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Wednesday, September 29, 2010

Challenge to an Open Debate with Raja Petra on the Issue of Hudud/Shariah

Raja Petra in his latest article decided not to answer my argument, instead creates a “fictitious” Tulang Besi and attacked that fictitious “Tulang Besi” without an ounce of mercy.

I do not blame him for doing so because that is what we have come to know in the world of Psychology as “Defence Mechanism”. When under threat, defence mechanism will kick in automatically. It's beyond his control.

If Raja Petra was writing from his heart or from his mind, he would have chosen to at least address the argument I presented and NOT attack a fictitious TUlang Besi. He would have addressed these facts that I had presented in my earlier postings:

1.0 Shariah has been in practiced for 1400 years ago and continues to be in practice to the present day
2.0 Islamic Penal Code was removed forcibly by the Colonialists when Muslim lands were invaded by the Europeans i.e. English, French, Belgians, Dutch, Americans etc.
3.0 The Muslims themselves were not the ones removing the Islamic Penal Code from their societies or communities. They were forced to do so by their colonial masters
4.0 And another fact I did not add in my original posting is that Islamic Penal Code has made a comeback and more and more Muslims wants the Islamic Penal Code to be implemented.
5.0 The Susilawati case falls under QISAS and not HUDUD. Raja Petra clearly do not know where the case of Susilawati should be classified showing his deep ignorance of the Islamic Shariah he is criticizing
6.0 His usage of the history of Christianity to criticize the Islamic law is clearly a sign of abject ignorance of the Islamic Shariah. The Islamic Shariah DOES NOT FOLLOW the same historical as Christinanity. In fact, it is miles apart.

The arguments presented above were largely ignored by Raja Petra. Instead he went on a character assassination routine labeling me as this and that, which is all UNTRUE.

The truth is Raja Petra is TAKEN ABACK by the simplicity of the argument I presented. The fact I presented is simple and common knowledge to all that has a fully functional brain. It doesn’t take a person with PHd in Islamic history or law to acknowledge it.

Except, of course, Raja Petra.

So, in the interest of the TRUTH I hereby CHALLENGE RAJA PETRA to a PUBLIC DEBATE. I am willing to fly up to London just as long the debate is a reality.

I am also willing to debate Raja Petra on the issue of Al Hadeeth An Nabawi and it’s legality in the Islam. So let’s settle this issue like men, not like children.

My email is Send me an email RPK, if you think you are on the side of the truth. We can broadcast this debate over the internet and let the world see and hear. Let the world decide whether Tulang Besi is really what Raja Petra had accused him of or that Raja Petra is lying through his teeth.

It's time for Raja Petra to show the people what he's made of.

Tulang Besi

p.s. your comment below from your blog:

written by Super Admin, September 29, 2010 22:38:02

Dear 'guest' a.k.a. Tulang Besi (yes, we know this comment was posted by you), do you mean where you said, "It so happens, the crime of murder falls under QISAS and not HUDUD"? That is a fact or your opinion? Many jurists say you are wrong.

I did not make this comment that you are so angry with. Please stop slandering me.

