dakwah Unit' national team where we would be using a 3 sided open
panel van to travel to most major cities and rural areas.

Volunteers would then stop these Mobile Dakwah Units at places to be
chosen in major towns and public fields.

We would after Isya' prayers start screening informative documentary
films about what Islam truly is and to help the public gain truthful
information about our Islamic faith.

The screening will be done using projectors and utilize mobile
projection screens when needed or use the area's building walls when
necessary.

Airing informative documentaries through the broadcasting channels
doesn't attract on the field interactions such as what I proposed to
the Minister and the JAKIM, IKIM and Syariah DG's?

We need to return to the basics and approach the public face to face.

We can then after screening such films and documentaries attend to and
answer any questions posed by the public as far as matters such as the
Hudud Laws of Islam, the subject of apostasy as in the cases of Lina
Joy, Subashini and others, this usage of Allah by the Christian
Catholic Herald Magazine, and other matters which are being
misunderstood by the majority of Malaysians, both Muslims and
Disbelievers alike?

By using this direct to the people approach, we will then also be able
to distribute booklets, brochures, informative DVD's and other Islamic
Information material for free to the general public.

The Minister supports this idea of mine and asked me to coordinate
with JAKIM, IKIM and the Syariah Justice Department to work out the
program.

As far as the monetary needs are concerned, the Ministry will help
where it can and Datuk Seri Dr Hj Ahmad Zahid Hamidi asked that we
here in the MBA come up with about 40 dedicated bloggers whom he wants
to join him and the other top government officers in a meeting to
discuss this matter proper.

He also said that he wishes to have those of us who attended the
meeting at Shangrila Putrajaya to be ready to have an audience with
His Majesty, the Yang Di Pertuan Agong soon to address this current
situation where Islamophobia has been festering for quite some time
without the decisive corrective action be taken by those before him?

Datuk Seri Dr Ahmad Zahid Hamidi also asked that we work in tandem
with one another and not to let the cat out of the bag for now for we
have enemies both in and out of the ummah.

I am sharing this confidential development with you who are subscribed
to and registered with the MBA in total trust that you will not
disclose about this meeting between myself, Rocky Bru, Nuraina Samad,
those two other bloggers and the Minister and others especially the
Director General's of our nation's top most Islamic Departments
because I need to select and choose those who are willing to be
amongst our top 40 MBA delegation to be invited to the next meeting
with the Minister and others.

I am also giving you notice for each and every MBA member who is
registered with us to update your details in the member profile.

I am going to update the official MBA website with a list of every MBA
member with links to their respective blogs for the general public to
access and view them.

I need each of you dear MBA members to email me with your full list of
personal details for at the moment we do not yet have a proper working
committee to prepare all these.

I know that most of us are terribly busy with our own work and
personal life's but this is Fardhu Kifayyah as far as I am concerned
for the future of our ummah here in Malaysia depends on what we choose
to do in order to see to it that our Deen is protected from the evil
designs of our enemies out there, both declared and covert.

You need to be courageous and be firm when speaking up for Islam.

I need you to be with me in seeing to the proper registration and
formation of this Muslim Bloggers Alliance.

Today, we have come to be recognized as a legitimate representative of
the Muslim Bloggers this side of the world.

The Minister himself has given us his blessings and we stand to be
able to contribute officially as an Islamic NGO and do what we can for
the ummah and the nation using our collective pool of thoughts and
ideas to help our fellow Muslims and Malaysians in general.

I ask that you please email me your full details as per the usual
necessary details needed for registering your membership here in the
MBA:

1. Full name
2. Full blog address
3. Email address
4. Contact Mobile Number
5. Gender
6. Age
7. Profession

We do not have a secretary yet.

For now it is all up to me and Brother Ades has graciously set up and
sponsored our main website. He himself is quite busy with his studies
and I do not wish to burden him unnecessarily.

I'm okay with the setting up of this MBA on my own for now but when we
are all ready to meet and set up our office in actuality, I hope that
those of you who are able to will come forth and do your part by
assuming ownership and taking responsibility for the running of the
MBA proper.

I do not wish to see this MBA die with me. I need you to carry on
after I'm no longer around or unable to if I'm to live to be old and
grey in the real sense of the word. :P

Please resend me your details here to my emails :

admin@themuslimbloggersalliance.org
mahaguru58@gmail.com

Remember, keep this info contained in this email confidential.

I trust you to hold to this in the Name of Allah Subhanahu Wa Ta'ala.

Wabillahi Taufik Wal Hidayah.

Wassalamualaikum Warahmatullahi Wabarakatuh.

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64 comments:

Anonymous said...

SALUTE BRO TULANG BESI!!!!!!!!

Anonymous said...

What's also funny is that the President of MBA has also admitted to be following a Sufi sect deemed to be deviated by JAKIM. Yet, JAKIM still treats the Mahaguru58 as their ally. Funny, how pragmatic people if JAKIM can become."

Khakahkahakh..Jackyil oops ,solly Jakim says Sufism is deviant..yalah..nimrods,morons,iblis will always say like dat..this is yet another proof,islam malaysia telah dibolosi oleh setan,gargoyles..

Jati Diri said...

Rasanya catatan ini sebenarnya nak menunjukkan rasa tidak puashati saudara dengan individu tertentu....

Anonymous said...

piraah..catatan ini mengesahakan UMNO DAJJAL AND THEIR PENJILATS R FINITO..FINISHED..KAPUT..ADIOS AMIGO..SAYONARA..

Anonymous said...

TB, u sakit hati kena tendang kuar dr MBA, ye?

Patut pun u kena tendang, u mmg cibai!

Songkok Putih dan Batu Api dah dedah muka u mcm ne!

Cam sial je aku tgk!

Patutnya u kena ISA sbb kaki fitnah sana sini!

Bangsat lu!

Penjilat kristian!

PAS tk perlu harami mcm kamu!

Anonymous said...

Yalah..anyone can memorise verses..anyone can act alim..but how many can "hear" and "see" TRUTH?not to know is tak salah..but in this country there r too many pretenders..too many nimrods wearing the attire of imams..they r equally responsible for poisoning religion..they think they people will automatically bow to them..but ordinary folks have practical comman sence..and nowdays,people cant be fooled..padan muka!!..kahkahkahkah

Anonymous said...

Yes..UMNO is FINISHED..one of the signs is madness..violence,and hiring pesakit jiwas as cyber troopers r definate signs of it!kahkahkahkah

Anonymous said...

Everything is UMNO's fault! Your mistake is also UMNO's fault. So everything is a mistake. Including your birth to this world. Your stupidity is proof of Umno's mistake. Everything you see around you is UMNO's mistake.

And we all know the type of people who blamed others. They're just complainers... not doers.

And how many times you hear Najib blamed the oppositions?.....

Think.

caravanserai said...

Stay calm
Let the light shine
Through our darkness
See the good
For it is there

Life of good and bad
Light and dark everywhere
So stay calm
Let our God whip the evil doers
They can't hide any where

Evil doers are cowards
Hiding behind shadows
Inflicting damages of narrow mislead roles
Chances they will go
The fire crossing their souls

So stay calm
Adversities spark of life
Pray for peace and compassion
Sing it through
Let the songs bring cheer
To every corner every where

Anonymous said...

-sian umno, yg dikejar tak dapat, yg dikendong berciciran..

-mcm2 usaha gigih umno utk menaikkan huru hara prkauman, dr letak kepala babi di pgar masjid, arak n pijak2 kepala lembu , dan trkini bom gereja plak..

-zargus-

Anonymous said...

Saudara Tulang Besi

Jang, poilah tengok kobau tu. Lotehlah omak tengok kau ni. Asyik menulis fitnah jo.

Agaknya orang UMNO jugalah yang baling kapak kat cermin belakang kereta kickdefella itu ye....

Anonymous said...

Church attacks in Malaysia deepen racial tension
By EILEEN NG, Associated Press Writer Eileen Ng, Associated Press Writer – 1 hr 1 min ago

KUALA LUMPUR, Malaysia – Malaysia strongly condemned attacks on nine Christian churches and sought to assure foreign governments Monday of its commitment to religious freedom for minorities.

The unprecedented attacks have strained ties between minority Christians and the majority Malay Muslims, denting Malaysia's image as a moderate Muslim-majority country and raising questions about its political stability.

