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Wednesday, August 5, 2009

DAP Supported the Liqour Control Ruling in Shah Alam

The recent “control” of liquor ( or some people call it ban) in Shah Alam has gotten some people to talk question the need to respect the rights of the minority.

For instance, Tony Pua says in his website ():

“Instead we seek to protect the rights of the Malaysian minorities and seek reasonable measures to be implemented to achieve the objective of all parties and such reasonableness cannot be achieved via indiscriminate raids and blanket bans.”

My question to Tony Pua is, do we protect the rights of the minority up to the point where we deny the rights of the majority? In truth, the MBSA ruling DOES NOT undermine the rights of the minority at all.

Why? Based on my teleconversation with a friend of mine who sits on the MBSA board, the “ruling” only applies to convenience stores, Muslim restaurants and grocery stores.

Furthermore, the real motivation of the ruling is complaints from many parents in the area of their children having access to alcoholic beverages during which their parents are off at work. Already parents are burdened with financial stress and inability to spend more time with their children. Now, they have to worry about their children being exposed to intoxicants which are easily accessible at the local convenience stores.

Tony Pua seems to exhibit his ignorance of the law

He says:

Secondly, the local councils are not empowered to raid such stores to enforce laws which doesn't exist or to act on behalf of any Islamic enactments in the state.

Local councils conducting such raids will only lead to the state government being sued for breaching the laws of the land, resulting in unnecessary compensation to the aggrieved parties. Hence any decision to return the illegally seized goods to their respective owners is absolutely correct and must be upheld.

Whatever it is, Tony Pua will find himself at odds with the MBSA Legal Advisors. To quote a simple example, Kelantan state government has been controlling number of liquor and gambling premises through the same mechanism used by MBSA. And it has been 18 years now and yet there has been ZERO legal action against the various Kelantan local governments. I think Tony Pua needs to check with his own legal advisors and if need be sack him.

The truth is, liquor with alcohol content of less than 8.8% falls under the purview of Local Government’s Premise Licensing regulations. In the case of MBSA, they have made the rule stricter by making sure liquor be sold only at establishment not visited by Muslims. Even in Muslim areas, liquors are allowed to sell in Chinese and Indian restaurants or clubs. It is only prohibited in convenient stores, grocery stores and Muslim restaurants.

Tell me, how is this AN INFRINGEMENT OF MINORITY RIGHTS. What the MBSA is doing is simple following the wishes of the majority taxpayers in the interest of easing the burden of parents in the area.

Ronnie Liu should also get his facts straight.

He is quoted as saying:

“Contrary to press reports there was no full board meeting which unanimously sanctioned a ban on the sale of beer in Muslim majority areas in Shah Alam.”
This was confirmed by the mayor Mazalan Md Noor, who added the seizure of the beer was not sanctioned and the legality of the seizure is questionable.”


Such ruling was sanctioned in a full-board meeting last years and it was even supported by the DAP rep in the MBSA.
I think this issue is blown out of proportion. The MBSA is just respecting the wishes of the taxpayer.
I myself is a taxpayer in MBSA and I give my unequivocal support to such ruling. Ronnie Liu and Tony Pua has disrespected my wishes and as such if they pursue such course of action.

Hasan Ali’s Press Conference is Uncalled for

It’s true. I disagree with what Hasan Ali did. He should not have organized a press conference to address this issue. He can bring this matter up in the exco meeting.
But, MBSA ruling has the support of everyone in PAS, whether they support Pakatan Rakyat or not.

Such resistance from DAP and liberals will only make the “UMNO fraction” in PAS more relevant and seen to be more credible. It will result in more and more PAS members believing in the UMNO-PAS axis or solution in their quest to uphold Islam.
Especially when this particular ruling from MBSA does not undermine the “minority’s rights in anyway whatsoever. It is only preventing liquor from being sold to Muslims. That’s all.

So, Ronnie Liu and Tony Pua’s tirade and inaccurate assessement of the situation will only embolden the Pro UMNO faction in PAS. That explains why Hasan Ali opts to make this issue public rather than playing the issue according to normal practice and procedures.