Freedom to oppose as long as you agree with me

Tuesday, 28 September 2010 Super Admin

What some people in PAS can’t seem to understand is that PAS is a political party. And as a political party it has every right to propagate and promote its political ideology. And in the case of PAS it is Islamic politics. But PAS can’t deny Malaysians their rights as well. And this right is to reject the PAS brand of politics in favour of some other political ideology.
Raja Petra Kamarudin
I was wondering when Rahman Celcom a.k.a. Tulang Besi would crawl out of his hole in the ground. In case some of you are not aware, Rahman was the person who revealed that Ustaz Hadi Awang, Mustaffa Ali, Hassan Ali and a few other top PAS leaders were engaged in secret talks with Umno soon after the March 2008 general election.
People like Rahman and those of his ilk have only one view. And that is if you agree with everything they say, then you are learned (ulamak). If, however, you disagree with what they say, then you are ignorant (jahil).
Your status -- whether you are a learned or an ignorant person -- depends on whether you agree or disagree with what these people think and say. In my case, since I disagree with them, then I am an ignorant person.
It does not matter where I studied. It does not matter how long I studied. It does not matter from whom I studied. It does not matter how many books I may have read and who wrote those books. I am learned only if I agree with their opinion and am ignorant if I do not.
These people are of the view they have the right to propagate, propose, promote, etc., their brand of politics. In this case it happens to be Islamic politics. You and I, however, do not have the right to reject their brand of politics. You must agree with them and not reject them or dispute what they say.
Oh, it’s not that they do not believe in freedom of speech, expression, opinion, association, or whatever. They do. But this freedom is only allowed as long as you too share their views as to what is right and wrong and what is permitted and not permitted.
For example, if they oppose Ketuanan Melayu, and you too oppose Ketuanan Melayu, then they allow you the freedom to oppose Ketuanan Melayu. Your freedom extends to only those areas of ‘common interest’. But once you part company on certain issues then you forfeit your right to this freedom.
Another thing these people believe in is that they have a right to impose their opinion on you. They have a certain opinion and you must accept this opinion. You may not disagree with what they think. Malaysia may be a democracy. But democracy is only allowed as long as you do not disagree with their opinion.
Think what you want. Say what you want. Just make sure you think and say what they too think and say and not opposite to that.
This is the mentality of Rahman Celcom and those of his ilk. And the fact that they tolerate other religions -- although tolerate is something you do when it is a nuisance -- proves that they are very reasonable people.
J. Hussain wrote:
“In Islamic law, crimes are classified in three ways: hudud, qisas (and) Ta’azir...Hudud crimes are those specifically mentioned in the Koran as transgressing the limits which God himself has placed on people's behavior. The hudud crimes are: theft, highway robbery, drinking alcohol, unlawful sexual intercourse and false accusation of unchastity. Some jurists also include murder and apostasy (al-riddah) among the categories of hudud crimes.”
Schacht wrote that hudud is reserved for crimes against Allah for which there can be no mercy or judicial discretion.
Further, Al-Awwa adds “unlawful rebellion” to the list of hudud crimes.
Schacht sets out the specifics of huhud:
“The death penalty either by stoning (the more severe punishment for unlawful intercourse) or by crucifixion or with the sword (for highway robbery with homicide); cutting off hand and/or foot (for highway robbery without homicide and for theft....”
Schacht also confirms the rigidity of Islamic law; that hudud is meted out as:
“... a right or claim of Allah, therefore no pardon or amicable settlement is possible.”
However, in some cases, Muslim law allows a criminal defendant to pay off the victim (diyya) and thus, to escape punishment; an option obviously only available to the wealthy.

* Al-Awwa, Muhammad Salim, “The Basis of Islamic Penal Legislation”, published in The Islamic Criminal Justice System (Rome: Oceana Publications Inc., 1982), page 127
* Duhaime, Lloyd, Legal Definition of Ta’azir
* Hussain, J., Islamic Law and Society (Sydney: Federation Press, 1999), page 134
* Schacht, J., An Introduction to Islamic Law (Oxford: Clarendon Press, 1964), page 175
Raja Petra went to town attacking the PAS Youth Chief for suggesting Hudud as an alternative. My initial response is : AT LEAST SOMEONE IS THINKING OF A SOLUTION TO THE WORSENING CRIME PROBLEM in Malaysia.
Instead of providing a sound alternative, RPK chose to redicule the PAS Youth Chief.
He went to cite the failure of Christian laws in Europe from the history of Christianity. The trouble with this argument is that the same cannot be said about Islamic laws or Hudud. The Islamic Penal Code has been in practiced for 1400 years and NO ONE complained about it's implementation.
The removal of Islamic Penal Code from the lives of Muslims are mostly the handiwork of Colonials like British, Russians, France, Belgium, Dutch etc when Muslim Lands were invaded by them.
In fact, in India, women were prevented from getting inheritence from their fathers because the Common Law of Britain forbids any inheritance to women, at that time, when British first invaded India. For a few hundred years before that women were getting inheritance without any hinderance because they were subjected to Shariah Laws.
So, there lies Raja Petra's main weakness in his argument: he cites examples from the history of CHRISTIANITY which DIFFERS greatly from the history of Islam and Islamic Penal Code.
As far as history has shown, Islamic Penal Code is practiced by Muslims for the last 1400 years and no one complained about it despite the coming and going of Muslim rulers throughout the ages.
So, i beg Raja Petra to come up with a better argument to negate the effectiveness of Islamic Penal Code.
Oh, and Raja Petra also made this argument:
If this is true then why quote the example of the murder of Datuk Sosilawati Lawiya? This woman was allegedly killed by Indian Hindus, not by Malay Muslims. And since Hudud applies only to Muslims then it does not matter whether Malaysia does or does not implement these Islamic laws. It would not have deterred these Indian Hindus from killing Datuk Sosilawati Lawiya because they would have been exempted from these laws anyway.
It so happens, the crime of murder falls under QISAS and not HUDUD. And trust me, anyone would agree to QISAS regardless of their religion.
As for me, if a Jewish gentleman name Noah Feldman who actually thinks that Islamic Penal Code is good and practical.
Funny, a guy like RPK who claims to be Muslims, giving hell about Islamic laws while a Jewish professor from Harvard wrote and article in the New York TImes to defend the Shariah.
How the world has turned upside down. Did I mention the Jewish guy is a professor of law from Harvard?
Tulang Besi a.k.a Rahman Celcom

ps i've written before about Raja Petra's shallowness in understanding Islam and the Islamic Penal Code. No matter what RPK says, majority Muslims supports the Shariah and wants it's implementation. Hell, even in Britain, the Shariah is being practiced albeit still limited.