The attacks, which started Friday, were apparently triggered by a Dec. 31 High Court decision that overturned a government ban on Roman Catholics' using "Allah" to refer to their God in the Malay-language edition of their main newspaper, the Herald.

The ruling also applies to the ban's broader applications such as Malay-language Bibles, 10,000 copies of which were recently seized by authorities because they translated God as Allah. The government has appealed the verdict.

On Monday, the Home Ministry held a one-hour briefing for about 70 foreign diplomats to assure them that the situation was under control. The ministry pledged to "protect the sanctity" of the diversity of the country's religions and said police would step up patrols at churches and mosques around the country.

The ministry said the attacks were perpetrated by extremists who wanted to weaken the country's commitment to racial harmony, one of the key draws for foreign investors.

"These were not just attacks on houses of worship, they were attacks on the values and freedoms all Malaysians share," the statement said.

About 9 percent of Malaysia's 28 million people are Christian, most of whom are ethnic Chinese or Indian. Muslims make up 60 percent of the population and most are ethnic Malays.

Anonymous said...

The attacks are also a blow to racial unity espoused by Prime Minister Najib Razak under his "1Malaysia" slogan since taking power in April, and pose a new challenge for him as he seeks to strengthen his ruling coalition after its losses in 2008 general elections.

"It showed that, after 52 years of living together, nation building and national unity is in tatters," said Charles Santiago, an opposition member of Parliament. "The church attacks shattered notions of Malaysia as a model secular Muslim nation in the eyes of the international community.

The latest attack early Monday left the main entrance of the Borneo Evangelical Church in southern Negeri Sembilan state charred, said the Rev. Eddy Marson Yasir. He said it was unclear how the wooden door was burned, but there was no evidence that a firebomb had been used.

The church caters mostly to Christians from eastern Sabah and Sarawak states, who worship in the Malay language and use the word "Allah" to describe God.

Firebombs have been thrown at seven other churches nationwide since Friday, with another splashed with black paint. No one was hurt and the churches suffered little damage, except the Metro Tabernacle Church in a Kuala Lumpur suburb, which had its office on the first floor gutted by fire.

Some 130 Muslim voluntary groups have offered to help protect the churches by becoming the "eyes and ears" of the police, said Nadzim Johan, a representative of the groups.

Religious minorities in Malaysia have often complained about what they say is institutionalized religious discrimination as Islam takes on increasing dominance.

The Allah ban is unusual in the Muslim world. The Arabic word is commonly used by Christians to describe God in such countries as Egypt, Syria and Indonesia, the world's largest Muslim nation.

The Herald has been using Allah in its Bahasa Malaysia publication since 1995, but it was not until 2006 that it was warned by the government to stop using Allah to refer to God.

Some analysts say the government ban showed that Najib's ruling United Malays National Organization was using Islam to shore up its support among Malays, blurring the line between race and religion.

"Malaysia is heading toward dangerous waters," said James Chin, political science lecturer at Monash University in Malaysia. "Minorities are under siege and feel they don't have a place in Malaysia anymore," he said.

Tulang Besi said...

Anonymous Anonymous said...

Saudara Tulang Besi

Jang, poilah tengok kobau tu. Lotehlah omak tengok kau ni. Asyik menulis fitnah jo.

Agaknya orang UMNO jugalah yang baling kapak kat cermin belakang kereta kickdefella itu ye....

January 11, 2010 2:59 PM
.

Nak buek camano. Oghang UMNO sumo bangang yang amek amek.

Richard Loh said...

Please read the two speeches by PAS and umno Presidents one day after the Church bombing and the protest at the mosque and take this poll:

Poll : Which Party Do You Trust And Are More Sincere When Talking About Islam To The Non Muslim Malaysians

Anonymous said...

kihkihkih..hisaputing nak pi jumapa kedutaan asing..apa di nak cakap.."all under control..nothing to worry..we r not responible.." and the diplomats will be.."mmmm..isnt his bugger tha anchor beer drinker.?oo yeah!!...mr hisap..u raised ur kris..and now people r throwing bombs..dont u think u r way out of control?

Anonymous said...

They should have brought the army in, since this is I much suspect, is foreign-infiltrated terrorism and act of (illegal) war! I really suspect this is the work of Al-Qaeda footsoldiers, especially foreign ones, who are trying to cause chaos like in Pakistan, Afghanistan and so on, and "Clash of Civilization" phenomena, so that distress non-Muslims will leave in droves out of Malaysia. Thus, I suspect, that this is to ensure al-Qaeda pure Islamic country is achievable, and ultimately to control the oil, especially in Sabah. We can notice they only target oil-rich Islamic/partly Islamic-ruled countries such as Malaysia, Indonesia, Nigeria, Sudan and Yemen, since the oil is diminishing in the Middle East! Thus, Intelligence must really be also placed in all mosques, universities, schools (a 14 year old Indian Muslim boy complaint to me that his teacher told him that speaking English is unIslamic - I have filed a formal complaint to Ministry of Education before I left Malaysia; an dthe boy fortunately now is fortunately de-brainwashed and learning English very hard) and Muslim NGOS - to save the younger generation of Malaysian Muslims from being brainwashed by vile Al-Qaeda kind of Dark age Islam, and save the non-Muslims Malaysians from being attacked and harassed unjustly, and ending up hating Malaysia and wanting to leave!

Katharina Sri (former: Noor Aza)

Germany

Anonymous said...

LOL. Don't mean this in an insulting manner, but the Malays and Muslims of Malaysia are really hilarious sometimes. Like a mix of the most insecure paranoid creatures who needs the concept of racial superiority to boost their morale.

Relax lah, Malay brothers, we love you as you are, tapi jgnlah gila agama macam Al Qaeda.

Tulang Besi said...

Anonymous said...
LOL. Don't mean this in an insulting manner, but the Malays and Muslims of Malaysia are really hilarious sometimes. Like a mix of the most insecure paranoid creatures who needs the concept of racial superiority to boost their morale.

Relax lah, Malay brothers, we love you as you are, tapi jgnlah gila agama macam Al Qaeda.
January 11, 2010 4:36 PM
.

On the contrary. The people behind these firebombings are not Islamists. They are racists (in the sense they are fighting for superiority of the Malay feudal lords).
The Islamists are the hero when it comes to this issue. They prevented the Malays from uprising to the tune of UMNO.

Tulang Besi said...

They should have brought the army in, since this is I much suspect, is foreign-infiltrated terrorism and act of (illegal) war! I really suspect this is the work of Al-Qaeda footsoldiers, especially foreign ones, who are trying to cause chaos like in Pakistan, Afghanistan and so on, and "Clash of Civilization" phenomena, so that distress non-Muslims will leave in droves out of Malaysia. Thus, I suspect, that this is to ensure al-Qaeda pure Islamic country is achievable, and ultimately to control the oil, especially in Sabah. We can notice they only target oil-rich Islamic/partly Islamic-ruled countries such as Malaysia, Indonesia, Nigeria, Sudan and Yemen, since the oil is diminishing in the Middle East! Thus, Intelligence must really be also placed in all mosques, universities, schools (a 14 year old Indian Muslim boy complaint to me that his teacher told him that speaking English is unIslamic - I have filed a formal complaint to Ministry of Education before I left Malaysia; an dthe boy fortunately now is fortunately de-brainwashed and learning English very hard) and Muslim NGOS - to save the younger generation of Malaysian Muslims from being brainwashed by vile Al-Qaeda kind of Dark age Islam, and save the non-Muslims Malaysians from being attacked and harassed unjustly, and ending up hating Malaysia and wanting to leave!

Katharina Sri (former: Noor Aza)

Germany
January 11, 2010 4:35 PM


Yeah right Katharina. And guess what, in the West, sex with boys will be legalized in the near future.

Anonymous said...