Hasan Ali and gang opted for a public press conference such as this to further embolden his pro UMNO faction within PAS. In truth, the MBSA ruling was
Tulang Besi
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  1. Hasan Ali is addressing the wrong problem. Therefore the solution is wrong.

    The issue is the illegal sales of liquor to Muslim and children. The offender is the merchant. Step up the enforcement on this illegal sales.

    If the basis to ban the sales of liquor is because that it is in a Muslim majority area, I guess that the ban can also be implemented nationwide since whole country is a Muslim majority area.

    Go for the root of the problem and not by implementing a general solution.

    I'm not supporting a blanket ban in Shah Alam because if I give you one inch, next time you will ask for one foot.

  2. swifz,

    The same can be said about liqour sales.

    If now u allow underage drinking, what's next

  3. Hasan Ali DID address the right issue which is STOP MEDDLING WITH THE ENFORCEMENT PROGRAMME RONNIE LIU!

    Enforcement officers should be allowed to do their work without fear of the wrath of the government of the day.

    Way to go Hasan Ali. Clean Up PR act before the RAKYAT clean-up PR. Like Zul Kulim said.

  4. If there are proof that shop-owners are selling alcoholic beverage to Muslims, take action against them for that.

    If there are proof that shop-owners are selling alcoholic beverage to underage customers then take action for that. Also take action against the parents of the kids for being absent, lazy, and/or stupid.

    But to restrict sales merely because it is a "Muslim majority" area (whatever that means) is frankly short-sighted, misguided and somewhat tyrannical.

  5. In truth, there has been numerous complaints against the store and the store has been warned 4 times before

  6. I was in India and only licenced shops were allowed to sell alcohol.

    I don't agree with not selling something non-halal because of majority being muslims. However, what harm it does if certain products are sold in certain premises only? Not all outlets sell medical drugs or TOTO numbers, do they?

    Nevertheless, there are two tricky issues that we must think about.

    1. This is a method to rile up the chinese. Not that they care about alcohol but the fear of 'the slippery slope' effect. Give-in in this matter and who knows, temples, pork, church next. Ridiculous but I am sure the media will go along this line - to discredit PAS.

    2. Then there are surely some Islamic fanatics who are also looking forward to the 'slippery slope' effect so they can satisfy their control-mania. This also should be carefully addressed.

    Nevertheless, I just hope the Chinese won't fall for this trick.

    Just remember one thing. Until there is a change in the federal level, we will never have any fair laws, justice or even hearing of muslim/non-muslim viewpoint. With the media riling up everyone - BN or PR members, Malay or Chinese - we can never have a rational discussion of anything.

  7. I am only interested in controlling underage drinking. That's all

  8. tulang besi tak balik berdemo ke....
    atau penakut pengecut...
    cakap bergema2....

  9. Instead of rushing a policy that isn't thought through and infringes on the very bedrock of the free market and the harm principle, let us consider options which are far less overarching and still achieve the same results. As I always say, the less government the better.

    All convenience stores have 24 video surveillance above the cash till. Enforcement officers can get a warrant to view these tapes and if any individual is seen to be purchasing alcohol without showing Identification that he is indeed above 18 years old, the store owner can be prosecuted from breaking a federal law.

    Also, perhaps have enforcement officers do patrols at night randomly to the suspected stores and if underage patrons are caught in the possession of alcohol nearby the store, once again prosecute the store owner.

    Just but two simple, cost effective and efficient solutions which address the problem without impinging on individuals rights.

  10. Good suggestion VIkriman,

    But the store involved have been warned so many times.

    So, it was time to act.

  11. I was right all along: PAS is double-faced! It wants a Taleban-styled Islamic state! Pathetic! When I was a Muslim, I love to drink; What I do in my persoanl life, is between me and God! You and PAS extremists want to be primitive Taleban-power maniacs enforcer; go ahead. But move to Taleban-land or Saudi Arabia! Tony Phua is right on - DAP & PKR better not betray liberal or ex-Muslims! Thank Christ; I'm saved from this Taleban evilness!