Warga Malaysia said...

But you did said "no one objected to Hudud"?

Anonymous said...

Pundek looney bin mongrel hybrid raja poongir pootra knows nothing lah bro...3 years ago,this mat salleh celup was linked with a psycho called anti jihadist dat nearly sent this retard anglo mongrel to jail(anti jihdist was probably arranged by mongrel's guru mamakchoot kutty frm perdana foundation)..and since this bozo drunkered wants to be mr.somebody of this country(by rallying drunken sikhs,loyar beruks,pub n bistro anglo zombies,n kena rasuk "mohini" verrargal hindraf talivar uthaykuamr n watha moorthy,sultan mydins,n zaid ibrahim), he needs to publicise,promote his "intellectual brilliance"..the easiet way to do is by attacking the malays,islam becos in his mentalscape,muslim,islam,malays,syariah laws r primitive,dah expire,tak bernilai,didnt contibute anything to this earth,and responsible for lots of mayhems,etc etc..

Anonymous said...

Aku pun pembaca setia Malaysia Today.Tapi dalam kes ni aku pun tak setuju dgn RPK.Bagi aku undang2 Allah adalah "supreme" tiada wujud persoalannya samada kita suka ataupun tidak. Kalau tak suka tak payah cari alasan keluar saja dari islam!!(full stop)

Anonymous said...

True islam and Hinduism belum establish lagi.The Vedic/Upanishad and even the golden period of Islam were initial indications n signs for a greater/glorious tomorrow.Go ask the super yogis,n they will reveal that true islam n hinduism(both r categorised as sanatan dharma/laws of the eternal supreme) is TRUTH CONSCIOUSNESS AND POWER!

Grand Marquis said...

RPK Spot on TB attitude
Oh, it’s not that they do not believe in freedom of speech, expression, opinion, association, or whatever. They do. But this freedom is only allowed as long as you too share their views as to what is right and wrong and what is permitted and not permitted.
For example, if they oppose Ketuanan Melayu, and you too oppose Ketuanan Melayu, then they allow you the freedom to oppose Ketuanan Melayu. Your freedom extends to only those areas of ‘common interest’. But once you part company on certain issues then you forfeit your right to this freedom.

TB supports the accusation of Najib as the killer of altantuya, even without proof or witness. RPK too, so, they were friends. TB supports the accusation of Saiful of affairs with the on lady and RPK is the one who started it. So they were friends. And the best thing is that they both are not subjected to Qazaf (accusing chaste woman of committing adultery), but both want Saiful to be punish under Qazaf of accusing "chaste" Anwar Ibrahim of sodomy.

TB is anti BN, so does RPK. Whatever and whenever RPK accuse BN of anything, doesn't matter if it is true, false, without proof, TB will happily agree with RPK, and so they were friends. Haven't I cited enough examples?

So today TB is at war with RPK. When RPK speaks about Islam, he either lied or have shallow understanding (well this is agreeable). But when RPK speaks about BN, he will not lie and all are truth.

Well this is the true face of TB, selective judgment at his best.

Anonymous said...

Wats the hukum2 n agama of trees,ants,batu,angin,water,mountains,flowers,space,heavens,n hells,mamalia,bukan mamalia?

Anonymous said...

kesian @ Anglo cukoo RPK's "mole" Zaid Ibrahim..this "pro human rights" dulu cakap he wans to be a "comman man" @ PKR..tak nak bertanding for jawatan..2day,this kelante fukker is crying like a baby..accusing this fella dat fella for tossing his toys n putings frm his suspects ,RPK "planted" him in PKR becos 1.RPK failed to swing peoples vote for "reforming UBN/Sultans..2.RPK dah kena terajang frm every angle,including frm his HINDRAF buddies(who r typical talam 2 muka,2 headed snake malayalis),so Raja Footra needs zaid to somehow "takeover" the leadership of PKR thru drunked chunni mairendis like "slow hand slow brain" haris Ibrahim,human shit rights activists,secular zealots,anglo whores n bums 2 fullfil Raja Bersiong Pootra's agenda to be the Godzila of Malaysia ..

Anonymous said...

Saya ingin mengucapkan syabas kepada Tulang Besi kerana berani kerana Allah.Saya pun suka membaca Malaysia Today dan salah seorang peminat RPK tetapi pada saya nobody is perfect except Allah dan demi kebaikan Pakatan rakyat memang perlu kita nasihat menasihati.
I would also like to apologise if anyone gets offended by my comments.Thanks.

Anonymous said...

//Ireland nationalised its second-largest bank today and pumped billions of euros into the rest of its beleaguered financial sector, just a day after mass street protests in Dublin against public spending cuts to pay for the bank bailouts.

Allied Irish became the fourth bank to be nationalised by the Fianna Fáil-led government while the publicly owned Anglo Irish Bank, the country's largest, was told it needed at least another €7bn (£6bn) of taxpayer funds to stay afloat.//


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