1."KOTA KINABALU: Demi keharmonian dan keselamatan negara, seorang penganut Kristian yang juga Presiden Majlis Jaksa Pendamai (JP) Malaysia, Datuk Clarence Bongkos Malakun, meminta masyarakat Kristian negara ini menggugurkan tuntutan penggunaan kalimah 'Allah'"
2.Yang dok melampau dalam isu ini ialah puak kristian hindraff jee!Ketua paderinya Pakiam!Sekulit dengan puak hindraff!!!
3.Puak yang dok murtadkan oghang melayu ialah puak kristian sebangsa dengan pakiam jugak!Yang kena pelughu kat kulim dulu,yang aktif memurtadkan oghang melayu terutama gadis-gadis melayu ialah puak kristian macam pakiam jugak!!!
4.Tak pernah degak puak kristian sabah atau sarawak yang dok murtadkan oghang islam disabah atau sarawak!!!
5.majoriti org islam terutama yang beragama islam setuju dengan proses "mengajaq" puak kristian pakiam ni!!Jangan dok naik kepala oghang islam!
6.Pemimpin politik baik pas atau umno yang dok jaja isuni!Dok salahkan sesama islam adalah ulamak atau pemimpin politik je!!!Dok mengemis undi dari puak kristian terutama puak kristian si pakiam!!
7.Syabas dan tabik pada Harun Din dalam isu ini.
8.Puak pencacai seperti TB ni adalah pencacai kapiq harbi dan pencacai puak kristian si pakiamni!!
9.Rasanya parti yang memperjuangkan hak bahawa Allah hanya untuk orang islam akan diterima oleh orang islam dan orang melayu!Tak percaya pi buat kajian terhadap orang melayu atau orang islam!Pemerhatian dan temubual dengan islam,majoriti bersetuju dengan proses "mengajar" orang kristian puak pakiam ni!!!
10.Kickdefella dah kena kapak!!Manusia seperti TBni,berfungsi sebagai pencacai kapiaq harbi dan pencacai puak kristian pakiam yang aktif murtadkan orang melayu ni nak kena apa agaknya!!!Depa kata upah kat siam RM50.00 jee!!Macam yang terjadi pada DR fernandez(kalau tak silap) yang kena peluru kat Kulim!!!
11.Bukti hubungan puak pakiam dengan kes murtad Rina Joy(nama tak pasti),depa guna,peguam yang sama!!!alahai!Kebetulanla pulak!!!!!

Anonymous said...

Tulang besi,

Hang nak tuduh UMNO buat apa? It does not matter what UMNO/PAS/PKR says because the isu on 'Allah' is beyond politics.

Tok-tok guru/tok imam/pemimpin/orang melayu kebanyakan dekat kampong-kampong dan pekan-pekan tak akan dengar cakap orang politik. Ini sudah kes perjuangan mempertahankan maruah islam dan politik dah tak pakai...

Baiknya orang-orang kristian dan pencacai kristian (macam hang dan anwar pukimak)fikir balik dan suruh mereka tarik balik tuntutan.

Kristian diMalaysia hanya minoriti tapi kita orang melayu kena ikut apa yang mereka hendak....Mereka nak berjudi, kita kasi, mereka nak beribadat, kita kasi, mereka nak minum arak, kita kasi, last-last, nama Allah pun mereka nak....

Perkataan 'Allah' pada mereka hanya perkataan lain untuk tuhan, tapi untuk kita orang melayu, ia kalimah....tak kan mereka tak boleh faham dan tiada perasaan kesian. Alasan orang Sabah/Sarawak sudah lama mengunakan perkataan Allah tidak boleh dipakai sebab kitab yang digunakan datangnya dari negara luar iaitu Indonesia. Mereka nak gunakan kitab tersebut, siapa pun tak larang tapi jangan disebabkan alasan tersebut, Malaysia kena ikut benarkan dan formalise ayat tersebut.

Taubatlah Pencacai-pencacai kristian laknatullah.

Anonymous said...

Kepada pembaca islam ,
1.Puak kristian sabah dah mengalah!
2.Puak kristian pakiam dah minta tangguh isu ini dimahkamah!
3.Depa dah ketaq lutut bila "diajaq" sikit!!!
Masalahnya:
1.Pasai apa puak pemimpin islam dok melutut kat depa!!Dok ketepi maruah islam!!Nak satu dua undi puak pakiamni jee!!!Maruah islam tercabar!Harun Din saja yang berani menongkah arus dalam Pas!!!
2.YANG PUAK PENCACAI KRISTIAN PAKIAM TERUTAMA SI TB NI!!! NAMPAK LEBIH KRISTIAN DARI ORANG KRISTIAN PAKIAM!!!!
3.kalau hangpa nak tau tentang penerimaan orang kapiq harbi ni mengenai undang-undang islam,hangpa pi jeguk blog kit siang!!!Disitu hangpa boleh tau realiti sebenaq orang kapiaq harbini tentang undang-undang islam!!!Hangpa pandai!hangpa nilai sendiri!!!TAK DAK LANGSUNG HASRAT NAK TEGAKKAN UNDANG-UNDANG ISLAM JIKA PR BERKUASA KELAK!!!
4.ISLAM NI DOK DIPERDAJAI OLEH TB!!!!Eloklah dia digelaq pencacai kapiaq harbi dan pencacai kristian pakiam!!!!Seperti mana dia dok pedajai parti PAS!!!!

Anonymous said...

"Harga padi akan diturunkan semula ke RM750/tan metrik (75 sen sekilo) pada 11hb. Januari, 2010 iaitu pada hari Isnin. 75sen sekilo adalah harga minima yang ditetapkan oleh pihak Kawal Selia Padi dan Beras Negara. (Topeng Perak)"

-ni contoh finah puak pencacai puak kapiaq harbi dan pencacai puak kristian pakiam!!!
-oghang macam puak hangni akan dilatnatullah oleh Allah!
-dah telefn bernas jam 1 tengahari tadi.Diselangor harga padi harini RM1300.00 ,1 tan.Diperlis RM1200-1300 satu tan.
-kalau perkara persepsi hang dan puak hang boleh main!Kalau fakta!!Hang akan dilatnatullah oleh ALLAH.

Anonymous said...

//Taubatlah Pencacai-pencacai kristian laknatullah.//

fooh..pariatullah masih k0te keraih!..cepat panggil doktor woi!

Anonymous said...

The torching of the churches is a real eye-opener. The scenario seems to go along like this:

1. The ruling party is facing a long list of dubious issues, some carried-over from earlier days (the woman-we-cannot-name + theft of jet engines + submarine deals), PKFZ and new ones created recently (TBH case).

2. The ruling party is desperate to claim back Selangor.

3. The warlords are angry PR broke their rice-bowl in Selangor, ie no nore contracts from state govt, esp developers handing over bag$ful of ca$h for land + contracts.

4. PAS under the advise of Tok Guru Nik Aziz has steadfastly refused to collaborate with UMNO, thus forcing UMNO to create new image to become both Champion of Malays + Islam. PAS is the only true Islamic party which puts Islamic values above the race, as true followers know the teachings are fair to all regardless of caste, creed, race. UMNO, knowing they have lost majority non-Malays votes, desperately needs to gain back the Malay votes. What better way than to claim ownership of Juara Islam too??

5. They continue to create diversion; bring DSAI to court re: Sodomy 2, accuse DAP leaders of corruption (how many thousands, that also spent on the constituency???), even try to accuse Tok Guru of corruption after Tok spurned their collaboration advances!!

6. Thus in the desparation to cover the corruption + deaths of the innocents as well as to capture back the state, they must stage some violent demos. Part 1: drag the cow head to state assembly building, but they didn't get the expected retaliation response (ok, they won Teluk Kemang), Part 2: Use the 'Allah name' ruling and flame up the racists, throw in some ideas of big demos after Friday payers. At last, someone even torch the churches!!

7. It's a very silly thing to do, Christians have been persecuted for the last 2000 years, first by the Romans, then the Protestants by the Catholic Romans, and yet their believe survives till this day. They normally don retaliate. The evangelicals are all very lovey-dovey and will surely tell the perpetrators that Jesus still loves them despite their actions if they meet these villians!!

8. Looks like they overestimate their strategy and underestimate the Rakyat. Most community leaders, except those with their unbilical cords tied to UMNO, are condemning the actions and asking for solidarity alongside the Christian communities. They had to do some damage control publicity, fork-out RM500k for the Metro Church to buy some peace.