    Katharina Sri (former: Noor Aza)


  12. "Furthermore, the real motivation of the ruling is complaints from many parents in the area of their children having access to alcoholic beverages during which their parents are off at work."

    In Malaysia isn't underage smoking a far bigger problem than underage drinking? If you called for cigarettes to be banned from the same places where alcohol should also be banned, you would appear far more sincere and genuine.

    My question to you is this: what are you actually trying to achieve? If you really want to prevent kids from purchasing alcohol, then here is what I propose.

    1) Introduce a "responsible service of alcohol" training scheme for anyone who wants to sell alcohol - make it a requirement of the liquor license. The municipal council can charge for the training, and let the cost be passed on to alcohol consumers, it shouldn't be too high.

    2) This training scheme must emphasize that everyone must be card-checked, with IC/drivers license/passport, and they must not sell to Muslims, minors, and most importantly they must not sell to anyone who obviously already drank too much. Training can include how to handle belligerent customers, local police station numbers, etc.

    3) The card-checking must be strictly enforced: and emphasize that EVERYONE must be card-checked, no exceptions, even regular customers, even 50 year old chinese uncles (who could be Muslim anyway).

    4) Enforcement officers can easily spot-check that sellers are card-checking everyone - just try to buy and see if kena check la! Can do every day on the way to lunch or kopi break.

    5) If they are caught not card-checking, then can give a small fine, but most importantly is record it. I think a strict 3-strikes policy is acceptable. After 3rd time caught not card-checking, then revoke the liquor license.

    6) If they are actually caught selling alcohol to a minor, immediate revocation of the license and a hefty fine.

    Do you think this would work? If so, then we can implement this in every Pakatan state, not just in designated Muslim areas (as if non-Muslim families don't deserve these protections as well). The key is strict, universal, mandatory ID checking, with no exceptions and strict enforcement where the liquor license is at stake - 4 warnings with no serious threat no use la, must have a hammer to come down hard on them! IINM, Amsterdam has a 3-strikes policy for sale of marijuana to minors, where they don't just revoke the license, they shut the premises down for some time, so if you lease/own the lot you can't even do any other business with it for a while! Now that is a powerful incentive to keep the traders honest.

    But then, let me be blunt... this isn't really about underage drinking is it?

    I believe you will find a lot of sympathy if you say you want to combat alcoholism. That is a noble cause, and it cuts across all backgrounds and creeds. But I can't shake off the feeling that this is actually about identity. Some people want to project a Muslim identity as the de facto Malaysian identity. "We are Muslim, we don't drink alcohol, we don't need it in our shops!"... that is the hidden message that many of us pick up from some Muslim leaders. And that's what we don't like. If we focussed on problems (e.g. underage drinking) then we can work towards solutions together, but if we instead try to drive this issue as a matter of identity then we will get nowhere.

    Finally the thing that has me most worried about this is the whole "Muslim/non-Muslim area" way of thinking. Nothing good ever comes out of labeling neighborhoods according to race/religion.

  13. I would like to clarify... what PAS wanted was not the blanket ban.. but more towards limiting the sales of beer/alcoholic from any 7-11, kedai runcit and Muslim restaurant... in Muslim majority areas... Non Muslims still can go to Giant/Tesco and buy beers... At these place, there is more control on who can buy it.. no underage or Muslim can do it...

    About Hasan Ali press conference.. he did it to cut off the UMNO propaganda that PAS is just a follower with no voice in Selangor in this controversy... and these UMNO propaganda did somehow influence Malays .. especially in the rural areas...

  14. Tulang Besi said: "In truth, there has been numerous complaints against the store and the store has been warned 4 times before"

    Wow because of this one example you want to do a blanket ban?

    If this is the case then so easylah! Just paid someone to do offence and you can destroy other innocent parties.

    This concept can be applied to many scenarioes. For example:

    (1) just paid someone to act as bad teacher for Pendidikan Moral class that teaches evils. Subsequently you shout for abolish the Pendidikan Moral because it stink

    (2) just paid someone to use parang for vandal acts. Then you shout for banning parang.