9. Now, they look really bad. Sarawak state elections are also coming up, the Chief minister already summoned his son back to the state and start campaigning. How? Lose another state?? Now, really big damage control drive. Disbursing more money, many millions, for pembangunan to Sabah & Sarawak via their ADUNs. They're also taking 400,000 unclaimed MYKads to be delivered by the police + govt agency, esp for those in pendalaman!! 400,000 is a lot of votes!!

10. This torching job was done with Molotov cocktail. Very common among certain rempits. The whole thing was conceived and ordered by certain opportunistic bigots. Carried out by their goons on motorbikes. So, it's not Islamists vs Christians, it's extremists vs the whole Community!

We will never know for sure who is the real mastermind behind it. No need to speculate, the only way forward is to change the government!

And for those who are writing comments here or elsewhere, please keep some civility and don swear. Respect your religion and your mother even if you don respect the blog owner. I'm sure your mother didn't teach you to write like that!

donplayplay

Anonymous said...

"And for those who are writing comments here or elsewhere, please keep some civility and don swear. Respect your religion and your mother even if you don respect the blog owner. I'm sure your mother didn't teach you to write like that!"

donplayplay

-orang berbudi kita berbahasa,oghang memberi kita merasa!.
-bab agama islam,jangan sapa dok main-main!!!!Tak mengira mana-mana parti politik!!

Anonymous said...

Maafla,dulu aku kesian kat TB tapi semenjak:
1.Bila dia dok memecahbelahkan sesama islam,sesama pas aku tak dapat terima!
2.Bila dia dok angkat puak kapiaq harbi melebihi oghang islam ,tiada maaf pada dia!
3.Bila dia dok pertahan puak kristian pakiam yang mempunyai maksud yang tersirat!Awas dia!
4.Bila dia dok kelentong oghang islam,tentang perlaksanaan hukum islam sedangkan dia tahu realiti sebenarnya bila/jika PR memerintah!!!Pemfitnahlah dia!!
5.Apa jenis dia!Yang selalu melaung-laungkan sebagai pejuang islam !!!!!

zakwan said...

As a Malay Muslim, it's hard 2 think that fellow Malay Muslims r not behind these string of church attacks

Malay Muslims demolished Masjid Bujal in Terengganu n Surau Kampung Berembang in Selangor

Malay Muslim police shoot tear gases into protestors(BERSIH,anti PPSMI,anti ISA rally) seeking refuge inside the National Mosque

Malay Muslims who on the month of Ramadhan last year,marched 2 the Selangor state secretariat building wit a severed cow head protesting the relocation of a Hindu Temple in Section 23, wit the cow head 2 be delivered 2 Dr. Xavier(the guys's a Christian)

Malay Muslim demolished a Hindu Temple in Klang days prior 2 Deepavali which incurred the wrath of Indians n led 2 the formation of Hindraf

What I'm saying is that we,Malay Muslims hav a bad track record when it comes 2 rumah ibadat matters

MALAYSIABARU said...

CHECK OUT AT WWW.MALAYSIABARU.COM,

NAJIB IS MAKING MALAYSIA INTO A MORE AND MORE STUPID COUNTRY...

A RENOWN STUPID COUNTRY, THE LIST GOES ON....

once this thing gets out of control, the share market is going to crash like never before....

telur dua said...

I think most Malaysians generally acted in an appropriate manner this time. We as a people have grown up.

No doubt the agents provocateur and their sponsors would like to see terror and mayhem as a diversion so that they can continue looting the country on the sly and openly. Those jet engines aren't exactly the size of a bottle of jam.

Syabas, Malaysians. Now what we need is a new Govt. 50 years of rubbish is enough.

Anonymous said...

About time we borrow Bangladesh's experiment which worked very well between 2006-2009.over 84k haramjadah politicians,terrorists,smugglers were arrested and some were also shot..sapu bersih by that countries elite forces..even interpol turun memebantu to hunt down para pukimaks who syphoned money overseas..now very tenteram in that country..we should do the same thing here..puak iblis will go all out to bikin more kecoh..drastic measures r very necessary now!

Anonymous said...

Puak iblis oredi syphoned trillion of RM..covert gay sado machoist malayali chunny kutty Mahthir over RM100billion..his gay partner Damned Zainuddin over 60 billiob..ini dua cok suckers close to 200 billion..what about nachibai and his cronies and other para dayus?..plus they bikin violence pulak..kunoonya..Allah tak boleh pake bla bla bla.puak iblis got only 1 dharma..they only have the desire to enslve peopel,grab their souls,turn them in2 zombies,so that they can rule forver..hitler tried,stalin tried,mao tried..all three of them gone..poofed. eventho those 3 were very dangerous iblis..nachibai n geng r mere farts..so,intervention now b4 it's too late!!

Anonymous said...

Puak iblis oredi syphoned trillion of RM..covert gay sado machoist malayali chunny kutty Mahthir over RM100billion..his gay partner Damned Zainuddin over 60 billiob..ini dua cok suckers close to 200 billion..what about nachibai and his cronies and other para dayus?..plus they bikin violence pulak..kunoonya..Allah tak boleh pake bla bla bla.puak iblis got only 1 dharma..they only have the desire to enslve peopel,grab their souls,turn them in2 zombies,so that they can rule forver..hitler tried,stalin tried,mao tried..all three of them gone..poofed. eventho those 3 were very dangerous iblis..nachibai n geng r mere farts..so,intervention now b4 it's too late!!

Abd Razak said...

ada gak org bodoh yg percaya ngan batu api ngan songkok putih yg mmg xde maruah dh...di kalangan blogger pn diorang berada di tahap yg terendah sekali...maknanya kalau ada org bodoh cam ko percaya lg xtau le nk ckp apa...bebal kuasa lapan kot...

Anonymous said...

Hi all the stupid UMNO cyber troopers - You all are the real silly and blind UMNO supporters who had ignorantly sold your very soul to the UMNO devils for just a few dimes. Beware!!! the very people who wear long white robe and cap from UMNO. They are the the foxes with the clothing of sheep, somewhat failed to hide their bushy tails.
Demi ALLAH, Saudara Troopers sekelian,
"Sedarlah diri dan elok lah bertaubat sebelum dineraka nanti kau disebat".

Anonymous said...

@Tulang Besi: "Yeah right Katharina. And guess what, in the West, sex with boys will be legalized in the near future."

Hey Tulang Besi, what peopple do in their private lives is between them and God, do you understand! You think you and the rest of "celupar" Islamists here, who are obviously uncivilized, with all the "bahasa lucah" (sex is always on your minds, isn't it you Islamist perverts - no wonder they have many wives like crazy sex maniacs including in caves like Osama bin Laden & the Talebans there!) are God or something? Hey, I have a question for you, since celupar Islamists like you love to harass and mengintip/spy Muslims and non-Muslims in their private lives under sharia 'law', how come you don't demand sharia 'law' for Muslim rapists and murderers (who made the majority murederers and rapists in Malaysia by the way - I wonder why?!) and coward wives beaters like the sex-maniac Datuk ex-husband of singer Noranizah Idris?

Grand Marquis said...

Petikan Kenyataan Media DSAI

Excerpt:
Kami mengecam serangan ke atas saudara kami penganut agama Kristian dan ke atas beberapa gereja di Malaysia.

Cuba kita cari dalam Quran, Hadith (Sahih dan Tak Sahih) dan kalam ulama mana yang ada kata kita orang Islam bersaudara dengan Kristian.

Kita seharusnya sedar Tuhan yang kita sembah merupakan, Tuhan yang sama, Allah SWT, Tuhan yang memelihara dan mentadbirkan sekalian alam

Adakah orang Islam menyembah Tuhan yang sama dengan orang kristian (sekalipun dikatakan kedua-duanya sama dalam mentadbir sekalian alam)? Tuhan orang Islam maha esa, tidak beranak dan tidak diperanakkan. Tuhan orang kristian ada anak, jadi apakah sama Tuhan orang Islam dengan Tuhan orang kristian?

Welcome to pluralism.

Anonymous said...

Sebening subuh...
Kami mengecam serangan ke atas saudara kami penganut agama Kristian dan ke atas beberapa gereja di Malaysia.-anauar ibrahim

1.Nabi Muhammad S.A.W adalah rasul terakhir.
2.Agama Islam adalah adalah agama samawi terakhir.
3.Agama kristian di Eropah lebih kepada budaya sekarang!Puak kristian disana mengaku sebagai pengikut,tapi amalan depa!!!!Gereja kosong!!Last sekali tinggai paderi jeee!!Yang meriah bila ada majlis kahwin jeee!!!
4.Yang dok lebih-lebih puak kristian pakiam.Botoi bersepah-sepah!!!Mata meghah memanjang!!!!!
3.Fikir dan renung bersama!

Anonymous said...

...alahai lupala pulak...
1.Pasai apa kita sanggup memperlekehkan kerasulan Nabi Muhammad S.A.W!Baginda adalah rasul terakhir!Diutuskan oleh Allah untuk membawa agama Islam kedunia MENGGANTIKLAN agama samawi terdahulu!!
2.Kalau puak kristian jujur dan bertakwa kepada Allah,dah lama depa masuk Islam!!!Dalam Bibble yang asli dah dijelaskan oleh Allah mengenai kewujudan Nabi Muhammad S.A.W!
3.BMW sanggup menarik balik beberapa model terdahulu yang mempunyai masalah "makanikal" yang
boleh membahayakan pengguna BMW!Perkenal model BMW yang baru!!Ganti percuma!Yang lebih canggih dan selamat!Ada puak yang tak mau model baru BMW tu!Nak pakai BMW lama jugak!!!Dok jaja sana,sini BMW lama selamat dan setaraf atau lebih baik dari BMW yang baru!!!!

casper c said...

I admire your gumption TB and as per usual, your detractors come in many forms ie.from within PAS, UMNO Cyber Rempits, radical Muslims etc but in the same breath I believe many M'sians would see a friend in you.

Stay the course no matter the opposition, the unkind words, uncivilized comments and down right bigoted opinions. Yours has been an important post that will go a long ways(together with others) to shape the future of M'sia.

Seeing is believing but for the many posters we find in M'sia Waves, it is hard to predict the true numbers ie. those truly in support of UMNO because any one, even with limited intellect, would steer clear of UMNO's propaganda.

Many have come to realise what a destructive force UMNO has been and conceivably, the attempts of arson since Friday has cause UMNO to lose support within the community. Perhaps the "brains" behind the chaos didn't factor in the lost of East M'sia as a consequence from burning churches ?

Yes, the ground is shifting and thanks to the mindless actions of lunatics, the fight to rid M'sia of UMNO's rule is made easier when lunatics shoot themselves in the foot.

Take care TB and regards to all.

Anonymous said...

GM, Awak memang ada sakit otak, satu pertanyaan-kalau sekiranya apa yang kau katakan itu bahawa Islam tidak menganggap semua orang yang bukan beragama islam itu bukan saudara, Jadi keturunana Adam dan Hawa hanyalah orang yang beragama Islam?

muhammad said...

Grand Marquis (dan juak2 umno yg lain),

Go read up on comparative religion and theology. Or talk to non-Muslims a bit.Samada awak tak faham, atau buat2 tak faham.

Either way, your statement is just embarrassing.

Anonymous said...

Wow. The smoking gun! UMNO is involved to the hilt. No doubt about it.

Anonymous said...

Grand Marquis said...
Petikan Kenyataan Media DSAI

Excerpt:
Kami mengecam serangan ke atas saudara kami penganut agama Kristian dan ke atas beberapa gereja di Malaysia.

Cuba kita cari dalam Quran, Hadith (Sahih dan Tak Sahih) dan kalam ulama mana yang ada kata kita orang Islam bersaudara dengan Kristian.

Kita seharusnya sedar Tuhan yang kita sembah merupakan, Tuhan yang sama, Allah SWT, Tuhan yang memelihara dan mentadbirkan sekalian alam

Adakah orang Islam menyembah Tuhan yang sama dengan orang kristian (sekalipun dikatakan kedua-duanya sama dalam mentadbir sekalian alam)? Tuhan orang Islam maha esa, tidak beranak dan tidak diperanakkan. Tuhan orang kristian ada anak, jadi apakah sama Tuhan orang Islam dengan Tuhan orang kristian?

Welcome to pluralism.
.

Adkaah Grand Moron mengatakan orang Kristian dan Yahudi menyembah tuhan yang lain dari tuhan orang Islam? Bolehkah Grand Moron membuktikannya?

Grand Marquis said...

Kepada Muhammad,

Saya harap awak ikut saranan saya. Cari dalam Quran dan Hadith (Hadith tak sahih pun tak pe) sekiranya anda boleh jumpa Allah S.W.T. atau Nabi Muhammad S.A.W. mengatakan orang Islam dan Kristian bersaudara. Kemudian kita bincang.

Kepada Anon 12:27, tak faham kah apa yang saya tulis?

Saya kata Tuhan orang Islam itu maha esa, tidak beranak dan diperanakkan. Tuhan orang Kristian ada anak anak tuhan pula ada bapa, lepas tu ada pulak ruh kudus. Apakah ini dikatakan sama?

Anonymous said...

Saya kata Tuhan orang Islam itu maha esa, tidak beranak dan diperanakkan. Tuhan orang Kristian ada anak anak tuhan pula ada bapa, lepas tu ada pulak ruh kudus. Apakah ini dikatakan sama?.

Patutlah nama kau Grand Moron. Tuhan orang Kristian sama dengan tuhan orang Islam. Tiada perbezaan. Cumanya, mereka kata Nabi Isa itu adalah ANAK TUHAN dan Jibril juga ada PENJELMAAN TUHAN.
Tapi, Tuhan tetap tuhan yang sama yakni Allah.

Kau tak payah nak ambik Surah Al IKhlas la. Loya tekak aku baca. Orang macam kau yang halalkan judi dan arak, nak mengaku Allah tu tuhan kau. GEli tekak aku.

muhammad said...

"Cari dalam Quran dan Hadith (Hadith tak sahih pun tak pe) sekiranya anda boleh jumpa Allah S.W.T. atau Nabi Muhammad S.A.W. mengatakan orang Islam dan Kristian bersaudara. orang Islam dan Kristian bersaudara."

Tiba2 nak pakai nas pulak ye?

Jadi, jika tidak disebut dalam Quran dan Hadis, tidak boleh, begitukah?

Ok, cuba kita ganti bahagian ayat hujung tu dengan ini:

Cari dalam Quran dan Hadith (Hadith tak sahih pun tak pe) sekiranya anda boleh jumpa Allah S.W.T. atau Nabi Muhammad S.A.W. mengatakan ORANG MELAYU LEBIH BAIK DARI ORANG BUKAN MELAYU. Kemudian kita bincang.

Amacam, ada bukti?

muhammad said...

Katakanlah (wahai Muhammad): “Wahai Ahli Kitab, marilah kepada satu Kalimah yang bersamaan antara kami dengan kamu, iaitu kita semua tidak menyembah melainkan Allah. ” (Ali-Imran, 3:64)

Sesungguhnya telah kafirlah orang-orang yang berkata: "sesungguhnya Allah ialah Al Masih putera Maryam".
(Al-Maaidah 5:72)

Sesungguhnya kafirlah orang-orang yang mengatakan 'Bahwasanya Allah salah satu dari yang tiga', padahal sekali-kali tidak ada Tuhan selain Tuhan yang Esa".
(Al-Maaidah 5:73)

“Dan jika engkau bertanya kepada mereka ‘Siapakah yang menciptakan mereka ?’ nescaya mereka akan menjawab Allah.” (Az-Zukhruf 43: 87)


“Katakanlah, ‘Siapakah yang memberi rezeki kepadamu dari langit dan bumi, atau siapakah yang kuasa ( menciptakan) pendengaran dan penglihatan, dan siapakah yang mengeluarkan yang hidup dari yang mati dan yang mengeluarkan yang mati dari yang hidup dan siapakah yang mengatur segala urusan ?’ Pasti mereka akan menjawab : ’Allah’. Maka katakanlah, ‘mengapa engkau tidak mahu bertakwa (kepada-Nya)”
(Yunus 10: 31)

Ayat Quran ini menunjukkan Quran sendiri MENGAKUI penggunaan nama Allah oleh bukan Islam.

Jadi, Grand Marquis, menggunakan kaedah awak, cari dalam Quran dan Hadith (Hadith tak sahih pun tak pe) sekiranya anda boleh jumpa Allah S.W.T. atau Nabi Muhammad S.A.W. mengatakan ORANG BUKAN ISLAM DILARANG MENGGUNAKAN NAMA ALLAH.