    Your comment is unwise and belongs to extremist. What you don't like you shout for banned.

    Do you ever heard that a vegetarian shouts for banning meat sale?

    If you don't like it just stay away. It is plain simple. Don't force your will to another.

    One person's garbage is another person's gold

  15. tulang besi,

    Saya dah mula naik menyampah dgn DAP,mereka rasa mereka saja yg betul.Mereka sentiasa syak wasangka pd setiap yg datang dari PAS,tapi apa yg dtg dari mereka semuanya bagus.

    Kekadang saya terfikir juga,apa perlunya kerajaan PR kalau semuanya utk kepuasan mereka saja.Kita rampas arak sikit mereka marah bagai nak gila,kita berhempas pulas menentang ISA,mereka di mana dan berapa ramai mereka bersama kita?.

  16. Someone in Pakatan pls kick this Ronnie Liu in his head. I am a Chinese living in Selangor and I 110% support liquor ban in Shah Alam. People who chose to live in Shah Alam knows this is one place with no cinema, no night clubs, no lounge, no exciting night life like Bkt Bintang, KLCC area or PJ. So why disturb the peaceful lives of the people who chose a peaceful lifestyle. No alcohol also means les social problems. Doesn't this Ronnie "Gangster" Liu understand this? And nope, I am not pro BN.

    And this Liew Yuen Keong from MCA is also as idiotic as Ronnie Liu in this matter. Don't this Liew "Idiotic" Yuen Keong and Ronnie "Gangster" Liu know that liquor and alcohol will bring more harm than good to all people (especially Chinese and Indian). If this Idiotic Liew and Gangster Liu are Buddhist, go find out what are the 5 precepts. If this Idiotic Liew and Gangster Liu are Christian, go ask their Father if intoxicating the people is good.

    Really brainless leaders we have.

  17. Educate and self regulate if you want to control drinkinlah....There are worst drug addiction problems involving muslims in hand that no one is addressing. Why? Do you need Kuran to state something b4 you react. Come on lah....


  18. I believe you will find a lot of sympathy if you say you want to combat alcoholism. That is a noble cause, and it cuts across all backgrounds and creeds. But I can't shake off the feeling that this is actually about identity. Some people want to project a Muslim identity as the de facto Malaysian identity. "We are Muslim, we don't drink alcohol, we don't need it in our shops!"...

    No this is about underage drinking.

  19. .

    why bringing up this issue now?

    he is just continuing where unmo left off - hoping for the demise of PR - isnt it obvious.

    what has the previous govt or he done in the past about this issue?


  20. underage drinking! Is this not link to our bloody education system?

  21. Your statement here "Especially when this particular ruling from MBSA does not undermine the “minority’s rights in anyway whatsoever. It is only preventing liquor from being sold to Muslims. That’s all."
    The problem in Malaysia is this, "Bagi se inci ambil dua kaki".
    Perfect examples are the "NEP" nd "ISA", WHAT WERE THE PROMISES MADE? Example the when the Nep was implemented there was no mention of 30% of share holdings for bumi, contracts to be given to bumiputras only, 30% DISCOUNT TO BUMIS BUYING houses and what not, the non muslims have been bending over backwards paying taxes and what not, only to find that even their children don't get scholarships. What was promised and later hijacked and made into a grandfeeding frenzy till what you have today, WHAT WERE THE PROMISES MADE AND WHAT ACTUALLY HAPPENED? Same with the ISA, TUNKU promised that it would only be used against the communists but this later changed, everybody and anybody can be picked up and thrown into hotel Kamunting for a long 2 year holiday- Melayu cakap dan janji semua gurmah, tak bolih pakai. this epitath of white man speaks with forked tongue by the red indianns aptly applies also to the malays.
    Hari ini janji lain besok buat yang lain. So much so that we are sick and tired of all your lies. I say follow the federal constitution, you want to practice your religion carry on as long as it doesn't affect us the non muslims. Don't shove your religeous beliefs and pantangs down our throat, we have been polite long enough, to PAS I have this to say, we voted you as a pakatan partner, We did not vote you in for you to start shoving your religeous beliefs down our throats. Come next election don't be too surprised where there are PAS/ Pakatan candidate competing against BN, We the people will put up our own bangsa Malaysia candidates. If you clowns cannot get you act together PAS, VERY SIMPLE WE KICK YOU OUT OF SELANGOR. You will end up like in 2004, ending up holding only kelantan, that too with just a thread. I respect Nik Aziz- He is a man who keeps his word, but I cannot and will not believe others, why do you think we voted owerwhelmingly for Pakatan- we had enough of BN's BS, Don't think just because we gave an inch you can become a dictator and start demanding for a foot, you might very well find my foot up your butt.