Grand Marquis said...

Kepada Muhammad,

Menggunakan nama Allah itu isu lain. Itu saya malas nak bincang.

Sekarang ni ada mamat kata Tuhan orang Islam sama dengan Tuhan orang Kristian.

Kenapa kafir orang kristian kalau betul tuhan yang mereka sembah itu sama dengan tuhan orang Islam?

Jawapannya saya ambil balik ayat yang awak guna

Sesungguhnya telah kafirlah orang-orang yang berkata: "sesungguhnya Allah ialah Al Masih putera Maryam".
(Al-Maaidah 5:72)


Saya bagi analogi mudah. 2 orang merujuk pada seorang yang bernama Mat. Seorang kata Mat tiada anak, seorang kata Mat ada anak. Jadi adakah Mat yang sama yang menjadi rujukan 2 orang ini?

---------------------------
Ada mamat ni kata orang Kristian ni saudara orang Islam. Saya suruh dia cari dimanakah dalam Al-Quran kata orang Kristian ni saudara orang Islam.

Bila dah tak jumpa adakah kita boleh terus buat kesimpulan yang orang Kristian ni saudara orang Islam?

Kemudian kata Muhammad
Cari dalam Quran dan Hadith (Hadith tak sahih pun tak pe) sekiranya anda boleh jumpa Allah S.W.T. atau Nabi Muhammad S.A.W. mengatakan ORANG MELAYU LEBIH BAIK DARI ORANG BUKAN MELAYU.

Saya kata tak de. Tapi adakah kerana tak de disebut bermakna orang Melayu ni lebih buruk dari orang bukan Melayu?

muhammad said...

"Menggunakan nama Allah itu isu lain. Itu saya malas nak bincang."

Kenapa tidak? Ini yang menjadi punca permasalahan, bukan?

"Saya bagi analogi mudah. 2 orang merujuk pada seorang yang bernama Mat. Seorang kata Mat tiada anak, seorang kata Mat ada anak. Jadi adakah Mat yang sama yang menjadi rujukan 2 orang ini?"

Analogi kurang tepat. Pernah dengar kan, analogi sekumpulan orang buta dengan gajah? Semuanya merujuk pada gajah yang sama.

Ayat2 Quran yang saya petik sebelum ini lebih dari cukup untuk membuktikan bahawa perkataan Allah memang diguna pakai oleh bukan Islam untuk merujuk pada Tuhan yang mereka sembah, walaupun konsep kepercayaan mereka berbeza.

Menggunakan Surah al-Ikhlas SAHAJA dan tidak menyebut ayat2 tersebut menunjukkan pemahaman yang tidak lengkap. Sebab tu saya suruh baca lagi tentang comparative religioon dan theology.

"Ada mamat ni kata orang Kristian ni saudara orang Islam. Saya suruh dia cari dimanakah dalam Al-Quran kata orang Kristian ni saudara orang Islam.

Bila dah tak jumpa adakah kita boleh terus buat kesimpulan yang orang Kristian ni saudara orang Islam?"

Perkataan "saudara" faham dalam konteks lah sedara. Jika guna logik dalam hujah sebelum ini, jika bukan saudara, apa? Musuh?

"Cari dalam Quran dan Hadith (Hadith tak sahih pun tak pe) sekiranya anda boleh jumpa Allah S.W.T. atau Nabi Muhammad S.A.W. mengatakan ORANG MELAYU LEBIH BAIK DARI ORANG BUKAN MELAYU.

Saya kata tak de. Tapi adakah kerana tak de disebut bermakna orang Melayu ni lebih buruk dari orang bukan Melayu?"

Tahu pun tak de. Siapa pulak kata lebih buruk? Dan selama ini pihak mana yang selalu mencanangkan kelebihan sesuatu bangsa berbanding bangsa lain?

Anda tahu jawapannya, bukan?

muhammad said...

Another angle to this argument:

"Saya bagi analogi mudah. 2 orang merujuk pada seorang yang bernama Mat. Seorang kata Mat tiada anak, seorang kata Mat ada anak. Jadi adakah Mat yang sama yang menjadi rujukan 2 orang ini?"

Mungkin ya, jika kita ambil kira kepelbagaian sumber dan kemungkinan salah satu sumber itu berbohong.

Mungkin satu sumber berbohong mengatakan Mat ada anak untuk kepentingan tertentu. Tak terfikirkah awak bahawa kita mungkin bercakap tentang ORANG YANG SAMA?

Grand Marquis said...

Analogi kurang tepat. Pernah dengar kan, analogi sekumpulan orang buta dengan gajah? Semuanya merujuk pada gajah yang sama.

Analogi ini lagi kurang tepat. Orang buta pegang gajah yang sama, ada belalai, ada 4 kaki, ekor, 2 gading dan 2 telinga besar.

Macam mana pula tiba-tiba ada seorang buta kata ada sayap? Adakah itu boleh dikira gajah lagi?


Ayat2 Quran yang saya petik sebelum ini lebih dari cukup untuk membuktikan bahawa perkataan Allah memang diguna pakai oleh bukan Islam untuk merujuk pada Tuhan yang mereka sembah, walaupun konsep kepercayaan mereka berbeza.


Persoalannya ialah kenapa orang musyrikin tak namakan salah satu dari berhala mereka dengan nama Allah?

Saya ada jawapan terhadap isu ini, cuma buat masa ni malas nak pen it down.

Perkataan "saudara" faham dalam konteks lah sedara. Jika guna logik dalam hujah sebelum ini, jika bukan saudara, apa? Musuh?

kalau bukan saudara boleh jadi kawan, boleh jadi college, boleh jadi partner dalam business, boleh jadi macam-macam lagi.

Kalau isu saudara ni tak penting, mengapa dalam Quran disebut secara khusus sesungguhnya orang Islam itu Bersaudara?

Tahu pun tak de. Siapa pulak kata lebih buruk? Dan selama ini pihak mana yang selalu mencanangkan kelebihan sesuatu bangsa berbanding bangsa lain?

Jadi kalau tak de tak boleh kata lebih buruk, bermakna kalau tak disebut orang kristian ni saudara orang Islam, kita tak boleh pandai-pandai pergi kata orang kristian ni saudara orang Islam. Agree?

Saya tak taupun ada orang Melayu kata bangsanya ada kelebihan dari bangsa lain. Ini adalah tuduhan awak yang tidak berasas. Yang dikatakan kelebihan ialah kerana orang Melayu sebagai penduduk asal negara ni maka mereka mempunyai hak istimewa tertentu. Itu saja.

Anonymous said...


Persoalannya ialah kenapa orang musyrikin tak namakan salah satu dari berhala mereka dengan nama Allah?

Saya ada jawapan terhadap isu ini, cuma buat masa ni malas nak pen it down.
.

kalau kau tulis pun ia akan jadi jawapan bodoh jugak.

Macam kau tulis kat atas ni lah. Inilah soalan paling bodoh yang tak pernah aku dengar.

Anonymous said...

Saya tak taupun ada orang Melayu kata bangsanya ada kelebihan dari bangsa lain. Ini adalah tuduhan awak yang tidak berasas. Yang dikatakan kelebihan ialah kerana orang Melayu sebagai penduduk asal negara ni maka mereka mempunyai hak istimewa tertentu. Itu saja..

Selagi UMNO memerintah orang Melayu, selagi itu orang Melayu tidak akan ada apa2 untuk dibanggakan.

muhammad said...

"Analogi kurang tepat. Pernah dengar kan, analogi sekumpulan orang buta dengan gajah? Semuanya merujuk pada gajah yang sama.

Analogi ini lagi kurang tepat. Orang buta pegang gajah yang sama, ada belalai, ada 4 kaki, ekor, 2 gading dan 2 telinga besar.

Macam mana pula tiba-tiba ada seorang buta kata ada sayap? Adakah itu boleh dikira gajah lagi?
.

Maaflah. Silap saya mengandaikan awak pernah dengar analogi ini.

Err, ada sapa2 sebut sayap ke?

But seriously, I'm disappointed. I thought you are one of the more thoughtful ones (among umno supporters - and that's saying a lot). Do yourself a favour and READ UP ON COMPARATIVE RELIGION AND THEOLOGY. Nampak sangatlah awak tak familiar dgn perbandingan ini.

"Persoalannya ialah kenapa orang musyrikin tak namakan salah satu dari berhala mereka dengan nama Allah?"

Anon sebelum saya dah point out betapa dangkalnya jawapan ini. Go read Islamic history, will you?

"Saya ada jawapan terhadap isu ini, cuma buat masa ni malas nak pen it down."

Hmm. Masa saya berdialog dgn "sahabat kanan" pun ada juga dia sebut mcm ni. Memang stail org umno kot. Sampai ke sudah tak cakap. Tapi takpe, I'm waiting.


"kalau bukan saudara boleh jadi kawan, boleh jadi college, boleh jadi partner dalam business, boleh jadi macam-macam lagi.

Kalau isu saudara ni tak penting, mengapa dalam Quran disebut secara khusus sesungguhnya orang Islam itu Bersaudara?"

Dari segi kepercayaan, sebenarnya memang banyak persamaan antara Islam dan Kristian dan juga Judaism. Ia dipanggil Abrahamic faiths. In fact Islam and orthodox Judaism have a lot more in common than most people seem to think. Tapi Quran ada menyebut we Muslims have closer affinity with Christians although the difference is more significant.

A little background is VERY important. Taklah nampak kita ignorant sangat, saudara.

"Jadi kalau tak de tak boleh kata lebih buruk, bermakna kalau tak disebut orang kristian ni saudara orang Islam, kita tak boleh pandai-pandai pergi kata orang kristian ni saudara orang Islam. Agree?"

Buat research sikit, baca berapa banyak muslim scholars dan leaders yang guna perkataan tu.

Janganlah sebab Anwar guna istilah tu dijadikan alasan untuk menghentam pula. Tahulah umno totok tu semuanya anti-Anwar.

"Saya tak taupun ada orang Melayu kata bangsanya ada kelebihan dari bangsa lain. Ini adalah tuduhan awak yang tidak berasas."

Betulkah begitu? Dah lama tak baca Utusan ke?

"Yang dikatakan kelebihan ialah kerana orang Melayu sebagai penduduk asal negara ni maka mereka mempunyai hak istimewa tertentu. Itu saja."

See above.

Grand Marquis said...

Maaflah. Silap saya mengandaikan awak pernah dengar analogi ini.

Err, ada sapa2 sebut sayap ke?


Saya pernah dengar analogi ini. Setahu saya, analogi ini juga digunakan oleh puak-puak liberal di Indonesia bagai mengatakan semua agama adalah sama. Mereka umpamakan Tuhan ni macam gajah dan pengikut agama ni walaupun cara ibadat dan kefahaman terhadap tuhan berbeza, mereka ini umpama orang buta yang pegang gajah yang sama.

Saya tak lihat awak ni menjawab apa-apa soalan yang saya kemukakan kecuali hanya kata dissapointed with your thought, suruh orang baca comparative religion, kata ini dangkal, itu dangkal tapi tak bagi tau apa yang dangkalnya dan apa hujah awak nak kata ia dangkal.

Saya tak mau tulis pandangan saya tentang isu nama Allah ini sebab saya tak rasa ia akan mengubah apa-apa persepsi yang telah terbina.

Dari segi kepercayaan, sebenarnya memang banyak persamaan antara Islam dan Kristian dan juga Judaism. Ia dipanggil Abrahamic faiths. In fact Islam and orthodox Judaism have a lot more in common than most people seem to think. Tapi Quran ada menyebut we Muslims have closer affinity with Christians although the difference is more significant.

Betul. Ini saya pun tau. Tapi untuk kita secara semberono mendakwa Kristian sebagai saudara kita, ia perlu kepada dalil syarak.

Sedangkan persaudaraan sesama orang Islam berdalil kepada al-Quran yang mana Allah S.W.T. menyebut dalam al-Quran sesungguhnya orang Islam itu bersaudara (49:10), apakah kelebihan orang kristian ini lebih hebat dari orang Islam sehinggakan persaudaraan mereka dengan orang Islam tidak perlu kepada dalil?

A little background is VERY important. Taklah nampak kita ignorant sangat, saudara.

Kalau ada point, turunkan, ini tidak, asyik kata orang ignorant, tapi tak nampak pun apa hujah awak.

Buat research sikit, baca berapa banyak muslim scholars dan leaders yang guna perkataan tu.

Sama juga. Tak jawab soalan, tapi suruh orang buat research.

Janganlah sebab Anwar guna istilah tu dijadikan alasan untuk menghentam pula. Tahulah umno totok tu semuanya anti-Anwar.

Saya hentam bukan kerana dia Anwar, tapi dia mengatakan satu perkara yang salah apatah kesalahan itu melibatkan isu agama.

Betulkah begitu? Dah lama tak baca Utusan ke?

Sila bagi contoh dari Utusan yang mengatakan orang Melayu ni adalah superior race dari bangsa lain. Atau mungkin ini yang anda maksudkan.

muhammad said...

"Saya pernah dengar analogi ini. Setahu saya, analogi ini juga digunakan oleh puak-puak liberal di Indonesia bagai mengatakan semua agama adalah sama. Mereka umpamakan Tuhan ni macam gajah dan pengikut agama ni walaupun cara ibadat dan kefahaman terhadap tuhan berbeza, mereka ini umpama orang buta yang pegang gajah yang sama."

Jangan sempitkan pemahaman. al-Ghazali dan Jalaluddin Rumi telah pun menggunakan analogi ini.

Perhatikan analogi itu bukan semestinya digunakan untuk mengatakan semua agama sama, dan saya pun tak bermaksud begitu.

Point saya adalah perbezaan perspektif bukan semestinya bermakna kita bercakap tentang sesuatu yg berbeza. Analogi "Mat" awak sendiri telah saya gunakan.

"Saya tak lihat awak ni menjawab apa-apa soalan yang saya kemukakan kecuali hanya kata dissapointed with your thought, suruh orang baca comparative religion, kata ini dangkal, itu dangkal tapi tak bagi tau apa yang dangkalnya dan apa hujah awak nak kata ia dangkal."

Saya menjawab sebaik mungkin, dengan constraint yg ada. Samada saya jawab soalan tu atau tidak, terserahlah pada pembaca. Masalahnya reply awak sebelum ni tak menunjukkan awak faham konsep comparative religion, atau awareness yg Quran sendiri menyebut tentang penggunaan nama Allah oleh org bukan Islam. Saya tak kata awak tak faham, tapi NAMPAK macam tak faham. Faham kan?

Kalau tak silap saya, saya sebut "dangkal" tu sekali je. Have i touched a nerve?

"Kalau ada point, turunkan, ini tidak, asyik kata orang ignorant, tapi tak nampak pun apa hujah awak."

Ayat Quran tu bukan point?
Berapa kali saya sebut ignorant?

"Buat research sikit, baca berapa banyak muslim scholars dan leaders yang guna perkataan tu.

Sama juga. Tak jawab soalan, tapi suruh orang buat research."

Bagi saya lebih baik dapat maklumat dgn mencari dan memahami sendiri. Lebih baiklah dari perli2. Bukannya susah. Google ada. Dan lebih baiklah dari kata ada maklumat, tapi tak mau tulis pun.

Tapi takpelah:

"Sheikh Tantawi said government appointments are made on the basis of merit, not on sectarian considerations. "I can say that in Egypt there are Christian cabinet ministers, university professors, etc. In the Egyptian government apparatus there are Christians, each in accordance with their ability and specialty. If the statistics show an underrepresentation of our Christian brothers, I am one of the Muslim religious leaders who are ready to stand beside them in all truth, honesty and courage."

http://www.wrmea.com/backissues/0395/9503049.htm

"Saya hentam bukan kerana dia Anwar, tapi dia mengatakan satu perkara yang salah apatah kesalahan itu melibatkan isu agama."

Yalah tu. Sekarang tunjukkan dalil yg mengatakan menggunakan perkataan "saudara" itu salah.

Masih nak kata saya tak menjawab soalan?

muhammad said...

Artikel Utusan itu adalah artikel apologetik tentang konsep Ketuanan Melayu yg mereka war-warkan selama ini.