  22. I think it should be banned from the homes of all the ministers for a start ?
    They all appear too intoxicated and that is why they all are talking rubbish all the times !

  23. Sahabt Kanan,

    Kau tgkla komen2 kat atas.Brp byk "berjaya" dakwah PAS lepas berjaya 8hb mac lepas.

    Itu pun kau terhegeh2 nak bela DAP.

    Tulang besi, jgn kau jd mcm ostrich..mereka ini takkan redha kat kita, samada bulan ataupun keris.

    Ingt apa Hassan AL Banna komen bila org bergaduh psl sapu kepala masa wudhu' mcm mana.kalau kau betul2 org penh ikut tarbiyyah la.

  24. Dear Tukang Besi,

    Underage drinking, underage sex, underage excesses, underage drugs ..... my goodness.

    Do we stop the sale of all kinds of knives just because some underage kids kill someone?

    Tell me what is the responsibility of parents if we leave problem of morality for society to control ?

    Religion ought to teach good followers to be good parents.
    This is one of the main purposes why people believe in God.

  25. Licensing, licensing, licensing!!!It's all about good administration and governance. So stop this crap of bashing each other (unless you're UMNO troopers!).

    We just have to enforce licensing for sales of alcohol, and limit the stocking according to the area. And all stores that carry alcohol license must have CCTV. If there's any complaints that they do not check the ID and sell to underage children, then check the CCTV. If it's true, seize the beverages. No discussion.

    We can't control morality. On one hand, the extremists want women to wear hijab and stay at home. On the other, the liberals want girls strutting around in bikinis and all-day free-flow beers! No way to please either, so do what's just and enforce licensing. Habis cerita.

  26. PAS state cheif not fit to become part of government. what he ask for ban for alcohol in majority area because out of control of some muslim youngerster to buy from convinience store.
    this action is not wisely decision.
    he should pressure state authority to catch the seller which party is selling liquor to muslim.

  27. at the same time, he should ask state to do one year programe campaign ' quit alcohol cos of unhealty' too.

  28. `luckly hassan is not malaysia HOME MINISTER. why ? if he fail to reduce criminal rate , then he will ban all gold jewelery shop, bank. and ban people to go out from home.
    stay at home is safer.
    problem solved. nobody walking outside, no jewelery shop open, so no crime loh.
    hssan said : kan senang buat pening gua.

  29. CONVINIENT STORE SHOULD provide cctv recording on selling liqour to ppl.
    not even alcohol, cigaratte too !!!
    if hassan is care about underage/muslim taking liqour.

  30. If this is about underage drinking, then why just seek solutions for Shah Alam or "Muslim areas"? Shouldn't we take care of children in other areas as well? Are non-Malay children less of a priority?

    Underage drinking is underage drinking, doesn't matter if you are Muslim or not.

    And also, are you at all concerned about underage smoking? I guarantee you that is far more rampant than underage drinking.

  31. Can somebody here clarify what constitute a Malay majority area? Rather than quarrellings over concept why not we focus into practical implementation.

    Please give an example, what would be the criteria that allows and criteria that does not allows.

    i noted Shah Alam IS malay's RESIDENTIAL area, but do not forget - it houses a lot of factories as well.

    Let us be fair and firm to all parties.


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