Bagi saya, Ketuanan Melayu tak jauh bezanya dgn perjuangan KKK di US. Tukar language, setting dgn outfit je.

Sebab anda nampaknya sangat mementingkan dalil, sila tunjukkan dalil dari Quran atau Sunnah yg justify konsep Ketuanan Melayu.

Grand Marquis said...

Yalah tu. Sekarang tunjukkan dalil yg mengatakan menggunakan perkataan "saudara" itu salah.

Apabila Quran mengatakan orang Islam itu bersaudara, maka siapa-siapa yang kata orang Islam itu tidak bersaudara, maka dia salah.

Apabila Quran tidak mengatakan orang Islam itu bersaudara dengan orang Kristian, maka siapa-siapa yang pandai-pandai kata orang Islam bersaudara dengan Kristian, maka dia salah.

Kalau mahu detail lagi, kena jawab dulu, adakah hukum persaudaraan ini termasuk dalam urusan syarak atau urusan duniawi? Bila dah jawab ni, baru kita boleh nak decide.

Artikel Utusan itu adalah artikel apologetik tentang konsep Ketuanan Melayu yg mereka war-warkan selama ini.

Bagi saya, Ketuanan Melayu tak jauh bezanya dgn perjuangan KKK di US. Tukar language, setting dgn outfit je.


Ini adalah pesepsi awak. Apa faktanya? Pernahkah awak tengok orang Melayu buat bangsa lain dinegara ini macam KKK buat pada orang bukan kulit putih di America? Kalau awak ni orang Melayu, saya rasa amat malu dengan diri awak sebab sanggup memburukkan bangsa awak sendiri dengan sedemikian rupa tanpa berasaskan fakta sebenar, padahal semua orang tahu orang bukan Melayu hidup dengan aman dan harmoni di Malaysia.

muhammad said...

"Apabila Quran mengatakan orang Islam itu bersaudara, maka siapa-siapa yang kata orang Islam itu tidak bersaudara, maka dia salah."

Ada sesiapa kata begini?

"Apabila Quran tidak mengatakan orang Islam itu bersaudara dengan orang Kristian, maka siapa-siapa yang pandai-pandai kata orang Islam bersaudara dengan Kristian, maka dia salah.

Kalau mahu detail lagi, kena jawab dulu, adakah hukum persaudaraan ini termasuk dalam urusan syarak atau urusan duniawi? Bila dah jawab ni, baru kita boleh nak decide."

Awak kata saya tak jawab soalan. Saya tunjukkan quote dari Sheikh Tantawi. Saya mintak awak tunjukkan dalil yg mengatakan menggunakan perkataan "saudara" itu salah. Awak belum buat begitu.

"Ini adalah pesepsi awak. Apa faktanya? Pernahkah awak tengok orang Melayu buat bangsa lain dinegara ini macam KKK buat pada orang bukan kulit putih di America? "

Ya, itu memang persepsi saya. Awak nak sangkal pun takde masalah. Pendapat saya bukan berdasarkan tindakan, tetapi prinsip di sebalik konsep Ketuanan Melayu - racial supremacy.

Saya minta awak tunjukkan dalil syarak ttg basis untuk Ketuanan Melayu. Awak belum buat begitu.

"Kalau awak ni orang Melayu, saya rasa amat malu dengan diri awak sebab sanggup memburukkan bangsa awak sendiri dengan sedemikian rupa tanpa berasaskan fakta sebenar, padahal semua orang tahu orang bukan Melayu hidup dengan aman dan harmoni di Malaysia."

Jawapan ala2 che det:

1. Saya memang Melayu.
2. Terima kasihlah susah2 nak malu untuk saya. Terharu pula.
3. Tunjukkan di mana saya memburukkan bangsa sendiri.
4. Yang saya kritik adalah konsep Ketuanan Melayu. Tolong bezakan.

Awak tuduh saya tak menjawab soalan. Follow your own advice dan jawab soalan2 saya sebelum ni:

Tunjukkan dalil yg mengatakan menggunakan perkataan "saudara" itu salah.

Tunjukkan dalil dari Quran atau Sunnah yg justify konsep Ketuanan Melayu.

Grand Marquis said...

Awak kata saya tak jawab soalan. Saya tunjukkan quote dari Sheikh Tantawi.

Apakah kata-kata Sheikh Tantawi boleh kita ambil sebagai dalil syarak?

Itulah sebabnya saya kata, kena jawab dulu, adalah persaudaraan dalam Islam ini persoalan syarak atau persoalan duniawi.

Saya mintak awak tunjukkan dalil yg mengatakan menggunakan perkataan "saudara" itu salah. Awak belum buat begitu.

Kalau awak jawab soalan di atas, insya Allah yang ni akan terjawab.

Ya, itu memang persepsi saya.

Kalau dah berdasarkan persepsi awak, memang tak yah cakap apa-apa. Setiap orang berhak terhadap persepsinya tersendiri. Cuma yang malang ialah awak membina persepsi buruk terhadap bangsa awak sendiri berdasarkan satu dakwaan palsu.

Tunjukkan dalil dari Quran atau Sunnah yg justify konsep Ketuanan Melayu.

Soalan ini adalah soalan loyar buruk yang kita semua tahu jawapannya. Memang tiada dalil yang khusus. Tapi apakah salah disisi Islam kita menjaga hak-hak penduduk asal sesebuah negara tanpa kita menafikan hak orang lain? Cuma masalah awak ialah kefahaman awak tentang ketuanan Melayu adalah macam KKK. Jadi macammana kita nak capai kesefahaman kalau konsep asasnya pun dah terpesong.

muhammad said...

"Apakah kata-kata Sheikh Tantawi boleh kita ambil sebagai dalil syarak?"

Sheikh Tantawi adalah authority figure. Tak semestinya pendapat beliau betul, tapi tak semestinya kita boleh ignore saja semata2 sebab bertentangan dgn kepercayaan kita.

Menjadi prinsip yang diterima oleh semua ulamak bahawa dalam hal-hal keduniaan , kedudukan asal setiap perkara dan urusan yang berkait dengannya adalah HARUS sehingga terdapat bukti yang jelas yang menunjukkan percanggahannya dengan Syarak sama ada dari segi prinsipnya atau terlibat dengan perkara-perkara yang dilarang atau diharamkan.

Tugas awak adalah membawa bukti yg jelas penggunaan perkataan itu HARAM. Susah ke?

"Itulah sebabnya saya kata, kena jawab dulu, adalah persaudaraan dalam Islam ini persoalan syarak atau persoalan duniawi."

"Kalau awak jawab soalan di atas, insya Allah yang ni akan terjawab."

This is for you to answer. Awak asyik kata itu salah, tunjukkan bukti yg mengatakan ia salah, tak kiralah dari segi syarak atau duniawi. Jangan nak mengelak2 pula. The burden of proof is on you.

"Kalau dah berdasarkan persepsi awak, memang tak yah cakap apa-apa."

Saya berhak meyuarakan pendapat saya. Atau dah jadi resam umno, yg tak sependapat patut didiamkan?

"Cuma yang malang ialah awak membina persepsi buruk terhadap bangsa awak sendiri berdasarkan satu dakwaan palsu."

Bezakan antara bangsa dan konsep.
Bezakan antara dakwaan palsu dan pendapat.

"'Tunjukkan dalil dari Quran atau Sunnah yg justify konsep Ketuanan Melayu'.

Soalan ini adalah soalan loyar buruk yang kita semua tahu jawapannya."

Saya tak expect awak akan bawa hujah ttg Ketuanan Melayu. Yang saya mahu adalah dalil dari nas yg mengiyakan konsep racial supremacy, atau sekurang2nya yg sesuatu bangsa lebih baik dari bangsa lain. Takkan itu pun tak faham?

"Tapi apakah salah disisi Islam kita menjaga hak-hak penduduk asal sesebuah negara tanpa kita menafikan hak orang lain? "

Betulkah kita tak menafikan hak orang lain? Jangan mengarutlah, jalan tar, baja subsidi dan bantuan one-off pun tak diberi kalau bukan umno, dan itu sesama melayu.

Jawab soalan2 tu dan for once, jangan mengelak.

muhammad said...

Grand Marquis, bila nak jawab ni?
Post TB lain boleh pulak dia menjawab tu.

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